Relatable podcast 

Dr. Liz:
Hey, welcome to Relatable Relationships Unfiltered. Yes, we've been on a bit of a hiatus, but we're back. As I mentioned a couple of weeks ago on Instagram, after releasing weekly episodes for just over a year, it was really time for me to take a minute, to pause and to reflect and honestly to pivot. I really need to know where I was going with these episodes, what the purpose of relatable is, and what value I really am intending to provide through these episodes. Through this reflection, I was able to identify that one of the primary things I aim to do through all of my content. So whether on relatable social media, my book, newsletter, whatever the case is, to provide hope and guidance and support really for addressing the barriers that we all face when it comes to the pain and heartache of disconnection, both with ourselves and others. So many of these barriers we often aren't even aware of, they're so difficult to become aware of. And then when we do become aware of them, a lot of times we don't have a clue what to do about them. So my ultimate goal moving forward with relatable is to provide insights and clarity for addressing these barriers. So that really you're able to work towards the thing that we also deeply desire that safe and healthy connection. Of course, there will still be plenty of humor, rawness and relatability in there, but the focus has become clear. Also, in case you missed it. My book Relationship Reprograming, has finally been released. It's a roadmap of starting your own relationship Reprograming journey. And it's told through the lens of my personal story. Very vulnerable. Very raw. Go easy on me. You can find it on Amazon. And with all of that being said, let's get going for this next episode. Something I've never talked about before Unrelatable is shadow work. And when we think about one of the biggest causes of disconnection in our relationships, it generally starts with what we bring to the table. So in terms of our past traumas, our insecurities, our survival behaviors.

 

Dr. Liz:
And joining me today is Michelle Panting, a shadow work coach and mentor. Michelle is giving us the inside scoop on shadow work and is also giving tons of great takeaways on how to start to embrace your shadow, which will ultimately lead us closer to connection with both ourselves and with others. This is relatable relationships, unfiltered. Hey, Michelle, welcome to Relatable.

 

Michelle Panning:
Hello. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited for this conversation.

 

Dr. Liz:
I am, too. I am so excited to connect with you after we did your podcast together and we had such a good conversation. We have so much alignment and in our value systems and our approaches and and the work that we do with our clients. So I am excited to have you here. Tell everyone who you are and what you do before we jump in.

 

Michelle Panning:
So I'm Michelle Panning. I am a shadow work coach and mentor, and the way I describe my work, it honestly took me so long to figure out like my one liner, you know, that I would say. And essentially it's like I'm helping you do better in love, sex, money, relationships, business, all the things. It's like, I want every woman I work with women specifically, just like I want every woman to feel whole and complete within themselves, which I know is a huge part of your work and really helping women to connect themselves. That's the name of my program, The Connected Woman, and that is really at its core. What I do is help women connect to themselves first and foremost, so then they can have like shitloads of money and sex and relationships and like just the best things ever. And I do that through shadow work and embodiment.

 

Dr. Liz:
I love that. And even more, I think that the Michelle and I were chatting before we started recording and we took a pivot on the topic and this is just so in alignment. I didn't even realize that that having the conversation around that we want to talk about what leads to connection and really addressing the problems of disconnection and sounds like that is your slogan that that is what you do. So our pivot was well-timed and I think this is perfect. So what we are going to talk about is this idea of shadow work, the concept of it. And as I was telling you, I've never discussed this on Relatable, and I'm really not familiar with it. It is not work that I do. So let's start by just explaining, giving us a bit of an understanding of what what is shadow work?

 

Michelle Panning:
Okay, so people have very different opinions on what shadow work is, but I'm going to give my perspective on it. So the way that I see it is essentially finding the parts of yourself that have been the shadows, which are things of your self aspects, traits, characteristics of yourself that you have repressed, shamed, don't trust, have no conscious awareness of. It's the things that you go, I'm not like that. I don't do that. I'm not like her. I would never say that or whatever it is. And so finding those parts of yourself and then restoring wholeness. So shadow work for me is the process of restoring wholeness. So what I find is people tend to either gravitate towards their darkness or their light, right? So there's people who will go, no, no, no, I'm I'm a really good person. I'm kind and caring. I'm so nice and sweet, and I just don't understand why I keep attracting narcissistic men or the flip side where it's like I actually feel like I'm constantly not good enough. I feel like I'm a loser. I'm not powerful. I can't do anything right. And so they're actually not acknowledging their own power and their assertiveness and all of the things. And what I love about shadow work is through a lot of other, let's say, healing modalities. It can be very often in the sense that you're like searching for things, right? Where did this come from? What's the trauma? All of these things. And with shadow work, I'm like, Life will show you because whatever you're triggered by, that's probably pointing towards something within yourself. That is a shadow aspect. So if you're really triggered by a woman's sexuality, right, her being very sexually liberated and it's like, I would never do that. You've probably repressed a part of your sexuality, right? If you're very triggered by someone who lies a lot and is like, I would never fucking lie, I can guarantee that you do. You're just blind to it, right?

 

Dr. Liz:
And this ties in a lot to the work that I do in relationship reprograming that we had chatted about on, on your pod in terms of that is exactly how I assist my clients. And you know, when I'm putting out content people to determine like what are their, what are their rob hearts, what is still unprocessed, what is the aspects of them that are heels. And we can usually determine that. As you're saying. It's it's the things that that do trigger eyes that bring out what I call our survival behaviors. Right so it's we start behaving all kinds of recklessly in ways that are even embarrassing to us that we're like so much like, I don't I don't want to be that person who is that person. And I think that is such a clear indicator. Things that are just they are rubbing up against what is still raw and what is unprocessed. And we know that when we then behave in these ways that are often out of control, whether that is lashing out, whether that shutting down, it's isolating, whatever it is, it's ways that we're not proud of.

 

Michelle Panning:
1,000%. And this is like, you know, people be like, ooh, shadow work, that sounds really intense. I'm like, it's honestly like any other modality, really. It's we all have the same purpose. It's to reclaim the lost parts of ourselves, reclaim wholeness so that you feel like a wholly complete person and then as when you don't, you're then seeking out relationships. Where is that narrative of like, you complete me? Like that's not what that's not what we're going for. We don't want or.

 

Dr. Liz:
Or jobs or like impulsive behaviors, you know, like whatever, whatever the addiction is of choice, right? To try to fill that void that really it's it's the attempt to numb that. It's it's the attempt to, like, push that away, avoid it as much as possible. And so, yeah, it's so many different things for so many different people. But we definitely see it come up in relationships where it's like if I can just have that person, if I can just have that type of person, then everything will be okay. Or if my current partner would just do these things for me, everything would be okay. And, and I love what you're saying of like, no, that's probably just more an indicator of something missing within you.

 

Michelle Panning:
Yeah. And this is something that I speak about really often that people don't think about where essentially because we are always seeking wholeness when we cannot reconcile something within ourselves, we will attract people, events and circumstances who display that characteristic so that we get to meet that part of ourselves through another person. So when we say I feel like he completes me, there's an element of truth to that. Sure. Because no matter what it is, whether he's reflecting back to you, your greatness, your magnificence, like you think he's so charismatic and you think you're really boring. Like whether it's that and they're mirroring that or you haven't reconciled that you are selfish or manipulative or needy or avoidant or whatever, they're mirroring that to you as well. So a while ago on my podcast, I had done some episodes that said like how to heal anxious attachment and how to heal avoidant attachment. And it was a bit of clickbait, but it was like also truth to it because what I see is that when anxious people are trying to heal anxious attachment, they only focus on anxious attachment. But as we know, you're usually attracting avoidant partners. They are mirroring to you your own avoidance of where you're actually not taking responsibility for your life, where you're being avoidant, right? You avoid difficult conversations, you avoid boundary setting, maybe you avoid paying your bills. It could be anywhere, right? And then the avoidant person attracts an anxious person. They're mirroring to you your own anxiousness. Right? Where are you afraid that you're actually going to be abandoned? So you leave first all of these things, right? And so whenever we're like, because I could attract someone who's, let's say, will use lying because that's a very like trigger like trigger city for a lot of people, right? So if I attract a liar and I haven't reconciled that within myself and we go, I hate liars, I would never do that. I could never justify why someone would lie. If I've reconciled that within myself, I'm not allowing that behavior. I'm setting a boundary, but I'm also not up in arms about it because I understand why people lie, because I've lied and I've reconciled the part of myself that is in fact a liar. So and again, like going back to what you were saying of these impulsive behaviors in these where we have these outbursts, whether it is, you know, yelling at someone or shutting down, and then we're like, why did I do that? Like, that's so embarrassing. That's reactivity. So something is being triggered within you and that builds when we have triggers that build so much tension in our body and when we don't have the capacity to be with that tension, we want to release it. And so I call it like a hot potato, our emotions. And so that's when we will blame or get defensive or play the victim or whatever it is so that someone else can hold our emotions and we don't have to do it ourselves. Then comes the shame, right? God, why did I do that? And it's something I see with my clients all the time, and it's something I have firsthand experience with of acting like, quite frankly, psychopath in previous relationships and then being like, Why did I do that? I'm not that person and being in a shame spiral, but the shame is not actually productive because it actually acts as another distraction from taking responsibility for the behavior and then activating choice.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, I mean, it really it sends a lot of people into this victim mode. That's what one of the biggest things that I see. And I agree that it almost always prevents taking ownership because either you start to work overtime trying to justify and deflect and make sense of that behavior that was so out of character. So because of the dissonance that comes along with that, we have to make sense of it. Like the brain has to make sense of why would I have behaved in a way that was so, so in a way that I didn't want to so humiliating what we would identify as so out of character. And so we have to make sense of it, right? So either we're going to work overtime justifying it or we're going to work overtime playing the victim and going into this complete opposite state of like, yeah, I just don't deserve anyone. I don't deserve them. They should just leave me. They shouldn't be with me to begin with. Neither ends of the spectrum or actually taking ownership or accountability. Both are pushing it off and it's just going to happen again.

 

Michelle Panning:
Exactly. And the way I describe this, because people think that, you know, if they become reactive and then they go into that same pit of, like I, I feel so awful. I always do this and I guess I'm not good enough for this relationship. They think that that's actually helping the other person. You're not you're actually being incredibly self-obsessed in that.

 

Dr. Liz:
Manipulative.

 

Michelle Panning:
And manipulative. Exactly. It's like feel bad for me. So I use the example of like, imagine your partner cheated on you. And then rather than saying I'm so sorry, I can see how deeply this has affected you and I. I want to hold space for your emotions. It's on such a piece of shit and I can't believe I did this. And unnecessary and I don't deserve you and all these things. It's like, cool. So again, this is all about you. There's no space for what I'm experiencing or the fallout of this. And so shame I find most shame is unproductive. The only way that I see shame as being productive is when you go, I really don't feel good about that. I really don't feel good. I feel a lot of shame about the way that I behaved. Now I'm going to use that as a compass for choosing differently moving forward. That's when shame is productive because it can act as a compass for where we want to do things differently in the future. But for you to just wallow in a shame pit like I don't feel bad for you.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, and it's so destructive. And that I said when I was dating recently a few months ago and that like he he did something that was such deep betrayal and that is exactly what's his response. Right? So he went into the whole shame thing. So then it's like, I'm never going to talk to you again because not me saying that, him saying that because, like, he doesn't want to take accountability for it. He wants to take accountability in the sense of like, Sorry, I did that. I'm such a piece of shit all the things. But then there can't be any further conversation. And when there's an attempt to be, it's like we're never talking again. Okay, whatever. So I have this awareness, right? Of like that, that shame and how it's impacting me because there's not real ownership or accountability. It's just woe is me and all of that. Now this is where this is where my accountability comes in, because I get how blamey that sounds of what I just said. And so I did it, not realizing it was shadow work, as you're describing it. But that is what I had to do, was I had to then, because one of our last conversations that we had was him saying, like, you do these hurtful things and then deny it. And that's like the manipulation and that's the covert behaviors. And of course, my response is like, No, I don't. But so then I had to like, really sit with that. And as you describing it did send me into a bit of a state of shame. And it was so embarrassing to have that awareness, to have that awareness of the line, because that's what that is. When you do something like shitty and convert to somebody and then say like, No, I didn't. I didn't I didn't say that I didn't use that tone. I'm not looking at you in any type of way that is lying. And so I was so hurt by his betrayal when in fact, I had been, you know, doing these jabs of lying and manipulation to him for months without having any awareness. I don't want to say I didn't have any awareness, like in the moment I knew what I was doing, but I didn't have the awareness of how impactful it was, and I didn't have the awareness of where it was coming from. Like it was a survival behavior for me that I felt so justified in the moment. You know what I mean? But then reflecting back, it's like, Wow, that was really fucked up, that I did all of those things and that the end of all of it, I'm like pointing my finger at him for this big betrayal when exactly as you're describing, I had so many situations of being so fucked up to him that I just kept denying.

 

Michelle Panning:
Him and I, I love the awareness and that and this is I love what you said of like, actually in the moment I did have the awareness of what I was doing because people bang on about awareness all the time, right? You just need to become aware, which is true. But a saying that has become like famous in my little community is clock it, own it, clean it up. It's not enough for you to just be like, I know that I do that right? so don't do it.

 

Dr. Liz:
You know, then fucking stop.

 

Michelle Panning:
Like it's almost worse to then have the awareness and continue to choose the behavior than to actually be unaware of something. But like, I just love what you said around it was kind of so jarring to recognize, my gosh, I'm doing this because that's what the ego does, right? The ego creates this concept of self. So how we see ourselves and how we want other people to see us. So for me, it's like, you know, back in, I think this is like 2021. When I was dating this guy, I was like, He's so emotionally unavailable. All of the things he will not open up. He's so avoidant. And me, I'm a relationship coach. I'm obviously emotionally available. I'm obviously open. I am such a good communicator.

 

Dr. Liz:
So self aware. Yes.

 

Michelle Panning:
This and it wasn't until like maybe towards the end of the relationship or maybe even after we had broken up that I was like, my God, I have a vested interest in only attracting emotionally unavailable men so that I get to be the emotionally available one, so that I get to be the one who's conscious. Because it wasn't until I met conscious men that I was like, shit, wait a minute. It turns out I'm not as conscious as I thought you was. So it's it's true. It's like we will see anything that does not fit our concept itself. Like I'm a therapist. I would never get defensive about that. Like, I. I know how to regulate and I can use nonviolent communication. Right? If you were a a binge eating coach, but you binge eat in secret, right? You're never going to want to admit that all of these things. And so if you see yourself as this I'm so kind and generous and I'm always over giving and people take advantage of me, you're going to be blind to all the spaces where you're actually manipulative, where you're actually quite selfish, the places where you're actually giving only so you can get. Yeah, it's not actually coming from pure generosity, it's coming from manipulation. And so this is what shadow work is and people might be listening to this, to this going, I do not want to do shadow work because this sounds awful. I'm going to see where I'm a liar, where I'm a manipulative, where I'm narcissistic, selfish, all the things. But it's also seeing where you've given away your power, where you're actually blind to your own confidence, where you're blind to your own magnetism, where you're blind to all these beautiful light aspects of yourself that you're not owning because you're like, afraid of what that would mean, right?

 

Dr. Liz:
You're too busy protecting yourself from these parts that you're afraid of, that you are. Then not only deflecting those things, you're deflecting, as you're saying, all of the good as well. And and your ability to attract conscious people and emotionally mature people. And that I think that ties into this so much is and I completely relate to what you're saying, that I have had a very similar awareness as of late that like maybe that is my draw to emotionally unavailable men is because I, I know that if I did an emotionally unavailable man, they're not going to require commitment to me. They're not going to require me to, you know, take that next step that I am so terrified of and these are all again, as a relationship coach. It is as as a relationship therapist, as all of the things, those are so hard to come to terms with. But we there's change is not possible and connection is not possible and safe, healthy, healthy relationships. None of that is possible until we own that. And it's really fucking hard to do it.

 

Michelle Panning:
It's really hard because the thing is right. I'm saying like, clock it, own it, clean it up. People are like, okay, so essentially clock it. I become aware of it, I own it. I, I take responsibility for it, like actual responsibility and accountability. And then I clean it up, meaning I choose differently in the future, in there. Like, that's that's all I got to do tonight. That's all you got to do. It is the hardest thing. They're like, Please give me a 14 step process. Then I need to sit in my journal and like, give me the journaling prompts. And where did this trauma come from? And like, it doesn't matter. Like, we could sit here and whilst that work is beneficial at times and we understand of like why we are the way that we are, I feel like people can really loop in that and use that as a distraction from taking action and just doing things differently. Because once you say you have to activate choice, people are like, no, I'm responsible for my life, no bullshit. I want to go back to talking about my mommy and daddy. Yes.

 

Dr. Liz:
Know that I completely agree with and that is for relationship Reprograming That is, it's awareness. It's implementation of change. Well, there's a little sub step of identification of what needs to change, implementation of change and then adaptation, because it is hard and because it is so foreign and the survival behaviors that we use in those moments when we are acting reckless and out of character, that is what we believe will keep us safe. And so in those moments when we think this is the only way to stay safe and Michelle is over here telling you you're not allowed to do that, you got to pick a different option. That's like then how am I supposed to say stay safe? And the absolute irony of it is that behavior that we think is going to keep us safe is almost always leading, if not always leading, to further disconnection. It is always pushing that other person away, is always pushing you further into a shame spiral. It is never giving you the outcome that you believe it's going to, and so that choosing differently, that gives you the opportunity to create an evidence log to see like, shit, that turned out different when I didn't lash out, when I didn't yell, when I didn't run.

 

Michelle Panning:
Yeah, I was different. Yeah. This there's so many things. I could take this in a million different directions, but like in my world, I really bang on around regulating your nervous system because what I, what I say to the women in my program is, like most people, you know, nervous system has become such a buzz word thing at the moment, which is good because more people are recognizing how disregulated they are. But it's like they're they're waiting until the moment of dysregulation to then try to regulate themselves. And I'm like, okay, what if we try to just not get that, just regulate it? So this is like, let's do things on the daily, you know, like even something as simple as like putting your legs up on the wall, right? Like laying flat on the floor or on your bed and putting your legs up 90 degrees on the wall and just lay there for ten, 15 minutes in silence and just be with yourself, you know, something like that, helping you to be in the parasympathetic nervous system in that state so that when things happen, you're not as triggered. It's like the way I describe it is it's like saying, I'll wait till I'm drowning, till I learn to swim like that doesn't make sense. It's like, why don't we learn how to swim so that you don't drown? So when you can have a regulated nervous system, you're not getting as triggered. Because the thing is, is that the way I see shadows is you're essentially trying to hold down a beach ball underwater. And if anyone's ever tried to do that in the pool or at the beach, it takes a lot of effort to hold the beach all under the water right now. As soon as you let go of the beach ball, it pops up. Right. So as soon as you are hungry, tired PMS thing had a shit day at work. Someone makes a comment whatever the second that you don't have the energy to keep that beach ball down but your shadows come up. And that's that reactivity of like, whoa, that felt so out of character. It's not. It's just an effect of yourself.

 

Dr. Liz:
It is your.

 

Michelle Panning:
Can literally, it's very in-character. And we can see this in celebrities, right? Like when Britney Spears had her 27 like meltdown, people were like, my God, But that's so out of character for her. She's always the good girl. And it's like, Yeah. And it took a lot of effort for her to repress the part of her that was rebellious and wanted to do whatever the fuck she wanted and make her own decisions. And so it came out in this really chaotic way. And so this is why people go, my God, you see, I can't trust this part of myself, because the second I'm not trying to manage it, it comes out in this crazy way. The irony is, because you're not accepting it, it comes out in crazy ways. If you accept that you have these aspects of yourself and you actually give them love, they stop acting out. But people are like, Wait, I'm confused because this is this part of me is so destructive. How can I love this part of me? I'm like, It's destructive because you're not loving it.

 

Dr. Liz:
So true. Yeah. Because even like, I'm visualizing right now, like, even the idea of just holding the ball in front of you in the water, that takes nearly no effort. Right? So it's there's it's exposed. It's not going to be held underwater. So but it takes nearly no effort. And I think that that when we even look at it in terms of a lot of times those parts of us that we are ashamed of or that we try to hide, they were so shamed by caregivers, they were shamed by teachers, by siblings, by peers, by or like previous partners. And so then it is reinforced that that part of us does not deserve love and it doesn't deserve acceptance. And when we continue to let that be true, instead of really assessing like, why is this part of us coming out, why did this part of us come out as a child?

 

Michelle Panning:
What what was the need?

 

Dr. Liz:
What what was going unmet? And how can we meet that today so that we can stop, like shaming that part of us and really work to accept it? Like what a different world and I do that work with clients we like very similarly where, you know, they think about even themselves as a child, like as they what we say. But often clients like throwing tantrums, right? Well, I deserve to be put in my room. I deserve to be put on time out. I deserved. But what, what how could that have looked different? And when they can see, like, wait, maybe that little kid needed a hug, they needed some reassurance, they needed some time and attention. Holy shit, what a different response that would have been.

 

Michelle Panning:
Yeah, it's huge. And I think, you know, the ego is always trying to be right and the ego loves and thrives and familiarity. And so it will recreate that scenario where you are not getting your needs met, right? One, you probably don't feel safe in asking for your needs to be met. So the only way you know how is to quote unquote throw a tantrum. Right. And act out and do some sort of theatrics. And then what happens is you either get the need met and so of course, you are then rewarded for that behavior of I'm going to perpetuate this now or then comes with isolation and all of the things and you might go, but it's awful. That feels so bad when my partner withdraws his love. And I'm just I'm acting out and it's not working and all the things, but that pattern's familiar to you. If that happened when you were two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, consistently go to your room, go deal with this by yourself. You're going to attract partners who then recreate that scenario because to the ego, it's better the devil you know. Right? So even though this pattern is painful to you, it's like, okay, but we know that we haven't died from it. And I don't know what communicating like an adult would look like. We could potentially die from that. So let's do things. Let's just keep doing things the way that we are because it's working for us. And this is the thing one of my favorite favorite quotes from Carolyn Elliott, who wrote Existential Pink, which is that book will fuck you up like, that's my reading list. It's my God, girl, you have to read it. It is so good. But one of my favorite quotes from there is she says, Having is evidence of wanting. So if you have some repeated pattern in your life, yeah, it is. Because on some level you want it, you are getting something from it. And so I always ask my clients like, what do you get from this pattern? And of course, I'm sure you've seen this as well, nothing. This pattern sucks. I hate it. I'm getting nothing from it. I don't like being broke or attracting emotionally unavailable men or, you know, men who control me or I don't like whatever. And I'm like, just sit with it. Just you don't even have to do anything with that question right now. Just let it percolate in the back of your mind as you go throughout your days. And within a week they're like, my God, it's so I don't have to be responsible or so that I don't have to make my own choices or so that I get to be the victim. And like, everyone feels bad for me and everyone's like, Poor you, blah, blah, blah. And like, there we go. And once we can figure out what are you actually gaining from this pattern, then we can start to choose differently.

 

Dr. Liz:
So true, so insightful. That is just so beautifully said and that I had that same conversation last night with the client and I used similar verbiage of like basically that like, what are you getting out of it? And sometimes what people are getting out of it is it's become their identity. It's who they are. It's all they know. So what they're getting out of it is I get to remain in this place that I know because shifting your identity comes along with a lot of fear and a lot of grief. And sometimes it's as simple as that. But I mean, what you're saying just resonates with me. So much of even my recent awareness of me going into these states of like these emotionally unavailable men and the, you know, they won't commit to me and they won't make time for me and I'm never a priority. And then to have that awareness of like, shit, it's because I don't want to commit to them because of my fears, because of that. That's a crazy awareness. But what it led to was like getting my therapist back on the phone, like.

 

Michelle Panning:
Let's up like I yeah.

 

Dr. Liz:
I've got to work through this now because exactly as you're saying now that I'm aware of it, it is now my responsibility to do something about it. And if I choose that, what I do about it is like, okay, the awareness is just that I don't maybe want a committed relationship. I get to choose that. But what I don't get to keep doing is blaming and shaming men for being shitty partners when I keep choosing them for that exact reason.

 

Michelle Panning:
Yeah, absolutely. There's always something that we're getting and it is humbling. Like, you know, the work that you do, the work that I do, like we're getting humbled on the regular when what you're going to use, when you see a pattern in yourself and you're like, my God, because it is so much easier to let the lesson land on someone else, right? It's so much easier to go. He's avoidant, it's him. He can't communicate. He needs a therapist. If only he would read some. David Dada, then he would be able to be in his masculine energy and all of the things. It's so much easier to do that than ask yourself the question, How am I contributing to this situation? Because we don't want to see how we're contributing to a shitty situation. We want to blame, we want to deflect, we want to get defensive, we want to stay in that reactivity so we don't have to look at the hard truths about ourselves. But when you actually start to take responsibility, it puts you in such position of power because now you have choice over how you show up. So like you said in that example with you and your most recent acts, it's like you could the decision of, okay, I don't want to come into a relationship and that gets to be perfect and fine. Or you can also go, okay, cool. So when this comes up for me again, because it will be like I've seen it and then they don't want to see themselves in a pattern ever again. I'm like, You're going to have to see yourself in this pattern 19 million times and you need to be willing to hold that without putting it out on someone. So it's like when this pattern comes up, okay, cool, I'm going to regulate myself. And instead of leaning out or becoming reactive, I'm going to lean in, I'm going to be vulnerable with him and with myself. I'm going to be really fucking honest about what's coming up for me. I'm afraid to commit. And it's like when we're dealing with commitment issues, what are you afraid someone's going to see about you if someone gets too close? Because like pie also commitment issues over here, which again I thought I didn't have until my partner and I went ring shopping for my engagement ring. And then I was like, my God, I'm freaking out. Like for so long it had been, I can't wait to get engaged. And like, whilst I'm not engaged yet, it's still if we're reach up for the ring, like he has the ring and I can feel the part of me that's like, maybe I don't know, do I really want that? What if I actually want to be like a nomad and just live in Bali? You know, like, just like your whole body language?

 

Dr. Liz:
Is anyone listening? You got to pull it up on YouTube because their entire body language shifted.

 

Michelle Panning:
As she's saying this. She Exactly Just like your full flirting. Yes.

 

Dr. Liz:
I did it. So I get the feeling and it's even more when you can when you are owning it and acknowledging it. It's even like then you're feeling it. And sometimes what we're most afraid of is feeling it. That's that the fear?

 

Michelle Panning:
Yeah, absolute. And this is what I say, that no one's afraid of intimacy. Okay? We're afraid of the consequences of intimacy. Yes, but it's going to come with. If I get too close to this person, they're going to see something that they don't like and they're going to leave. They're going to reject me. They're going to see that I'm not good enough. They're going to see that I'm too much. They're going to think they're going to make me wrong. Whatever it is, we're afraid of the consequences of being really intimate with someone. What if it's amazing? And then I had this come up in my relationship where I really it was it was like maybe six months and I was like, my God, I love this person more than I've ever loved anyone. And then I imagined him dying and I was hysterical and I was like, my God. And I felt myself then start to push him away. For about a week. I started to be really distant because I felt, my God, loving him this much. If I ever lost him due to whatever. If he died, I would not be able to cope. But here's the thing. When you are afraid of rejection, abandonment, whatever, it's just a feeling. And a feeling is just sensations in the body. So if you can start to learn to be with the sensations in your body, and this is coming from someone who had regular panic attacks where when I had a panic attack, I would profusely vomit like it was not cute, but like I could not be with the overwhelming sensations that were happening in my body. And so the more that I've been able to sit with myself, then things can happen and I can be emotional about it. But I'm not getting so disregulated. And when you trust yourself to hold big emotions, you then trust yourself to have intimacy and show parts of yourself and be authentic and be vulnerable because you know that you can handle it no matter what.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yes It's so true. And what are suggestions that you give? So you gave the idea of like legs up on the wall and things like that. What would be a handful of ideas you could give to people listening of how they could do some of that daily regulation stuff?

 

Michelle Panning:
Yeah, So something that I do really love and I know is really popular at the moment is called therapy. I'm not I'm not telling you to go do ice baths like that is intense. And honestly, for someone who has a lot of trauma, that is actually going to it worse. Yeah. So by doing ice baths, but I do like to have I will have like a hot shower and then I will do like a minute of the end of my shower on cold and just like it's just enough that it's a bit of a shock to the system. But what you're actually doing is intentionally putting your system under a little bit of stress so that you learn how to regulate through that stress. So then when stress comes up in real life, you're already practiced at knowing how to move through it, right? So something like that is what I would recommend. I would recommend, like I said, legs up on the wall. I would recommend even something like and it depends because if your if you tend to be more like fight or flight, you're going to want to do things that bring you down that down, regulate you, okay? That soothe you. So the legs up on the wall breath work, but a gentle breath work practice to bring you down. If you tend to be more in free, is you want to do things to upregulate your nervous system. So something I love doing is like just a shaking practice, right? So just stand feet flat on the floor and just shake your whole body for 30 seconds to a minute. Put on a song will shake your whole body and then just stand there and notice, I'm feeling movement. I'm feeling sensations in my body. So you're starting to create energy in your body. It then just things like go for a run, right? Actually exercise things like that. And then same thing. Breathwork can help, but if you want to upregulate than doing a more active kind of breath work practice and there's a million things you can get on YouTube apps, all the things, but those are some of the things that I would recommend just to like these simple practices. Because the other thing too is that people make it make it so fucking complicated that it's like, I need this 20 step regime and that's going to take 2 hours. No do 32nd cold blast in the shower, legs up on the wall, 10 minutes pics shake for a minute. You know, doing these things just to be in your body. Yeah.

 

Dr. Liz:
And that is crucial for people to hear because I know a lot of times people just want people being mean by the way, just won't do it because it's like one more thing on the to do list, one more thing. But when I started implementing, as you're describing, these shorter bursts of things, so when I meditate, I usually do maybe a three minute meditation, not a 20 minute one. And when I do something that is more, whether it's the breathing or gratitude, journaling, things like that, they're just quick and simple. And that's where so many people just miss. The point is that it doesn't have to be perfect. That is actually keeping you in your trauma by saying it has to be perfect, it has to be long. It has to be these things. No, just do it. This goes back to what we were talking about earlier of the change, doing the opposite, like.

 

Michelle Panning:
Just do it and and see.

 

Dr. Liz:
See what happens.

 

Michelle Panning:
Like, I love that you want to do an hour and a half Jodi spends on meditation. That's amazing. But if you've never meditated in your life, maybe you don't do it right. And so I want to say, what was that?

 

Dr. Liz:
I said, do the thing you're going to do. And that is that could be on my to do list for the next two decades and never is going to fucking happen. Let's be clear.

 

Michelle Panning:
Exactly. And actually, one point I want to make on meditation is that for a lot of people, meditation is wonderful and for a few other people, when you are actually so disregulated, meditation can actually heighten that because when you are sitting there and it's telling you to focus on your breath. And I have firsthand experience with this because my disregulation shows up as feeling like I can't breathe. So when I'm doing a meditation practice right, I would sit there and I would start to focus on my breath, and then I would notice that I feel like I can only get 80% of breath and I'm not breathing correctly and now I can't breathe. And now I'm panicking. Now I'm noticing how much I'm panicking and now I'm getting hot. So meditation was like exacerbating the dysregulation. So if that's you, maybe your meditation looks like a moving meditation. Maybe it's walking in nature and just focusing on your foot, on the on the on the road, looking at the trees. Something I love is like a sensual movement practice. So even just using put a song on that you love, preferably one with no lyrics so that you can actually just feel and use breath, touch, movement and sound. So bring your hands to your body and just move your body to the music and feel the sensations that are moving in your body. That might be your meditation versus a formal like home kind of practice.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, that great information. I appreciate you saying that. And it is it is true, especially thinking in terms of individuals who dissociate a lot. They go into the freeze. They there's a lot of shutting down that happens. Sometimes that is just another form of dissociating. It's not actually creating, you know, that regulation they're looking for. So the movement, the being aware of their body could be a lot more helpful. Michelle, you have given so many good insights. You are brilliant. You are a wealth of knowledge. Where can everyone find you and learn more about you?

 

Michelle Panning:
Yeah, so you can find on Instagram at Michelle Panning. And then I also have a podcast called Einfach Your Relationship. So it's very blunt, direct, straight to the point. I am known as the Trigger Queen for a reason. And then if you want to learn more about shadow work, I have a free three day training called Shadowhunters. So that is if you go to my website. Michelle Panning, you'll be able to find that or just on my Instagram, it's there and that literally goes into what shadow work is, what our shadows ego, you know, the shame part. We have an entire call on chain, so if you want to do that, that would be the place that I would start. And then I have a million different programs courses Masterclass that you can do if you want to do more with me.

 

Dr. Liz:
Very cool. Thank you so much again for being here. Everyone go check her out. The information will be in the show notes so that you can find her Instagram. Thank you again, Michelle. I really do appreciate you.

 

Michelle Panning:
Thank you so much for having me.

 

Dr. Liz:
Thanks again, Michelle. So many amazing takeaways today. And thank you all for hanging out on Relatable Relationships Unfiltered. Make sure to subscribe to our YouTube channel. Sign up for my newsletter and find me on Instagram at Dr. Elizabeth Fedrick. This is Relatable Relationships Unfiltered.