Relatable podcast 

Dr. Liz:
Hey and welcome to Relatable Relationships Unfiltered. We often talk about the things to normalize in relationships, but what about the things we should really stop normalizing? Joining me today is Todd Barrett, certified sex therapist. And we're going to be talking all about the things that we need to stop normalizing in our relationships. This is relatable relationships, unfiltered.

 

Dr. Liz:
Hello, Todd. Welcome to Relatable.

 

Todd Baratz:
Hi. Well, welcome. Thank you for having me here. And what's hot?

 

Dr. Liz:
Yes, I appreciate. I'll take all the welcoming I can get. I found you on Instagram as well. I find a lot of our guests and your content really resonated because it is just so real and so relatable. How did you get into creating the content that you do?

 

Todd Baratz:
Well, thank you. I'm glad you like it. How did I get into it? Well, I was mostly bored. I you know, I am a therapist. I see individuals and couples, but I also am a pretty creative person. So I was just kind of bored. And I started Instagram. I was also single for the first time and everyone was asking for my Instagram, everyone meeting dates. So I was like, start an Instagram and kind of express myself creatively. And then I did. And then.

 

Dr. Liz:
Of then here we are.

 

Todd Baratz:
And here.

 

Dr. Liz:
We go. Obviously, it's doing well. I mean, you have a huge community that you hang out with there on Instagram. How long have you been doing it for?

 

Todd Baratz:
Five years.

 

Dr. Liz:
Okay. Okay. So I think we'll probably reach out quite a bit with really just resonating with non sugarcoating, non fluffy, non bullshitting. Like you're just talking about things the way that they are and the way that people can connect you.

 

Todd Baratz:
Yeah. I mean I try to I mean I think everyone has a different preference for how they like their self-help and relational information packaged and I'm kind of more direct and blunt and I don't know, challenging and I think in a fun, fun way. Hopefully I agree. So, you know, some people like it, some people hate it. I don't know.

 

Dr. Liz:
Well, it's just I happen to like it. Well, yeah. And I like how you're saying. Yeah, it's just you that's in. That is exactly when I'm creating content, when I'm showing up, whether podcast or socials. That is what I tell people like that is how I'm going to show up in session, that I'm going to show up, you know, at the grocery store that like it is just me. And obviously we all have our sides and how we, you know, how vulnerable or authentic things like that, that how people go. But I think you can kind of tell a difference when it is somebodies real personality that they're presenting.

 

Todd Baratz:
Yeah, I think so. I mean, therapists, as I'm sure you've experienced, I don't know when you started practicing, but when I started working as a therapist, you know, I was like, don't share your self. Don't tell them your age. Don't say anything about yourself. Yeah. So therapists are often shrouded in so much mystery. But initially when I started practicing, I was like, Fuck this shit. I don't want to do that. I want to swear. I want to laugh and joke around and also be serious. And so I don't enjoy working if I have to, if I can't, if I can't do that so completely. And basically I put myself first and well, I guess you're real.

 

Dr. Liz:
And that's. I mean that. Yeah, that's what people that's what they want to that's what they want to see. That's what helps them to feel less alone. That's also what helps to normalize a lot of what they're going through with relationships. And what we're going to talk about is the things that we need to just stop bullshitting and stop normalizing. And that was you had a post on that that I reached out to you about where I often do things to normalize in your relationship. And you did a twist on from the lens of things we need to stop normalizing. Where did that the inspiration from that or even not necessarily that post, but your feelings around like, we need to stop normalizing this shit. Where did that come from?

 

Todd Baratz:
Well, we're living in a really interesting time because, I mean, I don't know about you, but ten years ago, 15 years ago and older or more, that I mean, I'm 37, so when I was growing up however many years ago, that was I did not have any means satirizing mental health. I did not have any access to like social media that was talking to me about relationships or love or life. And so now that we do, it's a really interesting time because it's awesome. But then there's just so much stuff that we are all inundated with, and oftentimes it gets really reduced and filtered through this black and white, all or nothing lens. And then what happens is that people internalize that as it's either this or that. It's either a secure attachment or an insecure attachment. They're either toxic or they're not, you know, these real big categories that mean big, big things that people have just started to really reduce down to some simplified terms an effort to understand. But it really actually ends up creating a lack of understanding. It really creates a lot of barriers in relationships for people in their lives and in the relationship they have themselves. So. Long story short, things not to normalize. A lot of the things that we see now popping up, being pretty trendy and important, but complicated like narcissism or attachment or what else is on the list. Self-love, like all of this emphasis on these things, you know, in reality are much more complex.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, much more nuanced. And I completely agree. So even starting with the whole narcissism thing, with that being such a buzz word and what I have seen that do is really impede upon a lot of people's maybe ability or tendency to take ownership of their role. And so when everybody is a narcissist that you don't like or everybody's a nasty every ex is a narcissist, and if people don't show up in the way that you want them to show up now, well, of course they can, because they're a narcissist. I think that really like prevents us from doing our own work and it's really actually disempower ring. I know people say it because they're like almost saying it in a way to take this like they are the holier one, you know, So it's from an elevated place. But I think it is so disempowering because then it is basically keeping them in a victim mentality versus seeing like this person might have narcissistic tendencies, but like you also have a choice in how you react or how you show up to that relationship.

 

Todd Baratz:
Yeah, totally. But when it comes to access there for sure. Narcissism.

 

Dr. Liz:
For sure. I mean, clearly, at least for.

 

Todd Baratz:
Now, they're not. Yeah, I mean, it really precludes meaning it really gets in the way of people understanding themselves. Yes. Or everything you said and whether or not they're in a sense of victimization or stuck, they're certainly not connecting to who they are. They're certainly the focus has become more in analyzing other people and other people's bad behavior and putting them in this box of narcissism or toxic this or that, rather than understanding what does this mean, you know, what does this mean for them? What does it mean for me? What does this mean culturally, even if they are narcissists still, you know, what is the impact of their narcissism on you? What's your story? And people aren't exploring that. And if they are, it's really mediated by this hyper analysis of other people's bad behavior that we've kind of put in this box of narcissism or toxic whatever. But totally agree. And that's one of the things that I think I put on the slides and because it's like TV shows, reality TV everyone's talking about not everyone is a narcissist and it's, you know, one, it's kind of harmful because it's a really loaded personality disorder. And statistically, not everybody is a narcissist. Some people are just jerks. Also, you know, the way in which we see somebody else is heavily biased. So we don't take into consideration not only our story, but we don't take into consideration other people's stories. And oftentimes people can act like total assholes for sure and do terrible things while not being narcissists because they themselves have a very deep, long story with suffering, pain, whatever that often gets overlooked because they acted like an asshole. But it's not to say that people should act like assholes or be jerks. It's just to say that there's really you know, there are lots of meaningful stories here that get overlooked with these labels. And so that's one of the things that I think is undeniably so oversaturated in terms of how we talk about bad behavior and how people just default to this labeling of narcissism.

 

Dr. Liz:
Right? And that is not saving any space for that. And that they they could have this horrible, traumatic background and they can be an asshole. And you get the choice whether you're in a relationship with them or not. Not always. But that disclaimer out there, I get it. Not always, but I will say a lot of times we do. We do get a choice of how we move forward in that relationship. And we do get a choice of what that what that dynamic even looks like. And the work that I do, I call it relationship Reprograming When you continue to be drawn to the narcissist, as you're saying, that's something that's a good opportunity to look at, then your trauma background and look at your relationship programing and figure out why is this particular personality type, Why is maybe the more avoidant or the more selfish individual is not necessarily a narcissist. They have these protective mechanisms that have served them and why are you drawn to them? And that's the important part of that. You know, when you're talking about what can we learn from this? What is the bigger story here? For a lot of people, you're right. It's not about analyzing what it is, but maybe we could flip it that it's less about analyzing everyone else and start analyzing why do we keep ending up in the same relationship?

 

Todd Baratz:
Yeah, we have to start with ourself. I really ourselves. I really like the reprograming. I often talk about deprogramming from this shit, the narcissism and all of this stuff, but it's kind of the you're saying the same thing which yeah, I kind of like it better. But yeah, I mean the kind of thing that, the crazy thing and maybe I should said the crazy thing is, is that, you know, when we're labeling someone a narcissist, if they're someone we're in a relationship with, that's really not good news for us both in terms of how we're treated, but also in terms of like you're saying, what drew us to someone who treats us so terribly. And usually, you know, it's really a function of something not so great with inside of us. And that's not anything good, bad. It's not a label. It's just to say, you know, the real red flag is why the person's in your life if they're actually that harmful and the characteristics that we may possess by pursuing someone with such harmful characteristics themselves. And so that that's the real scary part to this whole narrative is that, you know, the overfocus or hyper analysis and diagnosing other people's narcissism in our life is, you know, kind of a red herring and a really big way in which many people tell on themselves by saying that, you know, I have problems and not in a bad way. I have problems, too, but I have.

 

Dr. Liz:
Plenty funny to go around. If you any.

 

Todd Baratz:
Problem if you're being specifically drawn to narcissists. Right. You know, it's a big one and it's one that you really want to try to figure out why that is happening.

 

Dr. Liz:
Agreed. And so then that takes us to another one, which would be that I don't remember exactly how you worded it, but I've had I've done some posts in the past where I worded that like, basically, you don't have to love yourself to be loved and you don't have to be complete. I think yours is. You don't have to be 100% healed to also basically be loved or be in a healthy relationship or and essentially being 100% healed is absolutely not a thing. And so I think that that's another one we need to stop normalizing is we need to stop putting this like finish line on our healing journey, this expectation, because even you and I doing the work that we do for as long as we have, we have our shit and we have I can't speak for you or for myself. Okay, well.

 

Todd Baratz:
I have Joel. I have no problems.

 

Dr. Liz:
What would your ex's say about that? They wouldn't have me around. Can we bring them in?

 

Todd Baratz:
No.

 

Dr. Liz:
No. Okay. I think that the healing journey is just, like, ongoing. Right? We are. But that is what.

 

Todd Baratz:
It means to be alive. It's like discovering yourself. You're going to discover yourself every day for the rest of your life, you know? Sure, there are things that we might be able to overcome in a way where it's not interfering with us and causing such huge dysfunction, but it's still there and it will come up again. So yeah, the healed is it's not a thing that people want answers, they want solutions. It's like a it's all of this stuff is a little it's like an emotional materialism in terms of self-love or healed is that, you know, these are things that are trending and salable in terms of, you know, do these things and you can to do your best in authentic healed self. But the reality is, is that anyone who has lived and experiences life knows that that's just not a thing. You know, that we're constantly going through ups and downs and going all around from suffering to feeling pleasure to waking up randomly in a shitty mood because of a bad dream we had about our early traumas. Who knows? But it's ongoing. True. And I think just culturally we really struggle to acknowledge and accept the fact that suffering is a normal part of life. And and, you know, it's like the universal part of life. Yet there is so much, so much pressure to create a life that's that's like science fiction that doesn't have suffering. And that's just not true.

 

Dr. Liz:
Right?

 

Todd Baratz:
You feel one thing, another thing. It's going to come up.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah. And that that suffering is what makes the pleasure so pleasurable as that. We have the dichotomy there. We have that clear juxtaposition between what these experiences are like and having them living them simultaneously. I mean, we hit those highs and lows throughout a day, throughout an hour sometimes. And I agree that I it's almost offensive for when people present it as as you described it, of saying like, yeah, you heal and then you can be like this too. And you can have. And it makes me sad when I see stuff like that. It makes me sad when I see content like that because it sends such a hopeless message, I think, to so many people that look at that thinking and often whatever the intention of the individuals pitching it this way, I don't I don't know their hearts. I don't know their thoughts. So I'm that's not my point. But it is sending a message to a lot of people, like, I'll never have that. I'll never have that, you know, the highlight reel. I'll never have that perfect life, which I think actually discourages a lot of people from even trying. I know I have a lot of clients that just talk about like, Well, fuck it, because I'm never going to be here. I'm never going to have this or that. So why am I trying?

 

Todd Baratz:
Totally. And it's I'll never have it and something's wrong with me for not having it. Yeah. And so people are freak the fuck out about what's wrong with them and trying to fix it real desperately. And that's a really big problem. I mean, it's like the biggest problem I see with all of my clients is, you know, they're convinced that something is deeply wrong with them because they're suffering and it's disconnected from their entire entire life story, from childhood trauma to just child, to challenge to their identity in the world. And it's just focused on what they've been sold on TV and on social media as how they should be living their life. And so it's a really big problem.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, it is. How do you kind of walk your clients through that? So when you're hearing that famous what's what's wrong with me question that I mean, I have asked plenty of times myself how do you work through that with your clients?

 

Todd Baratz:
Well, I mean, there's a I focus on writing a story with my clients a lot. So, you know, in terms of saying, of course you feel this way and there's nothing wrong with you, there's a reason why you're feeling this way. There's a reason there is meaning, and there's purpose behind what you're experiencing. And so a lot of that comes from developing self-awareness in terms of understanding who we are, why we are, and where we want to go with all of that. That because of the world we live in, we're really never encouraged to develop self-awareness until we enter crisis mode or where, you know, grief stricken or and panic. And we're like, I have no choice but to see someone to help me. And then I see people in crisis and in these modes. And, you know, the first place that I usually start is one, obviously trying to calm them down, but to normalizing what they're going through that people are so disconnected from their own stories. And so I really try to connect people to their stories, which often includes a variety of different traumas from childhood, adolescence and as adults. It also includes identity and culture. And so I really try to broaden their story so they can change their perspective on how they see themselves, the world and other people around them. Because I do I really do believe that, you know, the more conscious we can become of who we are, the more we can extend our consciousness, the more the better our relationships are. Not the sure, I say, the better our life is not in a healed way, but in our last like I don't know what's wrong with me. At least we have a narrative to know why we may be feeling that way, but it's not going to make that feeling go away. But I do believe that, you know, the more we can expand our consciousness, the more we can make the unconscious conscious, you know, the better off we can be in terms of figuring out why we feel, why we think what we want and having a little bit more choice in it. But at the end of the day, you know, you still have challenges and suffering. You just have an awareness of what those challenges and suffering, the meaning behind it all.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, I think the profound aspect of what you're describing is that when those sufferings then take place, we're able to decouple this as an external event so that everyone, everyone experiences external hardships versus this is happening because I'm defective, this is happening because I'm not good enough. I'm not worthy, I'm just fucked up. Like and to be able to make that distinction I think is so powerful that and I walk my clients through similar. We do a timeline where we're identifying those themes starting from birth to present day of like what are some of these themes that have been repeated? But let's look at how these themes or these beliefs about yourself, these beliefs about other people, relationships, the world as a whole, how they were programed into you without your knowledge nor your consent. And now that is the very thing you're living your life with, something that you didn't choose, like you you didn't have a choice over that. And we can tie in intergenerational trauma and all of those things. And as you said, culture and identity, ethnicity, all of these things that were not your choice but have shaped your worldview and have shaped the way that you now see things that are your choice. And when we can make that distinction, it's just that is also empowering because now we know, okay, this was programed into me, I can choose what I want and I can get rid of what I don't. But like, I do have choices.

 

Todd Baratz:
Yeah, I mean, it's a really powerful process and I do the same thing. We're on the same page.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, Yeah. So a lot of.

 

Todd Baratz:
People, they internal. Yeah. They internalize all of these different voices and values and they become indistinguishable. It feels like their hours when really they're, you know, coming from a wide variety of places, parents or grandparents or schools or teachers are tired, people that are in power. The president, you know, every fucking person we know and we internalize them, especially as kids, because we don't have reason like we do as adults. We don't know things and have the and we don't have the capacity for complex acts. So yeah, but like, so I recently started seeing somebody and, you know, I started freaking out with, are they texting me? What does this mean? And historically I would have texted them being like, What's going on? You know, why aren't you know, this is a problem? And the whole texting thing with people in general is an issue. But anyway, I would have put my anxiety in the hands of my partner and been like, Here, you deal with this, you do something so I can feel less anxious. And that was the narrative. My trauma. I didn't know that's what I was doing. I just thought, you know, I'm feeling really anxious right now and it's because they're not texting me.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah.

 

Todd Baratz:
But, you know, this time around, I'm still feeling really anxious, but I know that it's my shit and I know that it's my stuff and I know what the story is. And I have to just sit and kind of tolerate it like this shitty fucking weather right now. And, you know, it actually makes my relationship better because then, you know, my partner doesn't feel like I am an invasive species where it's like you need to manage my anxiety and do things for me, like you're my parent and I can feel empowered and being like, No, this is my stuff. And I can I don't need somebody else to give me something in order to feel safe with inside my body. So the awareness has given me the ability to think differently about it, but it hasn't taken away my suffering. You know, I still have anxiety about it or or the unknown and uncertain place that I am in my current dating life. But I have meaning around what that specific theme in my life has meant, as opposed to just stacking them with all of that and being like, it's their fault. They're not texting me, they're unavailable, they're avoidant. You know, all of this shit that we're being trained to wait to think about relationships and I don't know, it's been helpful. It's been interesting this time around because it's been a while and it kind of works. I still feel chaotic a little bit, but.

 

Dr. Liz:
No, I love this kind of asking me because I can completely relate to that. I am a lover of all things avoidant while simultaneously being a hater of all things. Avoid avoided. But that is what I am drawn to. So I hear what you're saying. I hear your story that that does create chaos because our inner child is like, Hey, do I matter? Do you care? Like, am I anything to you? And our adult selves have to be like, Yo, they're maybe still just out of work. Call her or something.

 

Todd Baratz:
They're a person with their own story that has nothing to do with you. I'm like, Yes, it's such an intense need for feeling valued and and wanted, right?

 

Dr. Liz:
Which we know where.

 

Todd Baratz:
Their responsibility It's, it's yeah, it's rooted in, you know when I didn't feel valued and wanted in my family.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah.

 

Todd Baratz:
So it's there's just there's so many different layers to our stories that is labels and the that the labels really prevent us from seeing and understanding.

 

Dr. Liz:
Agreed and I think that's a good transition because I want to talk about stop normalizing there's multiple aspects of attachment that I think is actually doing us quite the disservice. And one of them is just putting everyone in a box, which is so not the case because attachment styles are way more like a pie chart, would be a way better way to demonstrate what, you know, the different percentages of the attachment styles that we all show up with.

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Dr. Liz:
And so we are not our attachment style. Our attachment style is not our personality. It's not also fixed. Like there are so many things that I can keep going down the list, but there is value in understanding how attachment styles work if we're going to use that information as you just described for ourselves to show up better, there's not value when we use it to again, label people or demonize, villainize, like, well, it's because they're this or that. So they're anxious, so they're crazy, they're avoidant, so they're cold. That is also something that is, I think being is really harmful right now in our culture.

 

Todd Baratz:
Yeah, people love attachment. And I'm saying like, I really like the book attached. Yeah, it's a great book, but it's just been misused like I would really one I forgot who wrote the book, but I really wonder what, you know, what they would have to say about how much this has become a trend and how much people identify Now with an attachment. Start like fully identify, I am this attachment style because that's really not the intended use of attachment, at least during infancy. And certainly it was never intended to be used during as adults with adult partners. It was really intended just as an attachment style with a caregiver. And it's now then extrapolated to adult love and romance and sex. And it's it's really wild how it's like it's gotten so out of control. And then when I, I mean, I think it's maybe shifting, but oftentimes whenever I post something that criticizes said people go nuts in terms of this is, you know, this has been a well-documented thing to you know, this has helped me and made me you know, I saved my life and whatever. So I'm like, okay, fine. But, you know, there's just there's so much complexity here and it's so misused and overused. I just don't even know where to start when thinking about it.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah. So I don't.

 

Todd Baratz:
Even talk about it in terms of I mean, I of course, when I'm talking with my clients, I mean, we talk about attachment a little bit, but it's like, you know, not even the salt in the recipe. It's I don't even know what ingredient it would be, but it's not this main ingredient that like, you know, we see on social media and in mainstream culture.

 

Dr. Liz:
Agreed. So it's a big part of the work, like the practice and the model that I've developed for couples counseling. It's a big aspect of it. But foundationally and I think that it's from the perspective of understanding is where it has value. But you're correct in saying that people are trying to use it in a way it was not intended for. And so it is now become really damaging because attachment theory, it it's not like so cognitive behavioral therapy. Okay, that's a therapeutic model. This is attachment theory. So it's a theory, right, that we're using to have to form like a foundation, an awareness, but not as a it's not a therapeutic model. And so I think that that is where there is the disservice of it being used because first of all, it's people have formed opinions around it that they've made gospel that are absolutely not true. And then the other aspect of it is that when you're constantly throwing those labels back and forth with your partner or even labeling yourself, you are staying so stuck without realizing there is this other aspect of earned secure, like we can work towards showing up in a healthier way. And the value that I see with with attachment styles and how I use them just goes back to what we already talked about with like an understanding of this was your dynamic with your caregiver, so this makes sense why you get scared when this happens or this makes sense why you withdraw when this happens, but then what do we do with it? And that's where the rest of my model came in that I developed is like, okay, that's that in and of itself is not enough. Like we've got to now do something with this information and that something is what are we doing with ourselves? Not how are we trying to change our partner?

 

Todd Baratz:
Yeah, I mean, I totally agree. I mean, it's a it's a foundational map, but it's it's not a compass in terms of, you know, I guess that doesn't make sense.

 

Dr. Liz:
I know exactly what you mean, though.

 

Todd Baratz:
It's it's it's a blueprint of how we learn how to love. But it actually and we can use it and we may not use it depends on how we pick. It depends on a lot of different variables, but it doesn't actually help us through conflict or relational challenge. It doesn't help us to differentiate, it doesn't help us navigate independence, independence. It just really, you know, with couples, I would agree. Yeah, it helps couples understand their partner's shit and their own, but then how to manage that as a completely different story, right?

 

Dr. Liz:
And the misconceptions around it, which is what I I'm in the process right now of preparing a presentation for precis on using attachment theory in couples. And the misconceptions that I, I've like started to talk about in this presentation is one of the issues with attachment theory. So for example, we as a society believe that the anxious is anxious and the avoidant is not anxious, they're just avoidant. Well, that's complete bullshit. They're both anxious. It's how they are. Their attachment style is whether they're using hyper activation or deactivation to manage their anxiety. And I think that that's done a disservice to because it makes the avoidant look so cold and it also gives the avoidant this kind of like finger pointing of like learn how to control your anxiety or you both are showing up dysfunctional just differently but over the same issue. And the compounded aspect to that too, is that, you know, only the anxious fears being rejected or abandoned where in fact the avoidant fears the exact same thing. It's just looks differently.

 

Todd Baratz:
Yeah, there's a lot of anxiety and there's a lot of suffering there. I have a couple of clients that are pretty avoidant and I talk, we talk about it and it's all anxiety. Yes. And it doesn't mean and the sad part is that they do want connection. It's not about necessarily this kind of conscious avoidance of connection. They actually really crave it, but it freaks them out so much that they can't do it.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, I love that. Thank you for adding that. Ms.. That additional misconception. That's avoidance. Also. Do you want connection, right?

 

Todd Baratz:
Yeah. I mean, all attachment styles are about connection, about attachment, and not in the absence of wanting it, but how we adapt to our fears of not getting it or our fears of whatever our attachment needs. But so yeah, there's a lot there that people are overusing, misusing and complete.

 

Dr. Liz:
We agreed. All right, last one. Let's talk about the the self-love aspect of it. Dear God, that's like cringing as sorry, sorry to everyone listening who is all about the self-love and maybe even creating content around that. There's nothing wrong with self-love. The way that it is promoted is so cringe to me. But I digress and I would like to hear from you.

 

Todd Baratz:
Yeah, I mean, all of these things narcissism, attachment, self-love, 100% healed, like all of these things. You know, they have a space, a time and a place that but it's not a black and white conversation. It's a whole spectrum of shit, you know? So I don't really do the whole self-love thing. I know people are sassed with that and, you know, it's like the dig, the healing medicine that everybody is trying to cultivate. But, you know, it's have self-love. Love yourself, but it's not you know, it's not going to radicalize your life and make a challenge free. And also, you know, self-love and self esteem. I don't know what I was reading something recently that was talking about that self esteem and self love, which we can use as a stand up for self esteem, you know, is is something that people seek from like 0 to 40 or something like that. And then after a certain developmental stage come to realize that you know, we invariably will love ourselves one day and hate ourselves the next day, and that it's not this kind of destination oriented thing like we were talking about with Healed. It's not in our love for our self or love for anybody else is fundamentally imperfect. It's fundamentally flawed, it's fundamentally annoying. You know, there is there is no self-love, you know, with music to confirm that we love ourselves. It's an ongoing process. And I like to talk about self awareness rather than self love. And because I think there's a lot of pressure, people have to love themselves and I think it just distracts from finding purpose in who we are and connecting with other people. When we get so hyper focused on I just have to love myself. Like I don't even I couldn't even tell you what that means.

 

Dr. Liz:
Like, I was just going to ask you that. I was literally asking you, define it you.

 

Todd Baratz:
Because to me, like if I were to hop on that bandwagon, for me, it would just mean kind of self-acceptance to a neutral space. Like I'm not going to tear myself down for fucking up, but I'm also not going to be like, You are amazing, You are great. You deserve everything. Like in the mirror. When I wake up in the morning and you know, and I can do that, you know, that's great. But I see it more as like this stance with ourselves that could be neutral about it. Pertaining to self-acceptance. But like, the self-love feels so, like, exuberant and fantastical and like, I don't know.

 

Dr. Liz:
And confusing. And that's like, I'm like, what is that mean? Yes. What is the.

 

Todd Baratz:
Difference? Then it's like when I when I got out of my it was a ten year relationship and it ended five years ago. And I was really stuck for a long period of time. And if I could, I mean, the number of people that told me I just needed to love myself more, you know, I wanted to scream because I'm like one. I don't know what the fuck that means, too. It feels minimizing and invalidating and three, like, I'm going through something major. I'm like, I'm not thinking about self-love. I'm grieving. I'm in a state of loss. Like, I don't know what to tell you, right? But people are obsessed with encouraging self-love and doing encouraging people to love themselves more before they date or, you know, and I know it's just not my it's not I can't.

 

Dr. Liz:
I don't we can't get behind it. We do not vouch for this whole movement is. But we're essentially saying, yeah because I think the problem is that it ties back into what we were talking about earlier with the what's wrong with me question like, why? So you and I are both relationship and intimacy experts and we can't even define this concept. So how are we achieving something we can't even define? And I think that that is what is such a struggle, is that it's keeping keeping people chasing this thing that doesn't exist. And where I see it come up with my single clients is that they, you know, they have this expectation of self-love before they can start dating. And it does keep them in this dark self-sabotaging place because they're trying to achieve this vague thing. And the way it's sold to us is that like we'll just know, we'll know when we start loving ourselves, we'll know when that happens and we don't. So we just keep chasing it. And I think it's just, yeah, it's doing so many people a disservice in terms of their mental health and their healing and their growth because it is a just really unfair expectation.

 

Todd Baratz:
Yeah, I think and I think it comes from a place of self-hate because of people, you know, a lot of people hate themselves and I think their response to hate for most is often, you know, the other end of that spectrum, which is love. And so I think that's where this movement or whatever you want to call it comes from is, you know, many of us came from places, parents and cultures that taught us that we should hate ourselves for who we are or how we feel or what we think. And, you know, taking back that power, for many people, self-love is the answer to that. And you know, I don't want to take that away from them. But but it actually just.

 

Dr. Liz:
Reinforces it, right?

 

Todd Baratz:
Yeah, I think the focus is more I mean, I talk about self-loathing a lot in masochism with my clients, but not as the opposite end of the spectrum of self love. I see completely separate experiences and like you're saying, I have to go on and on, but I don't know what's up.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah. And I think that that pursuit of it often, I mean, to your point, for the people who do have self-love and not that we shouldn't, but when we have made it this pinnacle of our healing and of our growth and a lot of people don't even know what it means, that's the issue. And I use I like how you use self-awareness. I self-respect as kind of like the the filler there that we can define what respect is like. We how we allow people to treat us, how we treat ourselves, how we're taking care of ourselves. We that that is definable. And so that is usually when I have clients that come in and start talking about that or, you know, I express I can't move on until I have enough self-love. I try to replace it with, let's just work towards some self-respect. That would be a good place to start.

 

Todd Baratz:
Yeah, everybody think it is a vague response to self-hate and people really struggling to accept the parts of themselves that aren't that great because let's face it, everybody has parts of themselves that kind of suck. Yeah, we all are disappointing in one way or another. It's doesn't make us good or bad. But I think, you know, as I was saying, we internalize it's those voices that we talked about that are indistinguishable and from the people that told us that we were not lovable. And so then we become convinced that we are not so I think the conversation I wish could be more around self-hate and the experiences that create self-hate, self-loathing, masochistic approaches to life, and less about, you know, the pinnacle of self-love.

 

Dr. Liz:
So I agreed all of that to say, we will now stop ranting about this. But for the people listening at this point is, yeah, focus on increasing your self awareness, showing up with more self-respect and finding out where that self-hate is, is coming from, where is it rooted in? And that's going to be a way more effective approach. And to all the self lovers out there, please do not at TOT and I just try to see our perspective on this. Todd where can people find you? Where are you on website socials.

 

Todd Baratz:
You can find me on Instagram at your diag nonsense or on my website. Todd Baratz dot com But you can say hi on Instagram.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yes. And you should go say hi on his Instagram and check it out because it is it's incredible. It is good messages, very easy to digest and also just gets you thinking so thank you for the work that you're doing. Thank you for being here. I really appreciate it.

 

Todd Baratz:
Thank you. And thanks for those kind words.

 

Dr. Liz:
Absolutely. Thanks again, Todd, for helping us to figure out what to stop normalizing in our relationships. And thank you all for hanging out on Relatable Relationships Unfiltered. Make sure to subscribe to our YouTube channel sign up for my newsletter and find me on Instagram at Dr. Elizabeth Fedrick. This is Relatable Relationships, Unfiltered.