Relatable podcast
Episode 9: conflict in modern, busy couples with desi williams
Dr. Liz hangs out with Dr. Desi Williams, physical therapist, TV personality, and former college professor. Dr. Liz and Dr. Desi chat all about Desi’s dating history, as well as how she met her Cardiac Anesthesiologist fiancé on a dating app! Desi talks about the dating methods she found most effective during her time of using dating apps, including her 3-date rule, her dating prep, and how she decided who to continue seeing after the initial three dates. Dr. Desi also shares openly about her relationship with her fiancé, including areas of conflict & ways for a modern couple to stay connected (even when “busy” gets in the way). You won’t want to miss this episode all about the very relatable realities of modern-day dating and relationships.
Transcript:
Dr. Desi Williams:
Dating is a numbers game. And so you've got to expose yourself to the greatest number of opportunities to meet the right person. So I literally think I went on three dates a week for like. A. Year and a half.
Dr. Liz:
How did you have time for that with how busy you are?
Dr. Desi Williams:
It was I mean, it was exhausting, but it was also like my dinner or or I'd carve out like a coffee. Do you know what I mean? And I had a date outfit. I wore the same outfit for, like, every first date I went on to. So I didn't think about it. And it was just like, This is what I want to do. I'm going on a date. I'm going to wear this hair, so I'm going to wear this outfit. And I didn't have to. It was a no brainer for me.
Dr. Liz:
I think her mom did a good job of teaching you planning because apparently in a whole lot of areas this is relatable relationships, unfiltered. Hey, welcome to Relatable Relationships unfiltered. Today, I'll be hanging out with Dr. Desi Williams, TV personality and physical therapist. She talks about her approach to finding love with her busy lifestyle and shares an interesting three date rule. I definitely admire it, but we all know I'll never be able to comply. So, Desi, you are a busy, busy woman. You have a lot going on and not like from all different areas too, like academically, but then media professionally. How are you juggling all of it?
Dr. Desi Williams:
Yeah, I mean, my work has always kind of been like a mixed bag. I'm the type of person who's like, has a hard time saying no to an opportunity that interests me. So yeah, I run a company. I also still do some it's a physical therapy company. I also still do some treating as a physical therapist myself. I do some hosting, obviously do some reality TV. And just like time management has always been huge to me. I guess I kind of that's always been instilled in me. My mom is like a Virgo and she's very organized and I'm a Gemini, so like organization does not come naturally to me. But I've I was raised by a woman who, like kind of model like this is how you get 25 things done in 24 hours. So I just. Try. And there's no podcast two years earlier about somebody was talking about how they like schedule a nap and like, I'm that girl. I'm like, Ooh, I think today from 2 to 222, I have time for a nap and like, I'll set a timer for a 22 minute nap. But it's all about like scheduling.
Dr. Liz:
Being organized and relatable to me is that is my life too. Not like down to the nut shell of like everything for the morning from when I wake up to when I go to bed. Everything has to be. And when you're doing so many different things. And then what we're going to tie into this is talking about your relationship and how you maintain a relationship. On top of that, before we start recording it, I had asked you like, I'm sure he is just as driven. You know, I did an episode recently and she and I talked about women who are driven like you and I are attracted to the driven man. So that sometimes puts us in a little bit of a predicament, though, because when you're both that busy, it makes it hard to find time to connect. So how do you incorporate that piece into it? How do you bring your relationship into it?
Dr. Desi Williams:
Yeah, Yeah. So my fiance is a cardiac anesthesiologist while we. Yeah, Yeah. You know. And then while we were dating, he was still doing his training. He was doing this residency for a year and then a fellowship for a year. And his schedule has always been equally as crazy, if not crazier than mine. But I think for us, it's always been like, I don't know, just kind of carve out time that makes sense. Like I feel like we're both in a position that we've never guilted the other person into feeling like, you're working too much. That to me is ridiculous. And I would never make anybody feel bad for following their dreams. And I think he's kind of similar in that. And he's like, I want you to work hard. I want you to be just as dedicated as I am. But we carve out little moments like, for example, we live together now and we cook, we eat at home most nights. If we cook dinner, like we sit down at the dinner table. And even though it's only like a 15 minute dinner, you, you cook for half an hour and then you eat for ten, 15 minutes like we make the point to sit at the table, turn off the TV, and if it's just like ten, 15 minutes for us to connect as we start down food and we might be responding to emails on our phones in between. And we don't take that personally, but we like take some time to just be like, All right, let's try to connect. Let's talk about our day. Let's just like, feel like we're in this together. Yeah. So I think that's like our major thing that we've we've kind of tried to make a point of.
Dr. Liz:
So important because it becomes so easy to become just ships passing in the night when you don't intentional. You take that time, especially with such busy lifestyles. How did you guys get.
Dr. Desi Williams:
yeah, well, just like kind of flipping back to that. Yeah, it's interesting because people would always be like, I guess we're first moving in together. We've been living together for about a year now. People were telling me, like all these horror stories, they're like, my God, living together so different and not living together. Like, he's going to drive you crazy at first. And then after we moved in together, everybody was like, How is it? I was like, It's great. Like, if I'm not home, he might tidy up and I get home. It's a little bit cleaner than when I left. Like we were totally two ships passing in the night, but it was like the perfect. It was perfect. So like, I'm like, I like him more living with him and not living with him. So it's kind of like the opposite of all the horror stories that people tell us. But I wouldn't be so busy.
Dr. Liz:
I mean, that makes sense that even with living together, you're both probably not just sitting around together all the time or whatever. So that would make sense. You still have plenty of your own space, it sounds like.
Dr. Desi Williams:
Yeah, absolutely. We spend yeah, like I said, we do the dinner and then now we started doing like if I mean, there are times when he works overnight and like, I don't see him until I get home two days from now, essentially. But if we're both home at night, we do like, we'll turn off our computers, shut everything down, and like we'll sit on the couch and watch an hour television together. So that's like our other time that we're like, we're together. We're not talking because we've also both had like talking overload all day long, but we're just like, together. But you would ask how we met and we actually met like, unpopular opinion on the dating app.
Dr. Liz:
No way. Did you?
Dr. Desi Williams:
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I don't know how else a person would meet someone other than the dating app. I don't know.
Dr. Liz:
Where how the two of you leapt out to find each other on a dating app because I don't know if you've been on a dating app any time recently. Sounds like you haven't been, and I wouldn't recommend it, especially because of what you found on the dating app. There are not dozens and dozens fiancees on the dating app.
Dr. Desi Williams:
This thing I will say I kissed a lot of frogs on the way and my friends thought I was crazy, but like, I don't know who I talked to, but it was. I don't know who I talked to, but somebody explained to me like. Like anything else, it's a numbers game. Like dating is a numbers game. And so you got to expose yourself to the greatest number of opportunities to meet the right person. So I literally think I went on three dates a week for like. Okay, a. Year and a half.
Dr. Liz:
How did you have time for that with how busy you are?
Dr. Desi Williams:
It was I mean, it was exhausting, but it was also like my dinner or or I'd carve out like a coffee. Do you know what I mean? Like, for me, I don't think I hear all these horror stories of like, days, Class of 5 hours and, like, all night. And I'm like, Why would you allow that? Like, I if I went on a date, I always had an hour. I'm like, let's meet for happy hour. But I have dinner with friends at six. Like when I have dinner with friends at six or not. Like, I'm going to tell you I have a plan so this doesn't last forever. And if I like you, then guess what I can say. My friend canceled our dinner plans, so I just always, like, I didn't feel like dating would be marathons. It's like we can spend an hour together. I might hate your guts, but I might like you. And then I can maybe carve out more time. Yeah, Literally. Probably went on three nights a week. I was just, like, really dedicated to getting that.
Dr. Liz:
Let's start statistics here. How long did you do that before you found your cardiac anesthesiologist?
Dr. Desi Williams:
It was it was a long. Time, probably like a year and a half.
Dr. Liz:
You were committed to the cause.
Dr. Desi Williams:
I was committed. I mean, there were weeks, of course, where, like, I was like, I just can't this week. But if it was a week that I'm like, I'm just going to get out there and do it. I just made it up. And I had a date outfit. I wore the same outfit for like every first date. I went on to think about it and it was just like, This is what I want to do. I'm going on a date. I'm going to wear this hair. So I'm going to wear this outfit. And I didn't have to. It was a no brainer for me. It's like, I'll meet you there often an hour and a half, and then I'll go about my merry way and finish. The rest of my life. Great.
Dr. Liz:
Like your mom did a good job of teaching you planning because apparently in a lot of areas.
Dr. Desi Williams:
The other. Thing that I did, though, that people really think is psycho is most people I gave three dates to like I also gave every guy I went on if he if they, like asked me on a second date and a third date for the most part, I gave everyone. Three. Okay.
Dr. Liz:
Give me a little strategy behind that.
Dr. Desi Williams:
Like, why? Well, I feel like everyone is kind of nervous for first dates and most people don't show up as like themselves. Date one date, too. They're kind of sliding in, but they're still like they're represented, they're still showing up. They're still being their best self. And by day three, I feel like people like are starting like their quirks are starting to show. But contrary to that attitude, my fiancee, like date one, I think he was super nervous. Date two like I was okay if I date three, like he became more talkative, more himself. So I think it can go either way. Like for a narcissist, they're going to come in real hot date one and then you're going to start to see like the red flags by date three. Whereas someone like Jeremy, who's like super shy day one, I was like, There's nothing wrong with him. But like, it's not really that exciting. But like, by date three, like we have found all these commonalities and shared interests, and I don't know, I just feel like people need people just need to kind of become themselves.
Dr. Liz:
Hey, I think that's a great approach and I wish I had the patience to do that because.
Dr. Desi Williams:
I date one.
Dr. Liz:
You're not entertaining me. That's pretty much.
Dr. Desi Williams:
Going to be the end of it. So yeah, but I think that like speaks I. Used to be the same way, but I think so I also was attracted to narcissist for a long time, like driven men who are the life of the party, always the center of the room. Great networking, but I don't think they were actually a good match for me. So like the guy I'm with now was not entertaining on day one. Like I tell our people all the time. Like, it literally felt like an interview. I'd ask the question, he'd answer it. I answer the question. I'd ask another quote like it was very dull and boring. But his answers were good. They were good answers. They were answers that aligned with my values. But it was just like spicy. It wasn't all right. Like, yeah, I would not call it fun, but it was like I could see how he would make a good partner for me.
Dr. Liz:
Sure. Then did the chemistry start to roll in by the third date like that?
Dr. Desi Williams:
Yeah. But by day three, I was. I mean, he was like, he's esthetically attractive, so I was always, like, attracted to him, but it was just like. Like literally when I say it was an interview, like literally I'd ask the question and answer ask the question. Like, we did that for an hour and a half, and I was like, Am assistant cool. Now, like, do you.
Dr. Liz:
Do you give a shit about how that like, is it wait, is this going to be the first time he hears.
Dr. Desi Williams:
About you mean, no. I mean he's in that he's in the other room. So he's like literally hearing you right now. He's off work today. But he still. Yeah, yeah, he knows this is our story. It works out. You know, everything works out completely. It was supposed those days. Of your job. But yeah, over time, yeah, I developed the feelings and the butterflies, and I always kind of felt that because he was, like, hot. He's in great shape and he's really attractive. So I'm like, This guy was really hot. He was just kind of right. All of her.
Dr. Liz:
Personality part and how long it might be. How long have you guys been together now?
Dr. Desi Williams:
About three and a half years.
Dr. Liz:
okay. So. So a while and you're recently. Recently Engage. How long have you been engaged for this?
Dr. Desi Williams:
He he always tells people three months, but it's been a solid four months. So there he goes.
Dr. Liz:
Up again.
Dr. Desi Williams:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm like. No, no. It's been a minute before.
Dr. Liz:
Our wedding plan. In the midst of the chaos of your schedules.
Dr. Desi Williams:
That's something we've not been very good about. That's why I say, like, it's funny. People are like, When's the wedding? He's like, Well, we've only been engaged like two or three months. And I'm like, No, we've been engaged for we just haven't done any wedding planning. So I don't know. He's thinking about going back to school. Crazy. I know. So what's it like? What do you do for an MBA? He just wants to know more about more things. Like, again, not going to market.
Dr. Liz:
Like sure.
Dr. Desi Williams:
If I'm here for it. So it's looking like maybe summer 2024 when he has a break from school. Okay. All right. We've been we've done. No wedding planning, but the plan is to go to a resort that plans that for you and just pay them the money. And that's a good plan. So up and party. Yes. So great.
Dr. Liz:
You guys are both you own a business and in the midst of everything that you do. Tell me a little bit about that. Do you guys co co whatever be co professionals and whatever you do like does he help with the business? Do you guys do stuff together in that way?
Dr. Desi Williams:
No. Yeah. He's, I mean. Maybe, yeah, maybe in the future he will be probably more. Involved. Yeah. But at this point, yeah, his job keeps him like very, very busy. He works a ton of hours. Like more hours. Yeah. Any one person. I don't even know how it's legal, but he's worked as much as they do, so. Yeah, my life is very and my profession is very separate from is. Sometimes there's opportunity where, you know, networking opportunities come and obviously he knows a lot of positions and physicians can refer to us. But in terms of like the actual operation of the business, he has no clue and I'm fine with it. Yeah.
Dr. Liz:
What tell me a little bit about your business. What does that entail?
Dr. Desi Williams:
So it's a mobile, physical therapy, an occupational therapy business. So essentially therapists go into patients homes and provide like the same physical therapy and occupational therapy you get in the clinic, but within the patient's homes. So just like a more personalized kind of approach, it makes it more accessible for older adults who don't drive that sort of thing.
Dr. Liz:
So when did you launch that? Is that that's something that you you do like you own that and then contract out for it, or how do you operate it?
Dr. Desi Williams:
Yes, I own the business. I have a co-owner who owns a business with me, and then we have a team of therapists that works with us. So we launched like early 2020, like right pre-pandemic and then that kind of came in and flew us up for a while and then actually kind of became a thing that worked in our favor because nobody wanted to go to outpatient clinic. And now we have this kind of safer approach where you're working one on one with a therapist in your home. So got like maybe seven therapists that work with us ebbs and flows and all of them are part time and. It's just making it work.
Dr. Liz:
Do you still do care? Like, personally.
Dr. Desi Williams:
I do. I do. I mean, not a ton. I can't, not at time. I probably do like maybe eight visits a week at most. But so yeah, it's funny you.
Dr. Liz:
What is what your typical week consist of like so even when you're talking about you guys being chefs and you know, he's working like overnights and things like that, what is your typical schedule look like? And so, you know, what does that overlap look like for you guys relationally?
Dr. Desi Williams:
It changes every week. And I like I control my own schedule so I can always take a day off. He's like, Hey, I'm off on Thursday and I want to go surfing. If he tells me ahead of time, I just like, don't plan anything on a Thursday and then we can spend some time that day surfing or that sort of thing. His schedule is literally unpredictable, and I will say he gets his schedule ahead of time. He doesn't do a great job of sharing with me what his schedule is ahead of time. That's a little frustrating.
Dr. Liz:
He needed to join this call with us. We could have done a little like couples counseling.
Dr. Desi Williams:
You're right. You're right. There are areas that we could improve. But sometimes he will say like, Hey, I have this day off. And then I kind of went, Whether he knows or not, I'll stick my schedule around like, coincidentally, I. Also have some. Spa time that day. Yeah. Do you want to do lunch? Dinner? Taking on a date for the first time this month. So I kind of like. Yes. So it really ebbs and flows and it's hard to predict. And like I said, there are times when it's like you've been on call and had to work overnight for three days this week. Like, that's crazy. And there's some weeks where I'm like, Why are you still home right now? Yeah, work. So it's hard to predict all those couple again. It's okay. Yeah. You got chat, right? Right. I think somebody. Needs a liver. I don't know.
Dr. Liz:
Do you travel a lot personally for that? Because you do a lot of keynotes and things of that nature or so. Are you traveling frequently?
Dr. Desi Williams:
Not a ton. I probably have like gigs varying frequently, like a few times a year that I have to go out of town for like a hosting gig or a speech. So a lot of times, yeah, we mostly travel together like kidding and say that we still have very separate lives. I travel with my friends a few times a year. He'll talk with his friend a few times a year, and then we do like little trips together as well.
Dr. Liz:
And what about like when you did the reality TV things that you've done? Was that when you were in relationship with him or when you before you were in relationship?
Dr. Desi Williams:
So when I did the Challenge USA earlier this year, we were together when I was when I did Survivor, I was totally single. And so I had like nobody checking for me. The great thing about the Challenge USA is that they actually allow you to call. You have like a few people on your call list and you get a ten minute phone call a couple of times a week. We're able to still you can't really talk about a whole lot. Like we. All we like that on the phone. He'd be like, how are things going? They'd be like, You can't talk about that. You're like, Well, how's the weather got? You can't talk about that. So it was like good and bad to know that I had somebody at home. But he's wonderful. Like he's he was so wonderful throughout that whole process. Because we. Could. I'll go ahead.
Dr. Liz:
How long were you gone for for that?
Dr. Desi Williams:
You're got 6 to 7 weeks. I can't remember. It was six. Weeks. Okay. So what good months time? Yeah. Yeah. But the good and bad thing about the phone calls, like when you're on Survivor, you can't go home. You're literally just, like, cut off from the outside world for 42 days and, like, figure it out.
Dr. Liz:
Trying to survive is usually come along with cell phones, so it makes sense.
Dr. Desi Williams:
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And so you really don't have any perception of, like, what's going on at home. Nobody. You, you know, people are missing you, but there's nobody telling you they miss you forever. I put on the challenge. You, I say, like that really. Sucks with. People. Like a lot of people would be like, I just got this all with my husband. And he's like saying, Our son is having a really hard time. And they'd be like, down in the dumps for the week. And I'd be frustrated. Would be like, Jeremy told me to stay as long as I needed to stay. Like, it's like there's any sense of urgency for me to get home. And they'd be like, That's weird. But yeah, he's like, literally just stay forever, like, whatever and hold down the fort. But in retrospect, I'm like, I'm so grateful that he took that approach because there was never any that I was like, Jeremy's having a really hard time without me. Like, maybe I should try to lose a challenge and go home. He was always like, No, do your thing. I'll be fine.
Dr. Liz:
Right?
Dr. Desi Williams:
That and I appreciate that. My lack of codependency.
Dr. Liz:
For sure, that that meant that mental and emotional aspect of it, though, would most certainly I mean, the way that that impacts your biochemicals when you get put into a threat state on the phone call with a family member and then trying to show up to concentrate on something else. Yeah, that would be a little bit of a mindfuck to be able to focus your energy on a challenge and reality TV knowing that your family is struggling, I could see your point of view. It was probably easier not to have the calls versus to have them.
Dr. Desi Williams:
Right? Right. Because if you just kind of forget that there's like a real world happening at home, you're like, if the only world that exists is on this island where I'm starving and, you know, all that matters is that I haven't had food in the past three days. Whereas yeah, yeah, yeah. Having that friends.
Dr. Liz:
But so that sounds like you're not you guys are apart from each other from a traveling perspective. Very often it's just your day to day schedules. How does that influence, let's say let's start with conflict where, where two areas of conflict come in with a really busy the modern day couple, You know, what are you fighting about? Is it and you said like he's cleans up while you're gone and things like that. So he sounds like a real jerk as we But aside from that, like where does the conflict come in?
Dr. Desi Williams:
What are the biggest areas of conflict? It's a really good question. I, I feel like we are very or at least I am like if I'm having an issue or I'm like the least bit annoyed by something, I'm just going to nip it in the bud. Like I'm going to say like I'm not the type of person going to hold my feelings and been like, for the. Past two days, you've like. Not been giving me a hug in the morning. Like I'm to say it right away. Like, why don't you give me a hug this morning? Like. So I think that helps in our conflict that we don't really let anything get like big, big, big. It's like if it bothers you, like just say it right away. Either we're going to fight about or we're going to be like, yeah, you're probably right. I would say our biggest conflict is probably around in the areas of like going on dates. I'm a person that's like, I want to go. I love going out to eat like love, love, love, going out to eat. And he's like a homebody. Yeah, He's like, I would prefer to just order something, pick it up, and then bring it home. And I'm like that, But that doesn't feel like a date. So like, you spent the money on this great, delicious food, but like, I just don't feel like we haven't been on a date. Right? So I'd say that's probably our biggest area of conflict because then it kind of like goes over into like the intimacy thing where I'm like, have we actually spent any quality time together this week? I don't know, because eating a meal at home just doesn't feel like the same as eating a meal in a restaurant together.
Dr. Liz:
There's a different vibe to that for sure, when like just being in that in that environment, like you can't jump up to go switch over the laundry or whatever. When you're sitting in the middle of this beautiful restaurant, you know, like it really does force you to connect and to have that one on one interaction. So I mean, that makes sense. And there's something to be said. It's fun to dress like. It's fun to like the whole the whole thing is is a fun experience when that does tie into like, the intimacy piece. Do you find that that is ever a struggle on his end? You know from a very like typical that males often that sounds really bad I'm going to get real I'm going to get a lot of feedback there.
Dr. Desi Williams:
So I'm like, man, I don't know what you're going to say, but like, there's some like it's just physical physiology, like it's nature.
Dr. Liz:
But I guess more from like, I shouldn't make it that I shouldn't make it sexist in that way because women like sex, too. And that's not my point. But just being like the the intimacy piece of that, do you find that to be a struggle with how frequently you guys aren't home at the same time or on your end? If you're like, you're not taking me on a day, you're not getting laid like, is that does that ever come into it?
Dr. Desi Williams:
I will never be the type of girl who's and I say that now very loosely. We're three years into the relationship. 33 I may say something completely different, but I don't think it's good to use like sex or lack thereof. It's like a punishment like. I would avoid. It's like because I. Also know someone who lived in the world single for 30 years that like sex is a really easy thing to find. So if that's the only thing I'm holding over your head, like you can literally walk outside and find somebody else to have sex with. So, like, that's never going to be my like, way to punish my partner is like, I'm not having sex with you until you do X, Y, Z. So I don't know that even I'm like, I don't even know where I was going with this.
Dr. Liz:
That's your desire to connect. Like, does that lack of emotional connection influence then your lack of desire for physical connection?
Dr. Desi Williams:
Sometimes? Yes, because I think we like sometimes define intimacy differently. And like he's like, we had sex yesterday and I'm like, Yeah, but. We didn't like. Cuddle first and then, like, cuddle afterwards and like, we didn't talk about our feelings. And you only said you love me one time, you know? So like I, I put all of all of these things into a basket. Whereas him, he's like I, I filled the bag like, I don't know what else you need for me. And that's been like a big it's something that we continually just talk about and discuss. And if, if I have an issue with it, then I speak up and vice versa. So I think it's all been just in communication that certainly we've had our times where we like to have a big blow up fight and I wouldn't even say blow. We have like a 30 minute discussion and he like, he's so calm. He's so like I think want to is never date one. Yeah, yeah. You know is he temperament. Yeah yeah his temperament is so good that it's like I don't even know if I can call this a fight. Like, are we fighting or. I don't know. You can tell. He's, like, annoyed because he rolls his eyes, but, like, his voice doesn't really raise sugar. So I think that makes it easy to. It's like I just found somebody who has a complete opposite temperament in me where like, if I'm on 100, he's like, well, like, calm down and let's talk about this when you have that under control.
Dr. Liz:
But does he say, calm down? And if he does, how does that go for.
Dr. Desi Williams:
You know. His approach is more like, I'm going to go for a walk and Mike, he'll just remove it, which I appreciate because, yeah, I get it. I'm like, you don't want to nobody wants to be yelled at. So his yeah, his approach will be more like, I'm going to go for a walk and I'll be back.
Dr. Liz:
And that's you're.
Dr. Desi Williams:
Going to.
Dr. Liz:
Calm down.
Dr. Desi Williams:
Right. Right. Yeah. That's your trippin. Yeah. That's the catch.
Dr. Liz:
Though. That opposite personality. I mean it's so important because when you're I know when I've dated people who have similar temperaments to me like that is nothing but a shit show constantly. Like I have to have the person that it can be grounded is laid back just like, you know, they can just kind of watch it all unfold, but they're not really going to be fazed by it because otherwise, I mean, you're just constantly in conflict if you're both that reactive. That is not to justify my reactivity, by the way. That's just saying that I appreciate.
Dr. Desi Williams:
That even. If you know yourself, yeah, you have to know yourself. But I think that goes back to like first date wasn't exciting, you know what I mean? Like, yeah, you have to know. And he will still say because when he became more talkative, I'd be like, this is weird. Like, why are you talking so much now? And he's like, Well, I mean, initially you talked enough for the both of us. I didn't really have to like in his head. He was like all the moments were filled with talking like, I don't I like he didn't see an imbalance because he was like they were always talking happening. It didn't feel awkward. And I'm like, get so awkward because I was feeling hormones. But that's something that kind of unfolded over time. So I think that's why it's important to give three very people I sorry, give people three dates. I think that's fine, that's important and I think it's important to date people you wouldn't normally date because I don't think I would have. Normally. He's not my typical type.
Dr. Liz:
Well, in what way? If he's fine, he's educated, he's driven. What? What is your typical type like?
Dr. Desi Williams:
What do you do? Like loud, boisterous life of the party? Like can take him in any room and everybody in the room is going to fall in love with him because he's telling these great jokes and he's so fun. Like, that was. Just. My type.
Dr. Liz:
Which you wouldn't know until you went on that. And that's where your three dates come in, because you wouldn't really know if well, I mean, you'll know of some of these like that date one, but it's really to see if they maintain that or if they can open up more over time, all those things. What was your what happened for you that you transitioned from? Recognize when you dated narcissist to like yeah this is probably not fun anymore.
Dr. Desi Williams:
I mean I think it was just like seeing a pattern or I was like, it's really fun at first and then it's really friggin like, like it's tormenting me at the end, you know? Like, I mean, we've all been in those relationships where it's like at first you're head over heels, everything. It's so fine, you're having the best time and then three months and you're like, Why am I crying myself to sleep every night? And why don't why do I look at myself in the mirror and not like who I am and why am I questioning everything I was ever confident about? Like all of those kinds of things, right? I just realized it was it was a pattern. It's like, why do I keep and then I look at all the guys I'm dating and they all look the same. They all have these great jobs, Like they all have similar personalities. Like you're you're an idiot. Like you're a gymnast about dating Geminis. That's the first thing you start dating. Geminis don't work for you and, like, take some time to get to know someone who doesn't. You know, word vomit on the first date.
Dr. Liz:
Right? Right. And that's catching that pattern because that's I mean, that's our relational programing. That's a big thing. I talk with a lot of my clients about that. You know, that's all instilled in us what we're attracted to. What we're drawn to is a big part of what was programed in us early on, even the way you talk about your mom and that she's really driven and structured and all those things, she probably fits into the category of some of those being is she like the life of the party, like, is she really, like likable or.
Dr. Desi Williams:
I mean, she's likable, but she's definitely not the life of the party. She's way more of an introvert than an extrovert.
Dr. Liz:
Okay. Who and who in your upbringing was the life of the party?
Dr. Desi Williams:
my dad. Yeah, I was. I was. Yeah, I was dating a lot of my dad, and that was never going to work. So. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
Dr. Liz:
But that, I mean, and that makes sense when you become aware of it, though, I think that you became aware of it before you got engaged. That's such a big deal. Versus 20 years into your marriage. Yeah.
Dr. Desi Williams:
Did you? And I think I also spent, like, a. Lot of time. Sorry. No, no, go ahead. I say, like. Anything else, I spent a lot of time like single, so I was in a relationship. We broke up like 2015 and then I went on a ton of dates, but I wasn't in, like a serious relationship. Jeremy, my current fiancée, until 2019 and like, didn't really like, I had one kind of sort of relationship in between. There was a long distance thing. Also, nurses also never been to work, but I just spent a lot of time single and a lot of time like looking at like, why am I in? And I would notice that I'd go on first dates with these guys who I'd be really, really into, and they said all the right things. I'd be obsessed. And I like couldn't wait to go on the second date and they ghost me and I'd be devastated. Like I got Ghost in L.A. so many times and I'd be devastated. And I'm like, Why do I keep like, the first dates would be phenomenal because we're both talkers and we had a great time together and I never hear from them again. So I think it's just like recognizing these patterns of like, this is the man I'm dating. He says, like, let's go out next Tuesday. Never hear from him ever again. Like, obviously something's not working.
Dr. Liz:
What's that? That chemistry piece that comes along with dating a narcissist, I think is one of the that's one of the hardest parts. It's such an addiction, right? When they're and that chemistry is really your body signals signaling to you like you you're not safe like you might want to jump ship. But we're like, that's hot.
Dr. Desi Williams:
Right? I have I feel nervous and a little terrified and this is fine. Yeah, yeah. And we're like, I go that way, but it's like a different feeling. So anything different? We're like, Ooh. That's right.
Dr. Liz:
It's totally. And then when, when your brain is kind of wired for that chaos, though, then the Jeremy's of the world, do you seem a little more boring? But it's like that is the that that is the good choice though. That is a person who helps you to feel safe and who you don't go to bed crying yourself to sleep every night in those harnesses. And when you're able to really rewire that and reprogram what you've been so used to, that's a really powerful thing. Did you do therapy through that process or did you just do your own work out? Like, how did you come to do so?
Dr. Desi Williams:
I would say the first. Time I went, so I've done therapy kind of excuse me on and off. The first time I went to therapy. It was also actually because I was dating a guy, a very narcissistic guy, and we were fighting all the time about like things he thought and things like that. And he was like, You need to go to therapy. So in an effort to, like, save the relationship, please him, I don't know why. Like I went to therapy and essentially my I'm like, I don't know if she was paying him under the table, but essentially, like every time I'd be like, this is what we're fighting about. She'd be like, Well, let's consider his. Perspective and hard to be in that relationship. Yeah. Like, I don't know if he's paying you. Like, I don't know what's happening. I see that relationship way too long because that therapist that he told me I needed to go to, like, kept on essentially like a gaslighting. I don't know if the word for it, but it was just like. I was always. Yeah. Somehow justifying all of his crazy behavior. Yeah, that was like my first introduction to therapy. That was not so helpful. But I think also, like, what you say.
Dr. Liz:
Sounds like it went well.
Dr. Desi Williams:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I can. I think that was a crazy thing. It's like I thought it was going well because it would resolve all of my issues with him because I just feel like. I guess I'm wrong. Give it to him. Right? And then in retrospect, I go, I like, I'd sit at my bed and I'd be like, but am I wrong? Like, I feel like I still feel this way and my feelings are valid. So anyway, eventually I broke that off. I like therapy for a long time. Then I like revisit that revisited therapy a few years later, but not always specific to my relationship. But I do. Think therapy helps to just give you a different perspective on everything.
Dr. Liz:
For. Sure.
Dr. Desi Williams:
Like therapist for sure.
Dr. Liz:
But yeah, yeah. And what you're describing with the first therapist, I mean, that is a lot of trying to find that balance between validating some of these experience, but helping them to see outside of their experience. But when you're picking one side, like when you're leaning in too heavily, one versus the other, then that that does become I mean, that's just fucking you up so much worse, which is so unfair because now you are literally leaning into the abuse versus setting boundaries around it. It's so funny when you when you tell that story, I experience something that kind of on the flip side, so he had told me he read this book because he wanted to tell me how my behaviors were so inappropriate, whatever the case. So I read the book and I'm like, shit, this. Book is. About you. Like, I like. That was my first realization. He didn't he did not have any clue as he's recommending this book to me like that, my takeaway is going to be like, shit, like I am. I'm in a dynamic with the narcissist and so.
Dr. Desi Williams:
Right. you're the problem. Yeah.
Dr. Liz:
And I was like, I appreciate the recommendation. Still took the time to work myself out of that. But I think that that's so funny because the narcissist is going to show up in a way that like, I know everything, let me help you fix you. And sometimes in the process we're like, okay, now I get it. And then sometimes you get manufacturers, therapists, but, you know, it goes either way, right?
Dr. Desi Williams:
Right. Yeah. Yeah. And he was in therapy too, allegedly. But I'm like, what is your therapist saying? Like, and it turns out it was like, yeah, an old friend of his that was his therapist. And like, your therapist, whatever you.
Dr. Liz:
Whatever.
Dr. Desi Williams:
Didn't work out. Glad that's in the past. Yes. And then I will say, like I. Do have to give a lot of credit to my mom because my she's my mom is like, the most practical human being. Jeremy's probably like the second most practical. My mom is like, the most practical. So even when I don't, I don't know. She's just always kind of broken down the idea of marriage in relationship in a different way than I felt like any other woman did. So most women are like, well, even if my friends are always like, wait. Like, he doesn't give me like butterflies and butterflies, as you said before, can sometimes just be like fight or flight. Like, you're right, that could be a red flag. And so she asks the more important things like, Well, does he feel safe? It doesn't make you feel safe. You feel secure. When you're with him. Do you feel like you can be yourself? I do feel judged. So I think like we've all been programed from rom coms and Disney movies and whatever else that, like love is supposed to feel like this, like crazy, chaotic, exciting thing when, like, real healthy love should just feel comfortable. Yeah, You should just be able to feel like you with somebody next to you. She's also always been a huge thing. Like when people say, like, you complete me. She's like, No, no, no, no, no. She's like, I'm the answer. Never, ever, ever complete you and you don't feel whole before. You are a woman, You know, whoever before you perk up with someone like you're not ready. And so I do have to put it my like my maybe my mom is just like the ultimate therapist because she she would always kind of knock me back and be like, I hear this guy you're telling me a lot about him, but like, I'm not really hearing anything sustainable or anything that, like, secures a future or anything that feels like a good long term partner, like all the details you're telling me about, so-and-so just feel like fun, which is good for now. But are you looking for fun? Are you looking for a partner?
Dr. Liz:
That's really nice to have somebody that you can trust in that way and that, you know, like, you know, especially your mom, you know, she has your best interest at heart. And for her to be able to challenge you in that way and for you to be able to receive it because a lot of times when people like push back and challenge is hard to receive.
Dr. Desi Williams:
Has that not always been the same? I mean, to be. Fair, yeah. Yeah. To be fair, I have not always received it very well. And we've even, like my mom and I will get in fights about it and she's like, well, it's five and now she's in a place where she's like, I understand that I'm opinionated, and if I ever overstep my boundaries, feel like you can say it. And that's easier said than done. Like she stole my mom. I respect her like she's the person I respect the most in the world. Probably. But I don't and I don't know if my mom was fair. I know for sure my sister goes to therapy. I don't know if my mom was therapy, so I don't know if that's something she's kind of noticed or something she's reflected on her relationship with her mom. Are your parents? Yeah, my parents are still married.
Dr. Liz:
How long have they been married for?
Dr. Desi Williams:
Forever and ever. I don't know. My. I'm 30, I'm 33. My mom, my sister is 35. So I'm assuming, like maybe around 38 years. Okay. But I will say they've modeled like, you know, there's always been ups and downs in their relationship. We've seen that, but they spend a healthy amount of time apart. And that's something I very much appreciate. And same thing with like Jeremy and Jeremy's parents were still together until his father passed away a couple of years ago. But they also spent healthy time apart like his mom travels with her friends separate from his dad. My mom travels with her friends, separate from my dad. So they've always I think we've both seen relationships where people are not codependent and things like we have our two separate lives that we come together and, you know, we create this great life together. But it doesn't mean that I still have my separate interests and friends and relationships outside of just right.
Dr. Liz:
Do you ever struggle with being hyper independent? Like, is that hard for you to let him take care of you or to let him be.
Dr. Desi Williams:
The look on your face like like.
Dr. Liz:
Very, very deep in thought? Is that ever a struggle for you? I'm no sure. I asked him. Can you.
Dr. Desi Williams:
Ask him? I know. I'm like. What? I say What? He said, You're probably very different. I will say I'm very opinionated, but he also values, for the most part, values my opinion. And so he's like, All right, that's that's enough. Yeah. But while I'm independent, I've always, like, still felt, like there are certain gender roles a man should have and a woman should have. And so while I want to be able to support myself and take care of myself and not need a man like I still want a man like I still want to not have to pay the bills. I'll have to pay the bills, but like, I can't help but you need my help. But if you don't need my help, even better. So that that's not so much a struggle for me. Like, I don't I don't feel like I gained my self-worth from being able to do everything for myself. Like, I don't I don't want to take the trash out and I don't like there's certain things that I don't have to do. And he's right and I'm happy to do it right.
Dr. Liz:
So you'll lean into that. So it really is the interdependence that you guys have established and that you can be you can be him. And then together you can be. We are brothers. And that sounds like whether you have a really healthy outlook on that, does he ever lean in one further one direction to the other, whether independent or dependent?
Dr. Desi Williams:
he content and this is something that again it's like yo yo the up and down the road because because he knows I'm independent. There were times early on in our relationship and these are little examples, but it's just the thing that sticks out in my head the most. Like we'd go hiking and he'd be like 100 yards in front of me and I'd be like, Jeremy, I could have been eaten by a bear back here. And you had no idea, like, I could have fallen off the side of the cliff and he'd be like, I know you're capable. Like, you're not going to die. And I'm like, Yeah, but that's not the point. Like, you weren't close enough to. Say we have. In fact. Connected. So these are. Those are like ongoing conversations we have. But again, I would bring it up either in the moment or immediately afterwards. Like I'm not letting these things fester forever. Like she left me on this hike. Stop leaving me on this hike. I want to know that if a bear comes, you can save me. And yeah we've had to like, I mean, yeah, it ebbs and flows, but.
Dr. Liz:
But he's receptive to the feedback. Like, it sounds like you both are willing to take the feedback and then change accordingly for the.
Dr. Desi Williams:
Yeah, I mean, I'm not. So. Yes, yes, I'll see you there.
Dr. Liz:
You can take the feedback.
Dr. Desi Williams:
And even that I think initially in our relationship was an issue because you'd be like, you always have something to say. And I'm like, It's not that big things I have to say. It's just I'd rather stay than it's like sit on my heart and like become a wedge between us. So I have like I've had learned, I have had to learn to choose my battles. Like, yeah, if it's really not a big deal, I just don't take anything anymore. And that's something I had to learn because I can't be nit picky. Like. Sure. I'm like overly expressive. I say everything that's on my mind and sometimes, like, people don't want to hear your opinion. That's something I've had to.
Dr. Liz:
Get really learn in practice. And that I mean, I call that taking the pause. I do the same thing and I, I think it ties in to, well, I'm just going to justify it this way, whether it does or doesn't. But it ties in to being driven and successful and, you know, running businesses and all these things that we have to balance every day, that there is this element of we're hyper aware of everything around us because we're balancing so much constantly. So that's how I'm going to justify it. But with that.
Dr. Desi Williams:
I know right now I.
Dr. Liz:
Have to take it like a pause before even with my son, I have a 15 year old son and, you know, it's like wanting to redirect those things. Or when I am dating, like constantly wanting to like, basically express myself and it's like, yes, that that is a good thing. But for me, I have to kind of stop and check in. Like, what is the value in this statement? Is this is this a knee thing? Like get over it or is this truly something I need to express? And so that's what I've been working on, whether the people listening in my life agree or not.
Dr. Desi Williams:
Yeah, I think. That's a perfect way to put it. Yeah, because I used to piss people off all the time. I'd be like, Why does so-and-so not like me? And then like Jeremy calls me provocative all the time. He's like, You're provocative. I'm like, What do you mean, I'm provocative? He's like, You just, like, say things that you probably shouldn't say. Like, so he will call me out on it. And I and now that he says it like I'll be in a social situation and I'll be about to say something, I'm like, I think that's provocative. Like, I don't think I don't think that person needs to hear that right now. And then sometimes that'll still come out and I feel like our social circle knows me well enough at this point that they're like, That's just Desi being Desi. But yeah, he has certainly pointed that out to me, that he's like you probably over express that. Sure. Within I can.
Dr. Liz:
Really relate to that. The double edged sword of that is that the people who love us, that's why they love us because we're entertaining in that way and like keep them on their toes. They're never going to know what to you know, they're never going to guess what we have to say. But then I can imagine it probably does get maybe possibly overwhelming or can get all that time. So I hear you, Jeremy. I will tone down my provocative nature.
Dr. Desi Williams:
Yeah. Yeah. That's that's always. Yeah. Now that's my filter. That's, that's what I do during my clause in this because I'm like, is this provocative or is it because in my head I'm like, this is just a truth. Like everybody. Sure, everybody is thinking what I'm. About to say. Wouldn't get for the.
Dr. Liz:
Punchline. It's hard to.
Dr. Desi Williams:
Resist. Right? Exactly. So does.
Dr. Liz:
He. Where can people find more about you? Even your business? And you're in California. Is that where you Do you guys reside in California?
Dr. Desi Williams:
Yep, we are in L.A. Jeremy is born and raised here, so we're never leaving.
Dr. Liz:
So I can find you on social media or your website.
Dr. Desi Williams:
Yeah. So the best way to follow me personally is at Instagram, essentially. So Desi Williams on Instagram and my business, probably through our website, which is a plus care Slate.com. We also have an Instagram equals care L.A. But it's, I don't know, not too exciting. Sounds provocative. Yeah, that's. Provocative. My personal instagram. So follow me there. It's better. Yes. Well.
Dr. Liz:
I appreciate you coming to hang out today. You've been a lot of fun. I appreciate you being vulnerable and sharing with us. And I'm sorry in advance to Jeremy for how this conversation went, but I know.
Dr. Desi Williams:
I'll let you know if I get. In trouble when he walks out of the. Room. Yes. He's got a real. Size, so it'll be. So funny.
Dr. Liz:
All right. Well, thank you so much. We'll talk soon.
Dr. Desi Williams:
Thank you.
Dr. Liz:
Thank you to Desi for joining me. But more importantly, thank you to Jeremy for being the highlight of our conversation. Thank you all for hanging out with me today on relatable relationships. Unfiltered. Make sure to subscribe to our YouTube channel, sign up for my newsletter and find me on Instagram at Dr. Elizabeth Fedrick.