Relatable podcast 

Episode 39: Anxious Hearts with Rikki Cloos

Dr. Liz hangs out with Rikki Cloos, Attachment & Relationship Author, to chat all about how attachment styles impact our relationships. Dr. Liz and Rikki dive deep into the anxious attachment style specifically and discuss how it shows up in relationships. They explore how and why this type of attachment style develops, as well as ways we can heal and learn to manage it better. Dr. Liz and Rikki get super relatable about their own insecure attachment styles and healing journeys.  

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Transcript:

Dr. Liz:
So anxiety in our relationships comes up in so many ways and we often see a lot of the content that's put out there. A lot of the conversations are often around like being anxiously attached, which I want to talk about. However, anxiety comes up in relationships like way beyond being anxiously attached. What does that look like from your experience and the work that you do?

Rikki Cloos:
Oh, I love that question. Also, I don't know how much the audience knows about anxious attachment, but anxiety is a normal thing in regular secure relationships as well. So I think, you know.

Dr. Liz:
Yes.

Rikki Cloos:
Yeah. I don't think anybody is. Yeah. People don't talk about that enough. And I think people mistakenly think that if they find the right partner or they achieve the certain level of healing, but they're not going to feel a relationship anxiety anymore. And that's that could not be farther from the truth. My own partner and now and myself, I think we have a great, really beautiful relationship and I have anxiety daily about dumb stuff usually, but sometimes big stuff too. And it's just I find now the way that we address it now. Then back when I was more anxious and less aware of all this stuff. Yeah, we're just we address it in better, healthy ways. Now, it's not that it disappears.

Dr. Liz:
I love so much that you say that because so many clients, you know, say, But when is it going to go away? When am I going to just wake up and it's going to be gone? Or we see so much content on social media that's like do X, Y, and Z, and then you don't have to deal with this anymore. And it's it's just bullshit. And it's really unfair for a lot of people who are so actively engaged in the self-improvement process and the healing process. They're almost like set up with these really false expectations. And so they are constantly beating themselves up, which is actually exacerbating that anxiety, right? Because like, never can be good enough versus like you said, let's start by increasing awareness. Let's just recognize when it's happening.

Rikki Cloos:
Right. And normalize anxiety and relationships, because it's not it's not something to escape from. It's something to know how to deal with in healthy ways.

Dr. Liz:
Right? What are some of the most common ways that you see anxiety come up in relationships just across the board in a general sense?

Rikki Cloos:
Yeah. I think when I talk to people about their relationship anxiety, I feel like they're in need to control things and make things go exactly like they think it should. That makes them feel safe. That's that's pure anxiety, I think. Yeah. I mean, you know, and the way that it was described to me that I love was that spectrum of anxiety and depression. And depression is an over it's a it's living in the past and an overfocus on that and anxiety is living and focusing on the future and trying to control that so that we feel better about it. And I do see and hear people a lot. Well, what if this happens? What if what if I just do this and this and this and it'll change the future? So reminding, reminding myself and others that really all we can do is try to stick ourselves in the present. Deal with situations as they are now with the facts that we have as they are now. That's really all we can do. But that what is it? Catastrophizing, imagining the worst case scenario projected out into the future and trying to predict and control our partner so that those uncomfortable things don't happen? That's probably the biggest way that I see anxiety manifested in relationships.

Dr. Liz:
I completely agree. And I had a client just even recently talking about that, that she was struggling so much with trust. And when we really boiled it down, it really had nothing to do with her not trusting her partner and everything to do with her own anxieties and her own traumas and her what was role modeled for her, for relationships. And so if that happened with these people who are supposed to be safe, it could happen with anyone. It is the narrative that we create. Right. And so I think you're absolutely right, because when people don't make that distinction, they do try to control their partner because they're their brain. And the narrative is going to, well, they could cheat on me or what if they're cheating on me? So now I need to know where they're at. I need to track their location. I need them to text me every hour. I need all of these things that, quite frankly, somebody is going to cheat is actually not going to prevent that.

Rikki Cloos:
No, I, I had a my my partner early in our relationship. He noticed when I was trying to predict what would happen and control him in a way. And I love it. He sat me down and he said, I'm not your ex and I need you to stop treating me like I am. You need to give me the chance to prove to you who I am without you trying to predict who I'm going to be. And that really stopped me in my tracks. I didn't even realize I was doing it, which is another thing. That anxiety does it. We don't often realize that we're operating from an anxious place when we're making our decisions and having those thoughts.

Dr. Liz:
How do you help people to become aware of like, that's where the catastrophizing is coming from or that's where the really the maladaptive behaviors are coming from? How do you help them to make that connection?

Rikki Cloos:
I think with the posts on my Instagram page, I really like throwing some common scripts out, things that we tell ourselves in our heads when they see that stuff on the page and they're like, Oh, she's reading my mind. That's what I'm thinking. And I can say, These are anxious thoughts. These aren't necessary reality. I hope that that helps people realize that we shouldn't necessarily believe all the anxious thoughts that we have and that they may be coming from a place that's not necessarily reality.

Dr. Liz:
What are some common anxious thoughts that even on like a post you've done that you've referenced?

Rikki Cloos:
I think let me think of some good ones. Gosh, there's a sorry.

Dr. Liz:
Put you on the spot.

Rikki Cloos:
No, that's okay. I know. I think the idea, the thought I'm too much for my partner. That's a really common one that comes back over and over again when really I mean, the right person with the right coping skills and good communication is going to tell you and what you're doing is excessive and how it's affecting them. I think it's it's tough to be too much with the right person because they're going to let you know, hey, what's happening here is not working. Let's figure something else out. What else? I I'm always sad when people say that they feel like they want too much, too, because it's I feel like that's pretty tough to do in relationships, too, considering there's somebody out there who probably wants the same level of interaction and closeness that you do. And you probably shouldn't shame yourself for what you want.

Dr. Liz:
I find that interesting. I have a post that is, it doesn't make you needy. If for something like that is the prompt of it. And it's always so interesting to me how many people are just like so grateful to have that normalize. Like, Oh my God, you don't like you don't know how many times my ex told me this or their current partner said because I wanted, you know, one of the things that I list that that made me needy. And I always find it simultaneously fascinating. The other set of comments where it's like, well, no, that actually does make you needy or no, that means you need help or no, that means there's something wrong with you. And I'm always like, okay, so let me not psychoanalyze the comments here, but right now, like there's often so much as you're saying, like the right person will show up for those needs and will be able to will be happy to meet those needs and to hold safety for that.

Rikki Cloos:
But I overheard or they or the right person can let you know, hey, I see your request and I'm not capable of giving you this thing, but I'm just letting you know that I see you and I hear you, and it's okay for you to want that. But I can't. I can't offer you that thing.

Dr. Liz:
Yes. And that is also such a good point. And and to normalize that, that's okay for some.

Rikki Cloos:
And that's okay, too.

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then that creates this acceptance or change is the term that I often use for people. You know, when you're expressing a need, your partner gets to decide. They get to like accept that and decide they're going to meet it or they're going to say, I can't. And then you get to take that response and you get to decide what to do with that response. Because I hear clients say a lot, Well, they refuse to meet my needs, like there's nothing I can do about it, but there's a lot you can do about it. In the end, trying that doesn't feel that way. But I mean, even if the do something about it is that we change our perspective or that we change the relationship where, you know, I think that usually there is something within their circle of control.

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Rikki Cloos:

Mm hmm. Absolutely. It's so tough for the anxiously attached, though, because we're outsourcing all of our power and control. You know, we want other people to take care of us because we don't feel like we're capable of taking care of ourselves and our own needs. I and I try to talk about that a lot on my page, too, about there's so much that we can do for ourselves, not in a way that we are okay. I mean, some level of interdependence is a wonderful, beautiful thing. But I think this attackers need to realize that sometimes we're operating at a level of zero autonomy, and that's why we feel so at the mercy of our partner. You know, hey, I'm feeling lonely. Hey, I need some comfort. And if we're giving ourselves 0% and expecting them to fill us up to 100, that some? Yeah. That can be really problematic.

Dr. Liz:
Quite the feat for everyone involved. Can you explain for our listeners like how you would define anxious attachment or an individual who's anxiously attached? What does that look like and where does that kind of come from?

Rikki Cloos:
Yeah. Okay. Since we're kind of off the cuff here and not, yeah, I'm not going to be reading off anything scientific, but I, I always, I always caution people against calling themselves anxiously attached when they simply have lots of needs or are worried about things in relationships. Because like we said in the beginning, that's totally normal. Anxious attachment itself would be when we find ourselves with intrusive thoughts about getting closeness to happen, when when things aren't necessarily worth worrying about, we're kind of inventing a lot of these anxieties. We are in fairly normal and healthy situations and we're still feeling great anxiety about it or we're very busy chasing super unavailable, emotionally unavailable partners, and we don't see anything wrong with that.

Dr. Liz:
Hmm. And where do you kind of from your experience, where do you see this type of attachment style developing from? So we know from a broad sense it's coming from unmet needs and childhood and things of that nature. But when people lean more into the anxious, where do you see that coming from?

Rikki Cloos:
I think the I think the biggest contributor is a lack of self trust and a lack of self confidence when when we aren't there for ourselves, when we don't feel confident that we can take care of ourselves. This comes from a place of very low self-worth, usually to yeah, that propensity to outsource that all of our needs to turn partners into need fulfilling machines. That would be, that would be that would be the things that create anxious attackers. Of course, that's made in childhood most of the time. But I've been reading things too lately that talk about our early romantic experiences having a big profound effect on on how we view romance and intimate relationships too.

Dr. Liz:
So elaborate a little bit on that in in terms of even how that partner maybe showed up for us or what that dynamic was like, you're saying kind of set the stage.

Rikki Cloos:
Yeah, I think you can you can have fairly secure parents and connections with your parents, but if every romantic relationship you've ever had goes south very quickly or you're cheated on all the time, and it would be hard for even a very secure person to trust that romantic relationships are a place where their needs are going to be met and received well.

Dr. Liz:
Do you feel like this is just curiosity? But if somebody really did have consistently secure parents because we know that there's the whole population of people, which I was in until about my mid-twenties when I got hit with a ton of bricks in the face by a therapist who was like, By the way, your childhood wasn't that great? And I was like, Oh shit. Oh no.

Rikki Cloos:
So that could be it too. Right. Yeah. I come to think of it, I know I had the same experience, thought I would get asked in therapy, like, how was childhood? And I was like, That was great. It was fine. But then when you dig in, maybe it's not. Yeah, I definitely think it's it's definitely more way more childhood experiences and our upbringing and wiring when we're very young that that defines that.

Dr. Liz:
Well and I just think that if, if we really did have safe and secure relationships, we probably wouldn't be drawn repeatedly to the cheater. Right? And so I.

Rikki Cloos:
Oh, that's true.

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, I do. But okay.

Rikki Cloos:
Well, I was going to say, though. Secure people cheat, too, though, you know, like, that's true. Just because you're with a secure person, it doesn't necessarily mean that relationship trauma or and big disconnect isn't going to happen. So anyway, maybe that's where those studies are talking about. But I see what you're saying, that sometimes people think and report that their childhood was great and very secure and it might not be.

Dr. Liz:
And because of all of the the emotional neglect or the covert trauma or the things that surely research hasn't really started to identify until recent years. And so and part of that is also the narrative we've had to create for ourselves to survive it, that like.

Rikki Cloos:
Yeah.

Dr. Liz:
This isn't that bad, that I'm scared every single day. Like, you know, it's our.

Rikki Cloos:
Story, right? Yeah, Yeah, I can see that.

Dr. Liz:
But then we, of course, carry that with us into these adult relationships, chips and the anxiety. And I identified as more avoidance in my I was married when I. Yes. Well, it's interesting because from 18 until just a few years ago, I was married, so for almost 17 years. And I definitely showed up as more avoidant in that dynamic. But I think the other thing that a lot of people don't realize about attachment styles is that based on the partner with, there can be a difference in how you show up and subsequently.

Rikki Cloos:
Yes, that's true. A very avoidant partner can make even the most secure person feel a little bit anxious and act a little bit anxious.

Dr. Liz:
Exactly. And that is so important to note, too, that I saw and maybe it was even one of yours. I saw a poster about that recently that was talking about how, like, sometimes the behaviors of a partner can make you behave in a certain way. You know what I mean? That that doesn't mean you're necessarily anxiously attached or buoyantly attached, but the behaviors can lead to those responses.

Rikki Cloos:
Mm hmm. Yep. And yeah, because the relationship itself is its own its its own new thing, you know, for ourselves and our partner is themselves. But then together, we're something else completely. And the way that we feel and act is a is a reflection of the way that they're feeling and acting as well.

Dr. Liz:
Yeah. Yes. How do you define. So I love that you said, you know, secure partners can cheat to like to shame. Great point. How do you define a secure partner, secure attachment style? Like obviously not perfect as the literature or social media literature suggests. How do you define it?

Rikki Cloos:
Secure attachment is a comfort with intimacy. And that doesn't necessarily just mean somebody who loves hugs and kisses. A comfort with intimacy would be somebody who is able to receive your need for reassurance, your words of anxiety. If you want to reveal something difficult to them or something that you're upset about and they can receive that calmly and empathetically, that would be a that's a secure that's a secure partnership, I would think. And it would be tough to feel bad or uncomfortable with with intimacy with someone like that.

Dr. Liz:
Right. And that. Do you ever do the Diane Pull Heller attachment quiz? Have you ever times.

Rikki Cloos:
Every now and then. Yeah. I like to retest myself regularly to see where I'm at.

Dr. Liz:
So you're familiar though, then, with the pie chart that yeah, I love that visualization of attachment styles because it really can show that you can be over 50% secure. So like, okay, your default maybe is secure, but then for you to also be able to see, but this is how you might show up when triggered or wins overwhelmed or.

Rikki Cloos:
Oh, totally. I know I hate it when people they slap their label on themselves. I am anxious. I am afraid. I hate that because it is such a dynamic thing. We have pieces of all of it. I am by far mostly secure, but when the stuff hits the fan, I'm as anxious as they get.

Dr. Liz:
So yeah. What type of work do you or have you done around that? So as you increase your awareness around showing up with these anxious tendencies, how did you really start to reprogram that and start to And I get that it's not perfect, and I'm the first to admit I am far from perfect, so that is not it at all. But what did you start to do to kind of change those behaviors?

Rikki Cloos:
I think the concepts around cognitive behavioral therapy have been huge journaling so that I can see the unhelpful thoughts that I have and addressing them directly like looking at them and saying, Why might this be false? What's another way I could think of them? Look at that. That's been so helpful. Journaling itself, whether or not I'm thinking up anything that really seems to make a difference has has really been helpful. Just being able to see my thoughts on the page, making sure that I take a big pause when I have big feelings or big thoughts that I want to express, and I sit with them for a while before bringing them to my partner. That's been really helpful or sitting with them a while before I bring them in to myself and believe them. You know, that's been yeah.

Dr. Liz:
To what might you do with them before you take them to your partner? So like if you're kind of sitting with it and processing.

Rikki Cloos:
What does that look like? I like to, I like to write them down. I like to write out worst case scenario, just to get it out of my head so that it's not circling. I like to write down what else may be true because that's not something that we think about and anxiety. Do you journal? I know that not everybody's into it and I know some people have a lot of trouble with it.

Dr. Liz:
I used to journal like a long time ago and I, I didn't get as much value out of it as I know that people do. I do suggest it as a tool to my clients, though, especially depending on what they're what they're dealing with. And as you're saying, a lot of times with the the anxious tendencies, it does it starts to twirl a lot. So like it's the spiral. And so with they can get it out onto, you know, get it onto a page, be able to see it, make sense of it. I also like it for like containment. So being able to make sense of it.

Rikki Cloos:
Oh, I love that. When you say containment, too, it makes me think some of the things that I write down don't make it to my partner. You know, I'll write it down. Oh, wow. This is one that I'm actually now that I'm looking at it on the page, I don't think I'm going to bring that to him. I think I'm just going to sit with it and figure that out on my own.

Dr. Liz:
And that's a great I mean, I think that's a great way to handle that, which is exactly my thought of like, you know, what are you doing if that information prior to bringing it to him? Because sometimes there are things that we can process through it. We can use logical self-talk, we can, you know, really challenge the perspective and then say, okay, I don't really know that I that that needs to be a him problem.

Rikki Cloos:
Yeah, absolutely. Sometimes too, I've been finding this recently some of the things that bother me that I think about sometimes your partner can't unhear some of that stuff, you know, some of the very normal relationship, anxieties and doubts that we might have aren't necessarily for them to solve, but they're not necessarily something that we need to share with them either. We have some thoughts that would maybe just disturb them more than it would do any good to bring out what I think about that.

Dr. Liz:
No, I think that's a great point and actually was something I want to talk about today because and it sounds like you might be going a little bit of a different direction, which I love. So I want to go both. But even like the accusations that happened a lot from somebody who experiences a lot of anxiety, so accusations that are unfounded, you know, that it's just like, I know you're cheating on me. I know you're texting somebody right now. I think that falls into the category of what you're describing that for, for somebody who is is loyal to you and is doing their best to show up for you and to question their character in that way because of your own anxiety. I think that would be an example of something that you can't they can't unhear.

Rikki Cloos:
Yeah, perhaps. Yeah. Although I guess if you're if you're worried about cheating or that strong, it might be it might be worth not, not accusing them of something but saying like I'm really struggling with trust and I can we have a bigger discussion on that. And I definitely want to caution people against stuffing too much down. You know, some of the things that I'm talking about are not necessarily I don't know. It's like maybe if there's maybe a kind of harmless things that your partner might do that drive you nuts, that make you think, like, why am I even in this relationship? You know, there's there's things like that that you might not want to voice out loud and you might just want to deal with on your own. If it's something if it's something in their behavior that's bugging you regularly. I see a lot of people asking me like, should I just force myself to stop worrying about this? And it's like, if it's a behavior that they're that they're doing that is bringing up relationship anxiety for you, like like they're secretively texting or they're hiding things, Like those things are absolutely worth discussing.

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, I agree. I see a lot of clients who that's not the case. So it's it's not their partners behaviors. It is like really just this really deep fear. And and when we start to and I love when they bring it to me even before, if they can kind of catch that like this is a me thing. Right. And they could and we can process through it before because usually when we use the logical self-talk and I'm big on evidence logs, so like, you know, what is the evidence to support this or what is the evidence to support that? And when they're like, well, no, I mean, they come straight home. Well, no, they, I have their passcodes. Well, no, they don't put their phone upside down, you know, like there's but it's the fear of what if this happens. But I also agree with you that I don't think that that means you need to stuff it down. Right. But you can express that fear without accusing. And I think that's really.

Rikki Cloos:
Yeah, I like that, too. And what advice would you give? That's a message I get all the time. Like I'm worried my partner's cheating on me. They don't ever give me any evidence for it. They just say that they're worried about it. What what advice would you give? Someone is a good way to address that without accusing them.

Dr. Liz:
I would encourage them to start on their own. As you were talking earlier, like take a second and really process through what are what are the behaviors? Are there are there behaviors that you're able to bring to their attention that are causing you concern? Also, going back to our earlier point, let's say your partner has a behavior of maybe like flipping their phone upside down and because of maybe your previous traumas that alerts you to their being secretive. So that means there's maybe something going on. You're allowed to address that. You're allowed to say this thing with your bothers me. But as we were saying earlier, your partner is allowed to say, I'm not doing anything wrong and I am not going to pay attention to what I do with my phone every time. So both is allowed to exist. We we hope that the receiving partner can say like, Oh, babe, I'm so sorry. Like, let me be more cognizant of that and let me support you. But that's not always going to happen. But that's where I would encourage them to start, is like, what are some of these specific behaviors that are leading you to this fear? So really sit with yourself and identify that and then articulate how you can present that to your partner in a way that is safe and that's not attacking to them. That's not attacking their character, because that's when their defense comes up.

Rikki Cloos:
Oh, totally. Have you have you read nonviolent communication.

Dr. Liz:
Bits and pieces? I have.

Rikki Cloos:
It. Oh, no, you have. I know it's kind of it's kind of dry, but it's absolute full of gems, books like that. Also, I read a lot about assertive communication to and learning, learning how to talk to my partner in ways that don't look like me pointing the finger, really open the conversation up so that it makes it safe to bring up darn near anything with him.

Dr. Liz:
What are some maybe tools that you you use along those lines in terms of when you want to present something, but you don't want to make him defensive? How might you do that?

Rikki Cloos:
Yeah, I have one kind of magic trick. I think of it assuming positive intent. And believe me, that's tougher than it sounds because when you're worked up about something, it's hard. It's hard to just start from the place that my partner wants. What's best for me and for sure. But I try to do that even when I don't believe it. So that that tends to open the conversation up in a big way. When I say like, Hey, I've been having some weird feelings about X, Y, Z, I know that you're a great guy and that you want the best for us, but I still feel like we should talk this one out because I'm losing some sleep over it. It's really hard for him or probably anybody to fight with someone when they say when they say it in that way.

Dr. Liz:
MM Yeah, starting with like, I know your heart. I know this is not your intention and I'm struggling with it.

Rikki Cloos:
Mm hmm. Yep. Yeah, that's that's probably my best biggest one I really like. I don't really need much else. When you can come into those conversations with your heart open in the first place and assuming that they're that they want the best for you and everything.

Dr. Liz:
And there's such a difference when even coming into a conversation like the energy, right? So like the words you use are a powerful thing for sure. And I statements are so powerful of starting with how you feel about something versus what they've done wrong or whatever. Or I believe that energy tone, facial expressions, body language like all of that is really going to be the biggest predictor of how that conversation goes.

Rikki Cloos:
Yeah, absolutely. And I do have a lot of people ask like, how am I going to have this conversation with them when I feel so activated and I'm so in it And I want to caution people against trying to hide that, too. I mean, I've come to my partner before, like literally shaking. I had so much anxiety about something and I just lead with that. Hey, I cannot believe how much anxiety I feel about this. I'm going to share this with you and it's not going to come out smooth and well thought out. But but let me get it out. And then and then we can talk about where to go with it from there.

Dr. Liz:
That vulnerability, though, probably. Really? Yeah. Even though it's not calm energy, it might not be scary energy either, because you can see you're coming from a place of maybe fear or versus a place of aggression would be. My guess is that kind of.

Rikki Cloos:
Totally vulnerability is a it's a big diffuser of of of conflict and for sure between partners.

Dr. Liz:
So the other aspect of anxiety in a relationship that I want to talk about is that a lot of people don't realize that anger and irritability and reactivity lashing out all of that is actually a manifestation of anxiety. And so.

Rikki Cloos:
Yeah.

Dr. Liz:
That's right. And so it gets almost like put it in its own category of like you have anger issues or you can't control yourself or without either one of them really realizing because most most people don't know, most people don't realize.

Rikki Cloos:
Oh, share the angry party, too.

Dr. Liz:
Exactly.

Rikki Cloos:
Yeah, I it was really a very big moment for me when I realized that all all these previous partners of mine who I thought were just jerks who love to hurt me, were actually coming into those situations with a lot of anxiety, too. It just looked very different from mine. That helped me to let go of a lot of anger and resentment that I had about past relationships. Realizing that angry comments were also a type of anxiety.

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, because when when we go into a red state and when our fight and flight is activated and all those biochemicals are released, it releases the adrenaline and the cortisol and all of those things, that if we had to fight somebody off like yeah, we would be able to. And so when we can't recognize, okay, I'm feeling all of these feelings of the aggression and the reactivity and the overwhelm, because I am afraid, because I'm feeling threatened, we're just focusing on what the reaction is to it versus stopping, which of course, when you're in a threat state, nobody's stopping you like. Right, a broken list. Like that's not right. It works. No. When we can develop the skills to say, okay, I am in a reactive state and it doesn't even feel safe to me. So I sure should. I'm not coming across safe to my partner. Let me take a minute to regulate this.

Rikki Cloos:
Yeah, it's so funny. Yesterday I went to pick up some food for takeout and I looked left when I was backing out of the place, but it didn't look right. And as I backed my car up, there was a guy behind me carrying his food and he was so just instantly angry. He hit my car and he was like, Hey, lady, watch where you're going, right? Just like, screamed it like other people in the parking lot were looking at me and I was so embarrassed. And at first I felt really angry at him, like, what's this guy's problem? Like, I'm not an inconsiderate driver. I did look one way. It was just an accident, not the other way. Right? But then as I was coming down, I thought, you know, that that huge display of anger is because he felt threatened, you know, like he was he literally thought his life was in danger and someone might run him over. And then it really it helped me. I thought, you know what? I don't have to be angry at that guy. I scared him. No wonder he was so upset. He probably shouldn't hit my car.

Dr. Liz:
But valid.

Rikki Cloos:
No, but. But I think that's a good thing to remember when we're facing an angry partner, too. Is that anger is, you know, and sometimes the threat that they're that they're raging against is the threat of disconnection and a rupture in the relationship. And there's really something kind of sweet about that, you know?

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, absolutely. And I think most often that is what they're raging against, that the fear of abandonment or rejection, which is the fear of disconnection and for a lot of us who struggle with insecure attachment, which everybody to some extent, but for those of us struggling. Yeah yeah. To a to a higher degree of it that it's not coming from nowhere, it's coming from the evidence logs that we've created consciously or unconsciously feeling that people aren't safe and that they can't be trusted and they are going to leave us at some point. And so it's valid to go into that threat state.

Rikki Cloos:
And it makes sense.

Dr. Liz:
It does make sense. And it's our job to figure out how to regulate it and how to not allow it to scare our partner.

Rikki Cloos:
Mm hmm. That's that's a big point that I try to make on my account, is that, like, radical self? Like, yes, we feel afraid. Yes. We have so much anxiety and it's our job to gather some tools for dealing with that and make our relationship a safe place to be.

Dr. Liz:
Yeah. What are a couple suggestions that you might have for, let's say, when a couple gets in that well, really escalate a conflict that is just both people are now in a threat state. How do you suggest that people work to Defuze.

Rikki Cloos:
Well, if it's if it's really intense or it's happening all the time, I always try to suggest couples therapy. I am not a couples therapist, but I know how wonderful that can be for relationships. That's another thing I try to do with my account is to point people toward resources that can help them in the best way. Couples therapy can really give couples some communication tools that they might not have and a safe place to sit down and and let the things out. You know, if we don't have good communication with each other, there might never be a safe place or time to let some things out that you're that you're hiding from your partner. Right. I I'm a voracious reader. I know not everyone else is, but there are so many great books out there on community, on communicating in a safe way. I encourage everyone to learn more about the different types of communication, like assertive and passive and passive aggressive. I wasn't aware of how incredibly passive my communication used to be before I before I did more research on that and how aggressive most of my past partners were and passive aggressive. When we can learn to communicate directly and assertively that cuts a lot of the issues out as well.

Dr. Liz:
Yes. No. And you're you're absolutely right. When we're not trying to be mind readers or expecting our partners to be mind readers, there is a sense of safety in that. How did you get into the the work that you're doing, you know, with your account and all of that? What drew you to that?

Rikki Cloos:
Yeah, well, you said that you were married for a long time. I was married for 12 years and when that marriage kind of fell apart after 12 years. I see this in my book, too. That's big enough that you go. I'm. I'm motivated now to learn everything I can about this stuff so that that never happens to me again. I accepted that I was at least part of it. I didn't know how much, but I wanted to learn what I did wrong so that I wouldn't repeat it. And when I read 60 books in a single year on attachment and communication and relationships and conflict, and I found after all that reading that things just got dramatically better. And as the writer, I said, I've got to tell people about this. Like, it wasn't even you know, it wasn't even the thought so much, Yes, I have something to write about. It was like my life was really kind of a struggle bus before, and it's going so well now that I really want to share that with people because I didn't have hope when I started that things would be different or better for me. I kind of I remember starting out with all my reading that I was trying to learn how to find someone better, that that was my plan. Like, I want to get really good at identifying who the best, healthiest partner would be. And through all that reading, I realized I was like, I have to I have to be that first before I can find those people and recognize them and even have something go Well, yeah, but the desire to share what I was learning with others has blossomed into the Instagram account, which I love so much. I love talking to other anxious teachers and giving them tools for dealing with it just all of their mental health accounts On Instagram. I've met so many cool therapists and coaches and there's a lot of great voices on there.

Dr. Liz:
Yes. No, I agree. It's your book. Tell everyone you know what's what it's called and where they can find it. And if you want to elaborate on that a little bit further, I would love to hear about it.

Rikki Cloos:
Sure. From all of my research and my writing, my book, The Anxious Hearts Guide was born. It's it's a collection of the best tips and advice that I found from those 60 books that I read in that in my year of transformation. And my goal was to write the tips and ideas in such a way that the every man could understand. I'm a psychology nerd, so a lot of the stuff that I was reading was really dense and very dry and not very interesting. So my goal with my book was to talk about anxious attachment and what we can do about it in a way that's really approachable, a way that's very empathetic and understanding, and in a way that can give people more books to refer to if they really want to dive in deep like I did, I love that.

Dr. Liz:
Okay, Very informative. Yeah, that's that's great. And I'm sure Ben has been helpful for so many people. As you know, I was telling you, your content is just so spot on and so helpful. And so I'm sure your book is beautiful as well. Where can people find you on social media and and do you have a website that you like the idea.

Rikki Cloos:
Okay, yeah, I'm on Instagram. I'm anxious Hearts Guide. Or they could just search for Ricky close my website is anxious Hearts Guide dot com or the anxious hearts guide on Amazon. You can find the paperbacks there on Amazon or the Kindle version. And I recently just recorded an audiobook too.

Dr. Liz:
Oh, very cool. Okay. And put it on a same book on an audio format.

Rikki Cloos:
Same book. Yep.

Dr. Liz:
Perfect. Oh, that's really cool. I'm sure people are probably very happy to have that. A lot of audio fans out there. So very cool. Ricky, thank you so much for your time today and your insight and your wisdom and I really appreciate you coming to hang out with me.

Rikki Cloos:
Yeah, thanks. You had great questions, too. I appreciate that.

Dr. Liz:
Thank you. Talk soon.