Relatable podcast 

Dr. Liz:
Hey, welcome to Relatable Relationships Unfiltered. If you struggle with performance anxiety, you might feel really alone. But it's actually incredibly common. And joining me today is Cam Frazier, Australia's leading men's sex coach. We're going to chat all about where this anxiety comes from and what we can do about it. This is relatable relationships, unfiltered. Cam, welcome to Relatable. Thanks for coming to hang out.

 

Cam Fraser:
No, no worries. Thanks so much for having me.

 

Dr. Liz:
Absolutely. Yeah, I'm looking forward to talking about this topic today of performance anxiety. When I create content around making sex better or when I'm talking with my clients about how to improve really the enjoyment of sex. I talk a lot about pleasure over performance, but a lot easier said than done, right? So when we're thinking about what we focus on in the bedroom, often it's about performance.

 

Cam Fraser:
Yes, very much so. I speak obviously with a lot of men. They reach out to me almost every single day and speak to me about, you know, sexual dysfunction issues. And a lot of the root causes of those sexual dysfunction issues is the underlying anxiety about performing in the bedroom and what it means to perform. So. Yeah, there's a lot of stress, tension and anxiety in the body that manifests as as other concerns down the line.

 

Dr. Liz:
And what does that usually when when we're thinking about performance, what is usually tied into that anxiety? Like what are some common things that you hear people talk about that creates the anxiety for them?

 

Cam Fraser:
Yeah, there's a script that needs to be followed for a lot of people, and that's regardless of gender, right? Like there's an expectation that sex is supposed to look a certain way, that your body is supposed to function a certain way. And if it doesn't, then something is wrong with you. And so there's these expectations that are created and we can have a conversation about where those expectations come from. Pornography is one place. Media in general is another place. Social media influences is also another place, right? That there's is stories and narratives that we are expected to adhere to. And then when we don't live up to that, then that can create anxiety in our body and that anxiety manifests as tension and so on and so forth. And so there's really these unrealistic expectations. I feel like one of the most common concerns for that performance anxiety. And one of the other things I think is also really important to like, identify is like the way that sex is often framed as a performance and not as something that is, you know, focusing on pleasure. Right. So the performance oriented approach to sex where like there's it's a win lose scenario, right? Like if you don't put in a good performance, then the sex is going to be bad. And if then the sex is bad, that means that you're a bad lover. And if you're a bad lover, then no one's going to love you and you're going to be alone forever. There's a lot of catastrophizing that happens when we take this performance oriented approach to sex. And and yeah, that's when the comparison starts to come in, right? Which feeds back into like, I'm going to be having sex the way that this person is having sex because that's the expectation that sex or, you know, I'm comparing myself to maybe a lover's past partner and I'm not as good as they are. And so there's this comparison and competition piece that comes in when we take that performance oriented approach. And all of that is amalgamated to create that anxiety around what sex is supposed to look like, right.

 

Dr. Liz:
And then takes away so much of the fun, so much of the enjoyment, so much of just the the play aspect of it, that it is now no longer about connection or just doing it for the sake of enjoyment. And now is a task, it is a chore, it is an expectation, and pretty much none of us in society need any more tasks or chores or expectations. That is like that is what rules our world. And so that's one area that we really would be a beautiful thing to just let loose and have fun and enjoy ourselves can be really hard to do. And I think that the judgment piece of it is a big part of it, of worrying how your partner is going to judge you. And then what does that mean for you as as you said, as as a lover, as a person, as a, you know, whatever it is. But there's that fear of then rejection and abandonment that comes along with if you're not meeting these expectations totally.

 

Cam Fraser:
And I think that fear of rejection and that fear of judgment is one of the things that hinders people from even talking about sex in the first place. Right. We know one of the things that's going to help alleviate that performance anxiety is opening up those conversations and being able to talk about desires and fantasies and turn ons, as well as boundaries and limitations in turn offs. But the thing that's stopping a lot of people from even initiating a conversation like that is the fear of like the fear of being vulnerable. Right. As Bernie Brown kind of really beautifully talks about, it's like I'm putting myself out there and what if I'm not accepted by my partner? What if they reject this part of me, this this really, you know, intimate part of me? You know, there's there's that fear and the anxiety around that. And I think that also leads into that performance anxiety piece as well, too, to really open up and be vulnerable in that sexual sense as well. The fear of being being, you know, not met in that space with your partner, I think is really a piece that links that performance puzzle. And what I'm curious about as well is, you know, I try to help refrain from performance the pleasure for my clients. I mean, for anyone that will listen to me, really. And one of the analogies that I use is rather than thinking of our sex life as a sport, right, whether it's like a competition piece or there's that performance piece where we can either win or lose. I talk about it being a gym sesh between two musicians, and for the life of me, I can't remember where I first heard that. That's not my original idea. I want to be clear, but I really like this idea of like two musicians coming together for a just a jam session where there's no impetus to record anything or to create really, you know, studio quality music, but just to have some fun. And the play element within that. And my lovely wife is a musician, so this is like something that really Lance for her is like just coming together in and having a, having an opportunity to like feel into each other's, you know, genre of music that you like to play or like how well you play your own instrument versus how well you know, your partner's instrument, like feeling each other out for a moment and then playing some music that feels like enjoyable to do in the moment. So that's the analogy that I use to kind of help land the difference of approaches to sex. But I'm curious if you've got a way that you help people shift from performance to pleasure.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, well, so I usually dig into it and I love that analogy, by the way, and I'm just even thinking so music is not a big thing for me, but like intellectual foreplay, as I call it, is so going to museums, going to look at art and then collaborating on what we're both interpreting and talking through it in that way. And that's what came to mind as you were talking through that of like really a be more about a collaboration where each bringing our strengths to it were each praising each other's strengths in it versus having this expectation that you need to, in your analogy, you know that you need to play the same way that I do, but rather that it complements each other. And I love that. That's that's a great analogy. I usually dig into their beliefs around. So what is their narrative around sex and and where did that come from? And so whether it came from shame based messages, whether it came from a lot of permissiveness, maybe there wasn't boundaries and nobody was protecting them in childhood. And so they were overexposed early on. Or as you're seeing with pornography, social media, like what is their narratives and how is it then showing up in in the bedrooms? And that is usually where I start to dig in in order to shift it, because if you are showing up with like you have to look a certain way and you have to last a certain amount of time or you have to finish in a certain amount of time or and you know, all of those conflicting messages. And I think that those narratives really get in the way of just allowing pleasure to be pleasure for the sake of pleasure, which is really hard for a lot of people.

 

Cam Fraser:
Yeah, I really appreciate that approach to looking at narratives, and I can speak from personal experience yet that I was very concerned with the narratives of what sex should look like about what I should look like as a man being sexual as well. And that led to a lot of anxiety in my teenage years, specifically where, you know, I can personally share here, like my approach to sex was quantity over quality. And apologies for the vulgarity of the next phrase, but it's very common here in Australia as a mentality. But every hole as a goal was like the language that I would use as a 17 year old boy when I thought about sex, and that was because I was adhering to the script. So these narratives around masculinity and what it meant to be a man and you know, that was very much like, yeah, you should always be wanting to have sex. Sex should be like, I should be the dominant and assertive person in a sexual encounter and like I should be the one that gives my partner orgasms. It's my responsibility and so on and so forth. And I was very lucky that at around the age of 19, I started to go see a narrative therapist. So someone who did narrative therapy with me. And one of the biggest takeaways from that for people that like maybe you're unfamiliar was just like identifying with the stories I've been telling myself about what it means to be a man, what it means to be a sexual man, you know, and this is this applies generally. Like what does it mean to you to be a lover, right? And and kind of discerning. Is that a healthy story? He's actually helping me. Am I actually benefiting from adhering to that narrative or that script? And if I was great, like if it was if it was helping my relationships and my sex life, then let's integrate it and embody it. But if it actually wasn't and what was the evidence for that? Like, how can I get rid of that story and recreate a new one? Like, how can I rewrite the narratives and get to some new scripts that feel more authentic and feel more genuine? And like I said, at around the age of 19, that's when I started doing that work, really. It really transformed my my approach to my relationships with myself, my relationships with women, and even my relationships with other men in my life. I feel like I started in the most compassionate way possible, kind of stopped giving a fuck about their like, I guess like opinions about me is I have a lot of performance anxiety, not only in a sexual sense, but also in like a peer group sense as well. I felt like I had to perform my masculinity, perform who I was as a young man among my friendship group, because if I didn't, then there was this anxiety related to being bullied or being caught up inferior or being ostracized or outcast or whatever it might be. So I think it's helpful to identify that performance anxiety isn't just exclusively something that happens in the bedroom, but it's something that can happen, you know, universally in multiple areas of your life and helping kind of like learn that can be useful for like a holistic approach to working through that anxiety.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, I love that you bring that up because that is such a good point in the way that performance anxiety might show up, as you're saying, socially or career wise, dating. Like we can go on and on. The way that it shows up also impacts those environments in the same way that it impacts you in bed. So when you are so consumed by your anxiety and you're so consumed about what everybody is thinking about you, and if you're good enough, and if if you are meeting all the expectations, that's really hard to show up as your authentic self. And then it's also really hard to just even be present, to be just in the moment. And we see that that is some of the most common things that impact a sex life is when this anxiety becomes so consuming that, you know, maybe you're very limited in what you're willing to try or where you're willing to try it. Maybe you just want to get it over with so that like you don't have to sit in that anxiety. And I think it really takes away from the power of the connection, the power of the even the emotional intimacy that could exist if there are, you know, the the safety was there just to be yourself. And and I would love to get your take on this. I think that both so if we're just talking about, you know, two people having sex that I think both of them can have a role in creating safety for. So it is our responsibility to be aware of our insecurities and our anxieties and where that comes from and how it's impacting us. But I also think that a partner being able to show up as safe and reassuring and sensitive also goes a really long way in our willingness to try new things or to, you know, start to reduce some of that anxiety.

 

Cam Fraser:
Yeah, totally. And something that I often share with my clients is holding an energy of that's not a big deal. So like, for example, that performance anxiety typically is like a psychological experience, but that can manifest as a physiological experience like erection issues or coming quite quickly or if it's, you know, for that I look at a lot of heterosexual men, so a lot of their female partners, it might be maybe some dryness or some like inability to relax and surrender. And so what I'll say is, like, if you can hold that energy of like, hey, it's not a big deal, then I'm not going anywhere. This other things we can do, we can explore pleasure in other ways, like pivoting to a different type of sex act that is a bit more comfortable that maybe doesn't involve in erect penis or penetration. So like within that there's a conversation around diversifying your sexual experiences together and that but that like, you know nonjudgmental or kind of supportive again not a big deal energy is it's at least in my experience not only personally but also professionally is like such a beautiful space to to hold for yourself and for your partner because it allows that positive momentum to keep going. It doesn't like stop the sexual experience, which oftentimes is what will happen is like all of this because we have these scripts that we follow about what sex should look like and we're anxious about nice scripts. If something doesn't go, quote unquote to plan because our body doesn't cooperate or we you know, it's the anxiety kind of hinders from doing something. And very often for a lot of couples, that's like a closing down of that whole thing. And because of that performance approach, then sex is now a failure. And so if you're able to mitigate that from happening by going, Hey, look, it's fine. I'm not I'm not going anywhere. This isn't throwing me off like I'm happy to, you know, roll with the punches here and keep going and, you know, try something else then that very often alleviate some of that anxiety. And because that anxiety's alleviated the, you know, Kookmin sexual quote unquote dysfunction that's kind of happening at the same time, very often, if it's psychologically induced, is also going to be somewhat alleviated so that the erection comes back, that duration of sex can happen, maybe some lubrication happens, maybe that relaxation happens, whatever it might be that's associated with that anxiety can be really alleviated with just that, that simple shift of like, hey, I'm I'm not going anywhere. This is fine. Let's let's keep going and you know, relax into this.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah. And that reassurance is is so important because even as you're describing that, I'm thinking about how common it is when maybe one partner's body is not responding in the way to demonstrate that they're aroused. And so then that creates often anxiety for the other partner because now they're in their head of why am I not arousing my partner? And so then they often have a reaction to that versus for them to say to their partner and just provide reassurance in that moment that, as you're saying, like no big deal, let's let's pivot, let's let's just lay here and talk for a few minutes, let's whatever the reassurance is, but taking it then back to what we were talking about with how people don't talk about sex and I talk about this so often because it is something I really want to get through to people. People are not talk, couples are not talking about sex. So leading up to their sexual experiences, they're often not talking about it. If they've been in a relationship for 20 years, they're often not talking about it. And so there aren't conversations around. These are my insecurities, and this is what I'm afraid might happen. And this is what I'm afraid that you might do if this happens and this is what I want to be for you. But I'm afraid I can't be, you know, all of those very, as you're saying, very, very vulnerable conversations, very raw, and at times can be embarrassing. That's just they they can be again, back to the narratives. But regardless, and because those conversations aren't happening, there is not that space prior to the sexual experience to talk through how might we handle this if it does come up or if it does come up? Let me let me make sure you know how I feel about it in advance, in case it does. And how I feel about it is I don't care. I think you're sexy. I think you're attractive. I we you know, we'll do something else. But because these conversations aren't happening, there's like the protectiveness. There's not any preparation put around it. And so you're both they're in the moment completely in your own heads, completely worried about what the other one is thinking. I'm and like not even creating space or opportunity for the those moments of reassurance.

 

Cam Fraser:
Yeah. I don't like to be dogmatic or prescriptive necessarily, but a little golden rule that I at least try and live by is don't do anything sexually that you don't already feel comfortable talking about. And I feel like a lot of people are doing that right? They're jumping into sexual situations that they actually don't even feel comfortable having a conversation about in the first place. And so I'm wondering, what are your strategies for helping couples or even just sexual partners initiate conversations? Because there's a there's a hurdle that I see like actually getting this conversation started. I'm wondering what your strategies are for that.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, there are absolutely is. So especially when I'm doing intimacy coaching, that is something that we focus on right away. We focus on the regular check ins of you know, just emotional intimacy and how are you doing? How can I show up? And then we also tie in the sexual intimacy. And what I often suggest for people to do is to purchase like an intimacy desk to find. I post questions on my Instagram, so I'll send them those posts, but I provide them with examples and I provide them with somewhere to start. Because you're absolutely right. When this is not something you're used to, it feels so wildly uncomfortable. And so then what happens? And we're uncomfortable. We make immature jokes or we laugh or we say, Never mind or we, you know, we make it so much worse than it has to be. And so I am similar in the sense that I give some guidelines around it that I say, first of all, find some to start an intimacy desk to me is the best because you can just draw a card. There's no like, no, you know, no set up here. We're just drawing a card. You guys are both going to answer it. You're going to practice communication skills around it. So RV is the tool that I use to reflect, validate and explore. So that's going to go on. And then I also do put some like, it's fine if you laugh, it's fine if you say like, this feels awkward, say it for what it is. But attempt to avoid the juvenile or the immature that the junior high jokes that tend to come up in those moments because then that is just makes it awkward. Not in a good way. So those are those are some of the boundaries I suggest. How do you usually have them initiate it?

 

Cam Fraser:
Well, very similar, and I really love that approach, almost like the gamification of initiating this conversation. So I like a talk about alleviating the burden of initiation. Right. So one of the things that I would suggest is similarly like a deck of cards and the deck of cards has like a almost like a would you rather game. And so like, would you rather this or this? And it gives them opportunity to have a bit of fun and playfulness with regards to the conversation is for again, for a lot of couples, like those conversations are like really heavy and awkward and can feel like quite vulnerable and quite intense. And so if we can inject a little bit of playfulness, a little bit lightheartedness, it can help, you know, to say lubricate the conversation. And the other thing that I'd like to suggest is like a yes no maybe list. So just a long PDF of a bunch of different sexual activities and, you know, reproductive health options and things like that. And, and you either go through it together over a glass of wine or a cup of tea and indicate, you know, if you're a yes to this activity and know or if it's in your maybe column, if there are certain situations where you know happening or you do it separately and then you come back and compare, there's like some some apps I won't mention any app names for this, some apps out there that you can like, you know, indicate your preferences and boundaries and things like that. And then your partner can do the same and you get matched, you know, with things that are that are in alignment. And so it's a little bit more anonymous. And there's, you know, I'll do like intimacy dose as well. Like that's a fun little thing to write down and like there's some conversation starters there and then there's like some like, yes, they like sexual activities, but they're not so genital specific as well as that's a way of like incorporating a bit more touch into the that and the conversation. Oftentimes this is something that's really relevant to to men. So if you're trying to get a man to open up about his like vulnerabilities and insecurities, one of the things I always recommend is going and doing something physical with him. So doing a physical activity with him. So either going for a walk or, you know, going on a bike ride with you able to have a conversation or even just like, you know, this is something that comes up for me. I'm a soccer player, so I kick a soccer ball around my apartment. We go outside and we literally just stand and, you know, and she's gracious enough to kick a soccer ball around with me and help me kind of process in that moment. But it helps me get me out of my head and into my body. I find that's really helpful for a lot of guys rather than the classic sit down across from one another at the dining room table and say, We need to talk. And I recommend like chunking conversations down as well. So rather than having like a if you've never done it before, there's probably a lot of things you want to talk about with regards to intimacy and sex life with your partner, so you don't really know where to begin. That's definitely has been true for me and ST for a lot of the guys that I work with. So it's like, let's just track it down into a smaller bite size conversation about this particular thing. And, and even if you're able to like, you know, have those conversations a little bit more frequently throughout the week rather than like late at night when you're in bed. And so that becomes normalized and not just like exclusively bedroom oriented or, yeah, you know, sexual scenario oriented conversations, if you can have it while you're in line getting a coffee with your partner at the local coffee shop boy while you're eating lunch together where it's like a non sexual situation, it can help normalize those conversations and and help them be a bit more frequent and accessible as there's a few suggestions in there. And all of that helps alleviate that anxiety, which is what's going to contribute to that, you know, performance anxiety in the first place.

 

Dr. Liz:
Right? Such such good ideas. And I agree. I love how you mentioned about making it like kind of making it smaller, chunking it down. And that's usually what I suggest is either, you know, do it for maybe have conversation for a half hour of pulling cards, maybe only pull like three cards each, something like that. But I agree with that because if it feels really overwhelming, then it's you're going to have then anxiety about that. And it's there's it is going to defeat the purpose. But also what I see is that often maybe one partner wants to keep going or wants to keep talking about it and the other one does not. And so then that creates even rejection around talking about it, and then that translates. And so I often find that putting some some boundaries and some just guidelines in place can be really helpful that nobody has to feel rejected here. Nobody has to feel overwhelmed here. Let's just start small in and allow the snowball to grow. And I think that by starting with prompts is really helpful. And then the hope would be that and especially with the reflect, validated and explore tool, that they can then dig a little bit deeper and they can, you know, get further beyond the prompt, something that is more applicable to them into their sex life. But that is, you know, male clients that I work with, as you were saying, with, with that anxiety often they will I've heard them say that they don't want to talk about it because if they talk about it, that means that they don't know how to perform, they don't know how to like. They should just know how to please their partner without having to ask. And so there's there's like embarrassment and shame in that. What are your thoughts around that?

 

Cam Fraser:
Yeah, I typically would try and reframe this for guys. So a little story. I don't know if this story is true, but I'll share the story about supposedly it's about Frank Sinatra. So Frank Sinatra, according to this story or this legend, even late into his career when he was a veteran performer and doing all these amazing shows, would steal apparently before getting on stage, like be dry heaving and even vomiting out of like performance anxiety, of getting up on stage and performing in front of people. And when he was asked like, Hey, you're amazing performing, doing this for so long, why do you keep doing this? I thought you wouldn't have these nerves or this anxiety about performing. And he said, I actually don't mind it because it shows that I still care about putting on a good show for my audience. And so I use that little fable, let's say, to kind of like reframe for the guys that I work with. That performance anxiety isn't inherently a bad thing. It makes you care about your partner. It means that you want to have a good sexual experience. Things that the desire is there to actually have this beautiful, pleasurable connection. It's just the way that it's been kind of like manifesting for you is is what's tripping you up there. So like there's nothing wrong with wanting to have a good, pleasurable, mutually satisfying sexual encounter with the person you're having sex with. Let's just find ways to actually make that happen and give you like that positive momentum, that beautiful snowballing effect where you're able to lean into the pleasure and not the performance side of things. And that comes through everything we've kind of talked about. So that's the first thing that I do is like reframe that, like performance things like it doesn't mean that your anything's wrong with you or that you're bad for, for not knowing what to do. It means that there's a, there's a, there's a part of me that wants to like, have a really beautiful time. So let's, let's upskill, let's educate, let's find a way that you can make that happen regardless of what it looks like. And, and so, yeah, one of the pain in my life, I suppose, is like getting guys to open up to me about their like just that implicit acknowledgment. If they come in, ask me a question. There is underlying that question an acknowledgment that they don't know everything. Right. And so my whole approach is to try and help alleviate some of that that barrier to entry for a lot of guys and and non-judgmental kind of space holding is a big part of that as well. Like there's nothing wrong with if you don't know like I'll often publicly talk about the shitty sex education that we got now I got hardly any. And so a lot of guys also got hardly any. And so this expectation to know everything and then actually have no education about it is like, you know, the, the paradox of that is something to really highlight that helps guys go, Oh yeah, you're right. I don't no one ever told me this. So like, why do I have to know? And you know, also when I speak to couples, I talk to to talk to women, I suppose, and be like, Hey, you, are you creating a scenario where he is expected to know everything, right? Are you even communicating with him about the things that he's doing right and things that he's doing wrong? And, you know, if you want some progress to be made within that, like sexual intimacy, then there has to be some openness there. Like neither of you are minorities. So being able to like, communicate a little bit more is really, really important. And so, you know, it's like that the initial things that I'll do to kind of make that barrier to entry not as high, right? There's not such a wall I have to jump over. It's kind of a bit more of a steppingstone that they can they can take.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, Yeah. For their partner to be aware of their approach to communication, their, their delivery of that can also. So you know for all genders that goes a long way because there are ways that we might communicate where it is coming across as criticism. Criticism even if that's not how we intended. And I went to one of those sex trainings as couple like sex therapy trainings that I have done, could not get that out. She talks a lot about talking about directing by what you do like versus what you don't. So instead of I don't like it when you go right talk about I like it when you go left. And I think that that is just such an incredible tool that when we can even reframe our feedback and reframe our communication, that we're focusing on the strengths and the things that we do, like the things that we do enjoy, naturally, your partner is going to do more of that. Like you don't even have to say, you know, necessarily stop doing X, Y, and Z. A lot of times it's I really like Abby and see your partner again because they care. And that's where this anxiety is coming from. They're going to be all over Abby and see if they know that that's what you like. So the communication is so important, but not just communicating, but also how you're communicating makes a big difference when it comes to anxiety.

 

Cam Fraser:
Totally. I like to say keep it pleasure oriented and positively framed. So, you know, if you even if you want to have a conversation with your partner about sexual intimacy, like the pre framing of that conversation could be something to be effective. Like, Hey, I really enjoy having sex with you and I want to have more sex and I want to sex to be better. I want to explore more pleasure with you. I'd love to have a chat with you about that rather than being like, We need to have a talk. There's something wrong with our sex life, right? Yes. This is going to be received very differently if you bring that to to your partner. So I percent agree with that whole idea of focusing on what is that you that you do want And like, of course, if your partner isn't responding to that and isn't doing those things, then there's another issue right there, something else to talk about that. And also I want to throw in the caveat of like if something is hurting you and your partner is doing that, please speak up. They say, stop doing that absolute no.

 

Dr. Liz:
And that is a great point. And I've had plenty of couples where somebody might be insisting on, you know, something that other person has said a boundary around. And that's absolutely not what I mean. I am certainly talking about more when it's pleasure based and things you both have agreed to. But great point and thank you for bringing that up when you are moving it from conversation to the bedroom. And I guess let me give you some context for this. So when I'm helping a couple either to revive intimacy or to improve intimacy, whatever, that looks like, our help with the performance anxiety, we start with the conversations and really focus on let's get comfortable talking about it, let's just get it out, what we like, what we want. But then I do have some different exercises, I guess, that they start doing in bed or start doing leading into the sexual intimacy to help to alleviate it. So again, same idea, the snowball effect. We're going to start small and grow on that. What is your approach to that when it comes to like, okay, we we know we want improvements here, We've talked about it, We know what you both want. Now what.

 

Cam Fraser:
Mhm. Yeah. I typically take a approach that centers the penis just because of the nature of the work that I do, understanding my clients have a penis. So the sex is going to involve that. So I'll talk about this idea of fairly centrism which is like sex revolving around the penis does or doesn't do. And so what invitation I'll give them is to maybe take genital stimulation or even penetration off the table for a little bit. And temporarily. And if that's off the table, what else is on the table? Right. It's the kind of implicit question within that. And so that leads to a conversation or some brainstorming around like, all right, well, let's think about some other types of touch. Maybe it's a sexy massage, maybe it's using some toys, maybe it's using your your fingers or your tongue or your toes or whatever on the part of your body you and your partner are interested in. And within that, there's like some little activities and some games that we can we can kind of like inject into that scenario. And so like, you know, these entering the penis is one. Another thing that I'll often talk about in those like more sexually explicit containers is like this practice for pleasure mapping. And so for those who aren't familiar, it's like this idea, as the name suggests, that just like mapping pleasure across your body, starting at the tip of your toes and working your way up to the crown of your head and just collecting information, collecting data about your partner's body and what it is that they enjoy and what it is that they don't particularly enjoy. And what I frame it is like an experiment or is something that is just information gathering that takes a little bit of the ego out of it, a little bit of personal story out of it. So there's not a lot of anxiety around it For the couples that I work with where that's an activity I've given them and it's really helpful for learning. My partner really likes it when I squeeze their thighs like that or my partner really likes it when I trace my fingers across their chest or my partner really likes. Or conversely, my partner doesn't like it when I scratch their shoulders, so my partner doesn't like it when I'm squeezing their hips. Quite family, you know, there's so many things that you can glean about your partner's experience of pleasure that this practice gives you. And then you stop, right? Take turns and you allow your partner to touch you in a bunch of novel ways, starting from the toes and working your way up to the to the head and feet, that information back to them. So this is like a really beautiful learning experience that that couples can have. And because there's no expectation that this person lead to sex and it's not foreplay and which comes before penetration, it's an activity that we're doing to just learn about one another and to have that curiosity and that playfulness and that inquisitiveness about our partners bodies and how we can take it on board for when we do have sex. What do we know about our partner? We know that I really enjoy that type of touch. Maybe I can incorporate a little bit of that when we're being sexual. My partner doesn't like that particular soft touch. I'll make sure not to do that when I'm with them, and vice versa. So again, I love the idea of bringing it to activities and games and things that are going to inject some playfulness, inject some, some lightheartedness, and because I think that's helpful for alleviating stories, narratives, taking the ego out of it and minimizing the amount of anxiety that I feel.

 

Dr. Liz:
Agreed and the taking the sex just off the table completely is also my approach for often a while that I and I think part of that is that it creates like we want the forbidden fruit, right? So it does create also some tension building for them and some playfulness even in that that if if we're being told we can't do this, then it just creates a different mindset around it. But I also think that it takes away a lot of the anxiety when, as you're saying, there's not the expectation is going to end in sex. Like it's not we're not we're not even taking it there. And so we don't have to be as worried about that. What you're talking about, the pleasure mapping is a brilliant idea because then that becomes about what their it becomes about their partner and not about them. So it becomes like this is just what your partner likes, regardless of who they're with, regardless of you know, any of that context. It's what they personally like. And I think that a lot. I mean, of course, we take into our present day sexual relationships we've learned in our past ones. And so what our partners in previous relationships have taught is that they like or they enjoy or that is good to them. We naturally take with us because we just take it as like, Well, that must be what a partner wants. But when you do something like the pleasure mapping, now it's less about, okay, am I good enough at this thing that people want? It's now let me show up in the way that you need.

 

Cam Fraser:
Yeah. Yeah. And I think that stokes conversation as well, right? Like it's there. It's a two way street, right. And being able to have those conversations, then makes the sexual practices a little bit easier. And then when you start to do the sexual practices and you start to learn more, that feeds into a conversation about the sexual practices, which makes the conversations easier and it becomes this beautiful kind of symbiotic relationship. And one thing I want to add to that I suppose, is like if you're wanting to have those conversations about doing those activities, one of the things that can be scary is bringing that to the table, right? Saying, okay, I want to do this thing with you again. That's a very vulnerable thing to to say to a partner the fear of rejection and all the things we identified before. So something that can be useful is listening to a podcast together or reading a book together or watching TV show together. There's some great shows on Netflix now that centering, you know, sexual experiences and have a sex and pleasure positive kind of lens apply to them. So being able to again alleviate that burden of initiation by going and outsourcing that to a game or a podcast or a social media influencer, again, be mindful of the narratives that they might be perpetuating, can be helpful for starting conversations and inspiring some creativity in a conversational and also sexual sense. So I think that's something I wanted to add in there as well as like there's so many ways that you can start to inject a little bit of that sexual element into the relationship in a way that maybe doesn't feel as scary to do. If it was just you saying, Hey, we need to have this conversation about this thing.

 

Dr. Liz:
Right? Which is so funny because that's exactly what I had told Melissa, our producer, before we started. I said, I hope this can be a conversation that somebody would want to then send to their partner to really initiate that that kind of conversation. And I agree it can take some of that pressure off when it's like, Hey, I listened to this, I found it interesting. Would you listen? And then can we chat about it is way different than just out of nowhere bringing up like, yo, we need to improve our sex life because it's not what I want it to be. AS Yeah, sounds way different. And I don't know if it's on Hulu or on Netflix, but Goop, the Gwyneth Paltrow and Goop one. Did you watch that?

 

Cam Fraser:
Yeah, I'm familiar with it. Yeah.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah. I think that was a really good one. I recommended that to a few of my clients. I thought that was good to open up conversation because they were really working with a lot of couples who are struggling with their intimacy.

 

Cam Fraser:
Totally. And I think engaging with material like that and like this podcasts and other resources, is that you realize you're not alone. I think that's part of where a lot of performance anxiety comes from, as well as this sense of like, I'm broken because I'm not following this particular expectation or I can't live up to that expectation and kind of realizing those expectations are unrealistic in the first place. And there's so many other people that are having a very similar experience, that sense of solidarity and like, Oh, this is a normal thing. And like we don't get the education that we need and we are approaching sex from a kind of skewed perspective can be really helpful to know that there are other people out there feeling very similar. So I think just by virtue of engaging with content like that and the same thing goes for like social media, something that I'll recommend to some of my clients is starting to follow sex positive pleasure, positive people on social media who are maybe telling it a better story or a more appropriate story for them when it comes to. But the way that they shop as a man or the way that they shop with lovers and so I think curating social media feeds as well can be a helpful strategy for helping you write new narratives, right, and adhere to new scripts and even just be exposed to alternative ways of thinking about sex and pleasure.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, Yeah. And finding those social media accounts that, that normalize and that bring the humanness to it instead of just all the shoulds and the expectations, but rather, you know, this, this is the human experience. And I think a lot of people get surprised with how insecure and anxious so many of us are when it comes to a lot of things, but especially our sex lives. So the normalizing is so important. You do such a good job of that on your social media and I really appreciate all of the videos that you do that are so informative and so normalizing and just like, yeah, I guess informative is the best way to put it. It's stuff that the everyday person does not know and so is probably in their head about or embarrassed to ask and embarrassed to seek out. And I really appreciate how you are providing that to the social media community. So thank you for that.

 

Cam Fraser:
That's really lovely. I sometimes forget that people are watching all my stuff, so I appreciate the feedback. It's really lovely. Thank you.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yes, absolutely. So tell us, Cam, where can people find you what our as we're talking about your social media account, your website, socials, what is all of that info?

 

Cam Fraser:
Yeah. So I'm on all social media platforms at the camp. Fraser And that's free SDR for all my American listeners. Sometimes they get my name wrong and that's fine. And my website is Kim Dash Fraser dot com And yeah, I try to be as educational and as informative as possible on their site. I guarantee that if you jump on that, you learn something new.

 

Dr. Liz:
And I would be the American that got your last name wrong, so I apologize. That's good to know. I will be aware of that. Well, thank you again for coming to hang out. This was very informative, very helpful. And I appreciate your time.

 

Cam Fraser:
Now. No worries at all. I've been yeah, I've been having a really good time chatting to you, so I'm grateful to be here.

 

Dr. Liz:
Thank you. Thanks again, Cam. It been a pleasure. And thank you all for hanging out on relatable Relationships unfiltered. Make sure to subscribe to our YouTube channel, Sign up for my newsletter and find me on Instagram at Dr. Elizabeth Fedrick. This is relatable relationships, unfiltered.