Relatable podcast 

Dr. Liz:
Hey, welcome to Relatable Relationships unfiltered. If only our partners would start doing the things we like or stop doing the things we don't. Then maybe everything would be okay in our relationship, right? Unfortunately, this is not the way that it works. And joining me today is Dr. Nicola pera, licensed psychologist, and we're chatting all about her new book, How to Be the Love You Seek. This is relatable relationships, unfiltered. Dr. Nicole, so nice to meet you. I'm so honored to be here.

 

Dr. Nicole LePera:
Yes, Liz, thanks for having me.

 

Dr. Liz:
Absolutely. And I have to tell you, before we jump in, I will do my best to not overtly sing your praises for this next 45 minutes, however. How to do the work has been such a game changer in my own life, and is probably one of the first books I now recommend to all my new coaching clients. Counseling clients. Such good applicable information and I just really appreciate, you know, your vulnerability in that and the tips and tools you give. And I'm sure you get that feedback a lot.

 

Dr. Nicole LePera:
I appreciate it. I love crossing paths and having seen your work, we are so incredibly aligned. Especially when I meet other professionals from my field or train of thought. It is so refreshing, so, so glad that my book has been helpful.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yes. No. And I agree. And I, I really appreciate when other mental health professionals are able to provide insights into their childhood and the impact of that trauma. And what I really could connect to is a lot of the covert trauma that you talk about that takes place so under the radar and is really easy to be convinced. And a lot of us are convinced that some of those behaviors are in our best interest there because our parents loved us there to keep us safe. And to be fair, from their perspective. Sure. You know, that could be exactly it. But as we know, intention does not negate impact. And that's what a lot of us are living with is the impact.

 

Dr. Nicole LePera:
I'm actually still in my head. Your intro kind of if you would only start or stop when we kind of look to our partners to create change and to speak to this idea of covert for a very long time, I wouldn't have spoke about anything problematic or anything missing in my upbringing. Yet in my relationships, the number one complaint you would have heard me share to partners, as I did many times over the years, was I just don't feel emotionally connected to you. And of course, I then assumed it wasn't me playing a role in that lack of emotional connection. It was something that the partner wasn't doing. You're not present enough. You're not meeting me in this depth, giving me the feeling or some version of that. Of course, until I went on seeking, or so I thought, the perfect partner who would give me a different feeling, not understanding that the reason I felt so emotionally disconnected was because of what I didn't get in my own childhood. That emotionally attuned present caregiver who is able to soothe and help me then ultimately learn to soothe my emotions. So in reality, I was so disconnected from me emotionally and I was holding everyone else responsible for that disconnection.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah. Which is what we so commonly see and run into. And that's when we start to really hit our heads against the wall because we're like, you know, no matter what, no matter who the partner, no matter this, no matter that, without really stopping to recognize. And so what you're describing, as I call it in my work relationship programing, my book is called Relationship Reprograming, which is essentially that process of digging into that and really figuring out how the the process I take my clients through is creating a timeline from birth to present, and they're tracking things and really looking at some of those under the radar, maybe behaviors or consistencies or inconsistencies and how that has influenced their programing. And so while as adults, we might have this logical awareness of what is healthy, what we want, but emotionally, it's really hard for us to be able to either connect to that or accept it because we don't have a template for it.

 

Dr. Nicole LePera:
What I and this kind of touches on the frustration that I that I felt more clinically, though also my own life. And I talked about how to do the work, which was what I continued to see a pattern I found myself to be or thought myself to be incredibly insightful. I worked with many incredibly insightful clients, yet week after week they would continue to report the same patterns. And I saw that same scenario back on to when I was doing a lot of couples and family work. No amount of insider awareness will help us to create change, especially when it's we're subconsciously driven to repeat so many of the habits, many of which come with a multitude of relational consequences that we want to avoid. So until we become aware of the incredible power and pull of these subconscious patterns that were created in our earliest relationships and how we quite literally feel driven to to recreate them, see the role that we're playing. Of course, storing them in our subconscious mind and recreating them outside of our awareness, we can't create change. So of course, incredible change is absolutely possible at any time.

 

Dr. Liz:
Absolutely. And even what you're referencing, the core beliefs of that so that we develop these deep seated core beliefs that are so reinforced and then the confirmation bias, then we find ourselves in these situations that confirm them even more and even more. And so then everything we see is through this lens of these core beliefs. I'm not good enough. I'm not lovable. Nobody's going to show up for me anyway. People can't be trusted and on and on. We can go. But you're right. Without that awareness, to even be able to say I'm being driven by my core beliefs or checking in on that in the moment when maybe you want to react to your partner over something that is solely based in your core beliefs and not because they've done something objectively wrong. That awareness is so important to start with. But I also like what you're saying, is that awareness really can only get us so far, and then we have to identify the tools and how to change ourselves what is within our circle of control to start to shift, to show up differently.

 

Dr. Nicole LePera:
And it's interesting. So when I even I hear you say core beliefs and I talk a lot about the core beliefs, I think universally we all share some version of this idea that were unworthy. Something is intrinsically unworthy about us or unlovable, which is why many of us have adopted. I talk about what I call conditioned selves in my new book. And so if we have this idea right with this self confirming hypothesis, you know, we continue to self confirming prophecy in a lot of ways. We continue to act in a particular way, wearing a mask, playing a role in hopes of avoiding that pain of rejection. And for me, I would have never associated my experience with words like shame. I did not feel that there was this core belief of unworthiness buried inside of me. Yet I had to realize how all of the actions that I was taking, which were often inactions, suppressing certain perspectives, suppressing the large majority, if not all of my emotions changing, even my self-expression in certain instances or relationships being a people pleaser, how much so much of that was based in this idea of shame? And then to speak to the point of creating change While we can change throughout life, we are wired to prefer the familiar. So any for me, any vulnerability, any moment opportunity to share a new perspective that I might have or a different emotional experience that I might be having in a moment or different wants and needs instead of going back into that people pleasing pattern as logically as I'm sure it sounds. well, yes, of course. This is how I'm going to break those habits. I'm going to start to share my perspective, share my emotions so I can be emotionally connected on or my wants and needs. That pull will feel so it will feel so uncomfortable to be to do something new because of the possibility of that rejection that I might either avoid doing the new thing or feel so uncomfortable while I'm doing the new thing, convincing me that I'm doing ultimately the wrong thing.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, which is such a great point in that, you know, we work with our clients so often on that because the but I feel bad, but I feel like I'm being mean, but I'm not a good person if I do that. And then I think that the awareness of what really happens is so hard for a lot of people. And I can completely relate to it is the mind f that starts to happen when you do start to implement these new behaviors, but your original core beliefs and your original programing is telling you like, yo, that that's not safe, not a good idea. Like that's, you know, that's not how you've kept yourself safe in the past. How we believed we kept ourselves safe. And so it creates such a cognitive, cognitive dissonance for so many people that it's a limbo state. And I think that that we we need to give more awareness to that limbo state and we need to give more attention and nurturance. And that is really hard to feel like, I don't know, up from down right now as I'm trying to implement change and I don't know right from wrong and I'm trying to show it better. But it it feels really heavy. And there's this half of me that's telling me I'm doing it wrong. And I'm sure you see that all the time. And I know if you can relate with that personally, but that limbo stage of like what is the right answer here is such a heavy but important part of this healing journey.

 

Dr. Nicole LePera:
I think what you're you're beautifully talking about is the irony that many of us experience when we, you know, are on a healing journey. We're applying this insight, an awareness to create a future that's more aligned or allow us more fulfilling relationships. And yet I think the cliche many of us love to hate, or the saying healing isn't linear, it doesn't necessarily begin to feel better immediately. And in talking about this limbo, I think this is why it's so incredibly important and why I was able to achieve so much transformation in my own individual life. And now, as I kind of teach more globally to work holistically because the ability to embody that limbo state isn't just us affirming our ability or, you know, hearing as listeners are, you know, as kind of attesting to, yes, limbo is uncomfortable. So kind of telling you in your mind the next time you feel that discomfort, it's okay. It's it's uncomfortable. I can I can be here. It really is a bottom up process. And many of us, most of us, I should say, as adults, have to teach our bodies. I know for me, I was so habitual, unconsciously efficient at avoiding any and all discomfort because of that lack of attunement. I create it, as I call it, even a spaceship to live on. In this completely dissociated, disconnected state. Though I was able to go about the motions of day to day life quite effectively, achieving a lot, carrying relationships, maintaining relationships. And so ultimately, again, it is a embodied state, the ability to tolerate discomfort, maybe disappointing people, maybe tolerating all of the different emotions energies we're going to feel in our body as we're even honoring our emotions in a new moment and then tolerate the react reactions that we may get from others around us as we begin to at minimum violate their expectations of us. Because in relationships we form dynamics which create expectations. well, you've always showed up for me in this way, and now you're not. And if we have an individual on the other end of our new boundary, say, or honoring of our wants and needs, who has any abandonment on their own, then we might have to tolerate the discomfort of disappointing someone of their reactivity. So again, I think what for me is was so insightful and continues to inform my own evolution is applying this embodiment into teaching my body quite literally, how to tolerate more stress, more discomfort, so that I can be in that limbo without returning, as we will all do to those old habitual reactions or dynamics in our relationships to relieve the discomfort.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, and thank you for normalizing that, because. Absolutely. And something I speak about so often on this podcast, on, you know, on social media as even as experts in this field, we are humans first. That's it. We're humans first. And so you and I are doing the same work every day with as much knowledge and as much research. And it's still work because we are so programed, so wired in a certain way. And I appreciate you normalizing that and I appreciate you being vulnerable, vulnerable about that, because I really think that is a powerful thing for people to hear so that they're not throwing in the towel. You know, like, well, I'm never going to reach X level. And it's it's there's not there's not a destination like it is. It is a day to day process when we're talking about allowing our bodies to get used to that. I think the first thing even with that is that so many of us are going through our day to day lives with all of these discomfort. So the pain in our stomach, the tight chest, the stress in our shoulders, and often we don't even realize where that that's correlated with something, that there's something more going on there. It is just become so our norm. How do you help people to start really checking in on that and identifying like a baseline versus No, this this physiological response is trying to send you a message.

 

Dr. Nicole LePera:
That's a really beautiful point because we become so habituated to our baseline. I mean, for me, it even was down to my posture, which kind of began to because of all of the construction of a stress response for four decades, ultimately of my life, my shoulders started to hunch over. I was in this almost protective stance in my, you know, vulnerable heart space. And for a while, you know, I just assumed, well, that's just how my body has developed, not understanding that all of that was a byproduct of stress and tension and emotional emotional energy that was living in my body. And speak to your beautiful point. I mean, the large majority of us have so much I mean, even the way I think that we're living as as humans these days is so unnatural. I mean, I've spent up until more recently, the large majority of my entire life living in a city environment with loud noises, living on top of other people with sirens. Right. With concrete and not nature. And all of this has just become so normalized, though we don't understand the impact that it has on our body and the impact or the what it offers us in terms of continuing to, say, distracted from our body. I used to love the fact that I could always have something to do 24 hours a day. When I lived in New York City, it gave me the opportunity to not pay attention. And that's, I think, why so many of us keep ourself distracted, outward, endlessly busy, worrying or caretaking those around us, because it's a protection. So the first step, of course, is to begin to become conscious around or aware around what our base level of connection to our body is. Without shaming ourself. Because again, mostly if we are not paying attention to what's going on inside of us, it's probably because what's going on inside of us is overwhelming and we don't yet have the resources to tolerate being present to those sensations. So it looks like throughout the day and I talk about this often in my membership self healer circle the first course I have a release now somewhere around four years ago, every month we released a new course, so it's kind of like a course library members can navigate as they will, though every new member upon enrollment gets a welcome email that suggests the first course and the first course is called Awaken Consciousness. And I actually talk about in this book the consciousness check in that I that I built out of that, which is setting an alarm, setting a commitment to maybe one time a day or during one activity that you do every day drinking coffee in the morning, maybe even putting a Post-it note up somewhere. You're going to walk by on your way to work. And having that moment be a conscious check in, which can be as simple as first noticing. Well, where was my attention when that alarm went off? When I poured my coffee or when I walked by that Post-it note and without shaming that it was worrying about yesterday, fearing what's going to happen next, maybe rehearsing or rehashing an argument or even worrying about something you have to do for someone else in that moment, using that as an invitation to reconnect with your body, checking in, How do your muscles feel? How is your breathing? What about your heart rate? Those are great markers of the level of stress you're carrying in your body. Then, of course, the more you practice that check in, the more we can then become aware of what is going on beneath the surface. What energies am I carrying that might be contributing to this very habitual way of being throughout the day?

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, I have clients who have started to do that actually, after looking more into your content, after reading how to do the work and and that is definitely a different angle of that, but that I have my clients do have even checking in on. So what's going on in my body, where is it coming from and what do I need and using it. Once we can start to identify our the physiological responses that are coming from somewhere, which we have to be really attuned. And I suggest for people to start by even doing maybe like 2 minutes of meditation a day or 2 minutes of deep breathing, of 2 minutes of body scan, whatever it is. But even just sitting in silence for 2 minutes, which is a wild thought for a lot of people, and I would be one of them, that it's a lot of work to get me to convince myself, like just go sit in silence or sit with your meditation, sit with breathing. But I believe it's through those type of practices that we really do get to check in from the tip of our head to the bottom of our feet. What is going on in there? What's happening? What does it feel like? How can we know the difference between when we're just sitting there doing that and when all of a sudden we're feeling triggered, but we don't know that we're feeling triggered. We just know our body is uncomfortable. And so I love the approach that you're using with the alarms because that is a definitely a way to get you used to stopping to check in. Like it starts to become habitual on that end of this is something now I just regularly do stop and check in with my body. What's going on? Where's it coming from? What do I need to?

 

Dr. Nicole LePera:
I mean, ultimately our goal and, you know, I think I imagine you would agree, is to be able to embody that consciousness state to notice first somewhere disconnected. Our attention is elsewhere throughout the day without these reminders so that then we can choose to unhook our attention for it, wherever it may be, and then maybe begin to tune in, say, okay, what are the thoughts that are racing through my mind or the the meanings that I'm assigning to what's happening? What are the sensations in my body? Right? What is that instinctual feeling of what I want to do next so that then we can begin to make those new choices? And I lovelies how you're suggesting such a small amount of time to begin, because I think that some people have the perception when we say sit in stillness, in silence, or even the word meditate, that it needs to be some grand 15, 20, 30 minutes of time. And I like you. When I first met the concept of a mindfulness based meditation, this meditation where we kind of just turn inward, become aware of what's there. Yeah, I was in my twenties and trying to do that in any given, like when I was like, this sounds really important. I'm going to practice this. And I was so overwhelmed. And another, I think, misconception. I was overwhelmed by the thoughts in my mind, by the sensations in my body. I couldn't sit still. I felt I was crawling out of my skin. And I thought, okay, well, this absolutely then isn't for me. Because I think a second misconception is that the goal of meditation, a moment in quiet stillness or whatever we want to call it, a conscious moment, as I'm calling it, is that our internal sensations are internal world, I should say, of thought and sensation. Shut off, go away. And that's not that's unrealistic. So I really like to make a distinction in terms of what consciousness is. It's not silence. Internal silence. I mean, that would be a gift, I think, if many of us could find that utopian place. I'm still looking for it. It's just the ability to be present. And then as you're saying, right, the many of us who have tried what we're met with are raising thoughts that are usually reflective of the tension and stress in our bodies. Our bodies actually physiologically saying, why are you sitting in stillness? There is an active threat. You need to get your butt up and go and take care of what's going on. Then we could become aware, unhook our attention, right, and maybe calm our breath down so that stillness over time can begin to feel more approachable. But again, if we go on with this expectation, that stillness means silence. And when that doesn't happen, if we go in with an expectation that it's going to be comfortable, and if at the same time we don't try to teach our body how to be comfortable or stay safe in that stillness, then this isn't we're not going to be able to create the true practice of consciousness, which is presence to all that's going on in our internal world.

 

Dr. Liz:
Such great points that I tell my clients that all the time when I send them with this with that is homework. And I say, okay, So everyone comes back and says, I sucked at this, or I stopped, and I'm like, You're going to suck at it, Just like, embrace this. You're going to suck at it because it's hard and that's why we don't do it. And the distinction you're making, I just love that. It's a brilliant awareness of go sit with the chaos. If that's if that's what's going to show up when you sit there and sit with that. But the purpose is not to sit in calmness because that's going to be hard to find, but just be present. I just ordered this, I think it's called, and I'm definitely not promoting it anyway because I haven't even tried it yet, but I think it's called like reflect or something. I don't know if you've seen it on Amazon, but it has like this biofeedback. It's a ball you hold on to. It has like metal biofeedback on each side and then connects to an app on your phone so that you can see like respiratory heart rate and you can watch it drop from like an escalated state down to a calm state. And I know for a lot of my clients, that type of thing is really valuable for them to have this visual of what's going on in their body, because again, it's just all so disconnected.

 

Dr. Nicole LePera:
Yeah, I've been seeing a lot of different. That's an interesting one I have not yet seen yet, but a lot of type of biofeedback, you know, apparatuses or whatever we want to call them I think can be really helpful because that for many of us is that first step, right? Seeing visually or more objectively, if you will, though, the most important step, I think, over time is to create the translation, if you will, between the numbers or whatever, however it is, the feedback is presented and then the internal right, what does that and allowing ourselves and this is why I'm always hesitant, I'll give very general categories of what stress could feel like or particular emotional experience could feel like. Though anytime I give categories of anything, I always give it with a caveat that this is not all inclusive, this does not apply to every person. So my hope here right, is in terms of the same extension of that caveat, which is learn the way your body, what it feels like to be in each of our individual unique bodies as our stresses high as our stresses medium and as our stress is low, and not just to rely on, well, you know, Doctor Nicole or, you know, whomever else said this is what it's supposed to feel like. And now I feel even more shameful if my body's presentation of whatever it is feels different. So but I think that's the important. And for a lot of us, I'm a very visual learner, so kind of seeing that objective feedback would be something that I am very interested in, though making sure that we're not forgetting that bridge of. Okay, well, let me check in. This is what the ball is telling me. I'm in high stress or my heart rate is this number. Let me just take a moment to tune inward and see if I can feel. Yes. In terms of sensations, what that feels like in my body.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yes, I love that is that is the important part because there's a good chance you're not walking around with your work every day, all day. So for you to be able to make that distinction. Can you talk a bit about dissociation? I think that that is such a valuable topic that a lot of people have no clue that's even what's happening and I appreciate your rawness around that. So yeah, if you could just kind of share about that.

 

Dr. Nicole LePera:
For me, the only time I ever heard of dissociation was when I learned about in probably even before clinical training. So I've always been interested in psychology, so driven to books about individuals and the dissociation only would for me come up in the context of dissociative identity disorder or historically what is called right multiple personality disorder. And so I would never have imagined applying dissociation to what I was experiencing, let alone what I've come to realize. The large majority of us are experiencing dissociation is actually an action of our nervous system response and all of us are wired the same universally in terms of our nervous system. We will go through a similar sequence of reactions or responses whenever we perceive a threat, something stressful or something upsetting that's happening. And the first thing that both all of us will do is will begin to mobilize energy. Our heart rate will begin to increase our muscles in our tension, in our muscles will increase so that we can do one of two things fight or flee the stress at hand, if that's not possible, if the stress is too big, too overwhelming, or too consistent, then the next thing we will do is quite like an animal will freeze and will begin to play dead. And then the final thing, right? If and when we're completely immobilized, there's no possibility of anything ever changing that because the the thought behind playing dead is, the threat itself will leave. If that doesn't happen, then our body will downshift slightly once again and go into a complete shutdown state. And what that will do in the body or in the mind and really the whole system is begin to create a pattern of disconnection where the safest place for me to be is a million miles away. As I shared all my spaceship. It's a disconnection between the mind and body so that we can navigate the very overwhelming and stressful experiences. And without having this language, something I did notice very early on in my life, probably around high school when my friends and I would start to, you know, relive our childhoods or they would start to retell stories or even just generally always holidays are coming up. Okay, well, this is what the holidays looked like in my childhood. And I began to notice and it became a running joke in my friend my friend group. I couldn't recall I couldn't recall what happened in my early childhood. I couldn't share the story of right the first Christmas. I remember the best gift I ever got. It just wasn't there and I couldn't equally recall times. I would be out with that friend group. They'd be like, don't you remember? We were here last month, or You did this or did that, and I would have the most complete blank look. The truth of the matter was, I didn't recall what it was that happened, so much so that I would I began to harbor a super concern that I must have something wrong structurally in my brain. I was waiting for this inevitable diagnosis. I would get somewhere down the line of why I didn't recall or I couldn't generate what I thought were memories. And I came to realize now, understanding the nervous system and how impactful stress and the hormone cortisol can be on our developing brains. In addition to the psychological protection of being on a spaceship when difficult or overwhelming things are happening, when stress and cortisol increases in our body, especially at an early developmental age, when our brain is quite literally still developing, it's developing into our toes. Cortisol impacts a part of the brain that has to do with memory, the hippocampus. So now I had some understanding. So to translate this to dissociation, because I was so overwhelmed with stress and I disconnected or dissociate it for so long, it did impact my ability to recall what it did not impact. That was my ability to remember because I remembered in my body by all the attention I carried by, I began by continuing to disconnect any time something upsetting or overwhelming would happen in my current life. And as I share this aspect of my journey, this is why I made the statement that so many of us are living or have visited this state of dissociation or disconnection because of the overwhelming stress, not even just in those big cataclysmic moments that I use to define trauma, to be sometimes just the consistent stress. Again, tying all together when we're not emotionally or physiologically able to regulate through it. If we didn't have that safe, attuned caregiver, then dissociation becomes a very common reaction or response that so many of us are continuing to repeat even now in our adulthood.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yes, thank you for sharing that. And that is exactly it. And I talk in my book about how by I remember around seven, my dad used to brag that, like she doesn't cry about anything Like that was like his like it is a badge of honor that I didn't cry about anything. And when I really reflect back on that, I know up until probably about maybe four or five that I did, I know to the extent that maybe when I'm around a four or five year old today that I see, but but that by seven, like that's what I was known for as she does not cry and that is so heartbreaking. You know when we reflect on her inner child, that is so heartbreaking because why did a seven year old not cry? Because what was the point? Because there was no there was no safety. There was those needs weren't going to be met anyway. And that dissociation then became how I stayed safe and to be able just to disconnect and minimize and dismiss my own feelings by seven. So that I didn't have to risk the threat of having feelings. And I think a lot of people, as you're saying, they equate that trauma. Are these big things that happen to us, which of course they are. And they're also the good things that didn't happen time and time again, and that we had to learn how to cope with.

 

Dr. Nicole LePera:
I really appreciate you sharing that and what's coming to mind. And I cite this in my new book. I became known in my family as Nothing bothers me, Nicole, for a similar reason, because externally, internally, and I think this is a bit confusing too, So I want to clarify internally. I felt a lot yes, a lot at the time, quite overwhelmed even. I mean, I spent my entire twenties in one panic attack after another. So I want to clarify that this idea right when I'm hearing outwardly nothing bothers me. Nicole, which then translated into one of my first partners, said that he had cited one of the reasons for our breakup was that I was quote unquote, emotionally unavailable, threw me, was like me, emotionally unavailable. I'm feeling so much emotion. A colleague, when I was in a psychoanalytic training program cited and described me, we were sitting around in a group analysis. We used to do that every Saturday, and she offered her perspective of me, and I respected this colleague a lot and she described me as cold and aloof. And again, I was shocked at all of these right descriptors because internally I was on an emotional rollercoaster the large majority of the time. And something else I want to say about what can cause is right the things that we needed that didn't happen and what can cause dissociation, disconnection in everything that we're talking about. It can be even moments where right we are having an emotion in front of caregivers and we are either directly told, as many do, stop crying. Don't be this is week. Don't do this here. Yeah. Or indirectly, right? Maybe nothing's set at all. But we say a or look or a caregiver removes or distance or leaves the room. Right. And what we're then left with is not only the message that what we're feeling is inappropriate to, to display and we're not safe to be connected in this moment. Not only the belief, I should say that, but it's this overwhelming feeling then that what what we're having inside of us is in. Okay, Right. And I'm left now alone, even more problematically, with these overwhelming and upsetting sensations. And that can activate the same nervous system sequence that I was describing and, and cause this freeze or this shutdown state, which involves this dissociation. So I just want to, you know, as we're continuing to do, expand all of the different scenarios that might have led to the many of us continuing even maybe to live in this disconnected dissociative state.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah. Because as a child, when that happens and we're like, what the hell are we supposed to do with it now? All right, well, I better figure it out. And so then into adulthood, what the hell am I supposed to do with it now? So I better figure it out. And how do you see that this starts to, like, really show up then in our romantic relationships? Because it sure does. And how do you most commonly see that it shows up?

 

Dr. Nicole LePera:
I think very common. And this is in again, from my personal experience, it shows up not only in those moments where we're having a stressful or upsetting experience and. We then habitually disconnect. One of the earliest memories I have with my current partner, Lolly We've met now over a decade ago, so I was very actively dissociated, even in a seemingly not upsetting moment with her. Maybe just, you know, I just was so stressed consistently over the time when her and I met or had a stressful day at work. She would be seemingly excited trying to share her day with me or ask about my day. And often she would wave her hand in front of my. What she was seeing were kind of a blankness look in my eyes, and she'd be like, Are you there? Here you're hearing me. And so this kind of far away, though, I was physically present, you know, seemingly listening, if you will, to what it was that she was saying, though she was able to sense and see in this blank stare almost. And so sometimes it does look like we can catch ourselves staring off into the distance, losing hours of time, tuning out, you know, having a conversation or someone talking at us and we're somewhere else entirely. For me, something I notice very much so is when I'm having emotions. It feels so uncomfortable, right? To be in the presence of my emotion and so vulnerable to let alone be present to it, to share it with someone else, that I begin this kind of habitual pattern. Or I try to at least if I'm not conscious of disconnecting, of squashing them down, of acting like everything is okay externally if it is in okay or of separating myself physically to go be alone exactly as I once was in my overwhelm though at the same time I'm almost in conflict with myself because I don't. Actually, none of us humans want to be alone in our in our upset in any of our emotion. I mean, we need we want to desperately feel and I think this is why, as you and I are doing and one of the things I love about your work is how much you share right. Of your own experience, as much as you've been sharing, even with me here in this conversation, because it is when we hear especially people, right, who have titles in front of their name, I think that there is this perception that there is no struggle. And when you get a glimpse of these difficult moments, it helps us feel less alone in what it is that we're experiencing. So in those moments, I'm of two minds. I desperately want to be seen in my upset and have someone just to hold supportive space. Many of us don't even want advice, suggestions. We don't want to be told it's going to get better. We just want someone to sit in the presence of whatever it is that we're feeling yet in action. My habitual pattern of disconnecting. If I'm even willing to tell someone that I'm upset, I try to push them away. I try to make it such an uncomfortable experience. Essentially, as we talk about beginning, I try to validate that deep rooted core belief that I am alone in this very overwhelming feeling.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, yeah. And that is exactly very well explained of how it shows up in our romantic relationships that the very thing we want, which is the connection, the intimacy, the emotional intimacy, to feel safe is the very thing we tend to push away when we have not checked in on this programing and we have not started our reprograming journey because we don't first of all, we don't know any different. So I think that's very fair to say. You know, for people listening again, like you've said a few times, this is not a shame message. This is all you know. But now that you know better, we get to do better. And that is, you know, everyone listening in, everyone who's read your books and looks at our content. And when you're starting to learn these new ways about about being, about being present or about being in relationship, we get to the next step is to start practicing it. And I think that that so important. And the last thing I would love to talk about, which ties directly into this is the CO regulation piece because co regulation I spent many years working in the birth to five world which is a lot of attachment formation as well. That's when attachment formation is happening but gave me such a lens for the relationship work that I do at working directly with the the birth to five population and the co regulation whether at six months whether at 60 years old, is one of the most powerful things we can do for another human.

 

Dr. Nicole LePera:
100%. And for me, learning about the nervous system as I did when I was outside of my clerical training and how foundationally important those co regulative moments and that emotional attunement connection which allows for those co regulative moments in the beginning, in our developmental years, of course it's important throughout life, but how foundational they are in those early relationships, that developing nervous system that I referenced earlier. Right is evidence. When a child's upset, an infant cries whether because they're hungry right there or they're sleepy, they need sleep, their body is stressed. A toddler, whether or not it's having an emotion or whatever is happening. Right. All of these different even not audio or auditory signals, like all of the different shifts and changes that indicate when there is an unmet need, when a child is in a stress state or in an upset state, are all markers that that nervous system quite literally needs the safety and the security of a safe and grounded nervous system around them to come back through soothing behaviors into their own peace and calm. And I think, again, this is not to shame parents. This is why I will always say parenting. Well, parenting advice has shifted and changed quite a lot over the past decades, thankfully, because this conversation about coagulation and emotional attunement was not even part of it a couple decades ago, and it was very much behaviorist stick, right? You punish the bad things, you reward the good things. There is no talk about a nervous system needing no regulation. You let a cry it out right before bed in the bedroom or whatever it might be. And so parenting advice has changed. Now, thankfully, there's a lot of very good, very nervous system based parenting advice out. There are a lot of beautiful books out there even yet. This these are the moments where even those of us who are raised by very well-meaning parents who knew what happened in their past was something that they want to avoid in their own childhood, I should say, was something they want to avoid recreating. This is where no amount of information is going to be able to create the embodiment of a safe and secure nervous system. So as both of us continue to emphasize the importance of practicing, of being the parent, it's not having the right script to say when your child is disregulated or upset or using, you know, kind of it's about applying and regulating your own nervous system so that you can be present to your child's upset and all of the emotions that are probably being caused in you in reaction to their upset. Yeah, you can return right to that calm, grounded state so that you're then safe and secure nervous system can communicate signals so that that child can then regulate themselves. This is how we learn over time. We then internalize that process practice, and we develop the ability to self-regulate, even more importantly, the safety and security. And one of the takeaways I hope from my new book entirely is for us to get a little more aware of all of the different ways habitual ways were showing up on our relationships and how we might even define what a relationship is or are supposed to be or what love is, and creating a new definition of, in my opinion, what love is. Love is creating that safety and that security in upsetting moments in our general environment, in our relationships, the safety and security that we as individuals need to be ourselves, whatever that self is. In any given moment, however we're feeling whatever we want to say, whatever we need to do, and to give the most incredible gift, which is gifting another person with the safety and the security to be themselves. Because then we allow our relationship to shift from all the dysfunctional cycles and patterns that many of us have carried and repeated throughout decades of time from past generations. We can shift our relationship dynamics through code regulation and this creation of safety and security into more interdependent relationships where we have the ability to be ourselves as unique as each of us are as individuals, and we gift those around us with that same opportunity to be themselves. So where I can be me and you can be you, and we can join together in collaboration and harmony and negotiate for a future that considers both of our and even at our extended groups, communities and societies best interest.

 

Dr. Liz:
He has such a good explanation of that. Thank you so much. And I love that part. In terms of it leading to self regulation, there is such a misconception that when we do let the child cry out, when we do let the child figure it out their own, that is how they develop resilience. And so much of the present research talks about it is the safety that a child feels through that hard time. That is actually what leads to resilience. Otherwise we head into disconnection and dissociation and all the things that we've been talking about. But true resilience comes from knowing I can go through a hard time and somebody will be there to help me through it. And the same goes for our adult romantic relationships. We can go through the hardest of times and we know we have that rock and that we can return that favor, that it is both. It's a mutuality to that. So thank you so much for explaining that. Dr. Nicoll. I really appreciate your time. I have so appreciated this conversation. This is obviously both of our passion and what we have committed to our lives do. So I appreciate that. Where can people find you? Web website socials work in your book be found?

 

Dr. Nicole LePera:
So thank you, Liz, for the beautiful work that you continue to put out. It was I was truly looking forward to this one and connecting with you and thank you for welcoming me into your community. Anyone who wants to join my social media community at this point, there is a holistic psychologist account across all of the different social media platforms. It all began on Instagram. The DOT holistic dot psychologist. There is an account on YouTube, on ex, on Tik Tok, pretty much anywhere you consume content. I absolutely. You suggest we have these conversations every day. We have an incredible community. I have a website, the holistic psychologist dot com where you can get any information just on the general happenings. I put out a lot of often free meditations, free content and through my email list also information on the self healers circle my global community. We're actually getting to open up for enrollment. We only do so three times a year that we're opening up the first week of January, so we're super excited to welcome new members in globally in that community. And I have a website put up for this book in particular, How to Be the Love You Seacom that overviews all the different retailers that I know are carrying the book, though I know most major retailers and a lot of local very excited about retailers are carrying the title on hand. So I suggest if you have a particular bookseller you like to give a call and they very well might have a copy.

 

Dr. Liz:
Perfect. Thank you so much. And it's been so fun watching you leave them all over the place. You've been leaving them on public areas and beaches and going in and signing some of them. That's been really fun to watch. It's I'm sure it's blessed a lot of people to be able to find that I love.

 

Dr. Nicole LePera:
That's one of my favorite parts. And stay tuned. We have so many more to be gifting out. One of the fun things we do with the community is a scavenger hunt, so we've sent community members packages of books so they'll be popping up on their personal, you know, social media feeds of where they're putting it up. So it is really fun, a fun way to not only get the community involved and show our appreciation, but to continue to spread the works. I am of the belief that you find your way to these messages, to communities like yours and ours when you need it. And I love to be able to to facilitate this message traveling all over the place.

 

Dr. Liz:
I completely agree. I love that. Thank you again, Dr. Nicole. I really appreciate it.

 

Dr. Nicole LePera:
Of course. Thank you again for having me.

 

Dr. Liz:
Thanks again, Doctor Nicole, for helping us to learn how to be the love we seek. And thank you all for hanging out. Unrelatable relationships unfiltered. Make sure to subscribe to our YouTube channel, Sign up for my newsletter and find me on Instagram at Dr. Elizabeth Fedrick. This is relatable relationships, unfiltered.