Relatable podcast 

Dr. Liz:
Hey, welcome to Relatable Relationships unfiltered. Sex is such a controversial topic with so many different opinions and beliefs out there, it can be really easy to feel shame about sex or really anything related to it. Joining me today is Jeremiah Gibson and Julia Postema, host, co-hosts of a very popular sex podcast. And today we're chatting all about ways to remove some of that shame from your sexual experiences. This is relatable relationships, unfiltered. Hi, guys. First of all, did I get your last name right, Julia?

 

Jeremiah & Julia:
Absolutely. Yes.

 

Dr. Liz:
Okay, good. Good to know. Tell us a little bit about your podcast. So I like we've had a lot of guests. We've had a lot of great topics. This one hits a lot closer to home than many that I have explored before. So I am I don't know if excited is the right word, to be honest, but I.

 

Jeremiah & Julia:
Love to. Yeah, that's fair.

 

Dr. Liz:
Tell us about your podcast, though.

 

Jeremiah & Julia:
Sure. Our podcast is Sexvangelicals the podcast that talks about the sex education that the church didn't want you to have. And the language that we use is super intentional. This isn't the sex education that the church missed, that the church forgot about. This is the sex education that the church intentionally excluded from schools, religious systems and homes, which then deeply and often negatively impact all of us as human beings and sadly set us up to not have flourishing or thriving sexual relationships with ourselves or with other people.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, no, that's a great point. The with ourselves is most certainly a really big point in that with the very legalistic upbringings, with the very legalistic religions of a lot of shame, because my belief is there's a lot of power and shame. So when we can make somebody feel a certain type of way, that gives a lot of control.

 

Jeremiah & Julia:
Right. It does. It does. And the control is a huge part of the way that the church negatively impacts folks relationally and sexually.

 

Dr. Liz:
Absolutely. So you I and I asked before we started recording, but both of you, this is personal experience for each of you that you were raised in. What, uber religious upbringings. Is that fair to say? Well, how would we say it? How would we describe it?

 

Jeremiah & Julia:
Uber religious. Sounds like a great, great descriptor.

 

Dr. Liz:
Can you tell us a little bit about that? I would like to hear from each of you what that look like, and then I'll be happy to share as well.

 

Jeremiah & Julia:
Yeah, I'll start. So my church experience was a little bit different. The church that I grew up in had a lot to say about gender, actually. There were a lot of messages around what men should do, what women should do. I tell the story that I'm seven years old in my church Bible study. I am the only boy. I'm the only penis owner in this. And a roomful of women who are in their thirties, forties, fifties and a bunch of girls. And we get to the devotional and the. The women in the group say, Jeremiah, you're the boy. You're the man. You have to, like, lead the prayers. You have to leave the songs. And being a good people pleasing seven year old. I did that that that's how I learned early on that men play leadership roles and women also take back seats, that women are also expected to be passive. For me, it's for me specific. My church group actually was was quite silent about sexuality. Julia, you can talk a little bit more about the explicit elements of purity culture and the negativity around sexuality, but that silence around sexuality also has its own negative consequences because you're still not taught. You're not taught what to do. Sex is still you still learn that sex is this thing. Well, why is it that we're not talking about sex? Oh, well, we're not. We must be not talking about sex, because sex is something to be avoided.

 

Dr. Liz:
So because sex is bad, sex is shameful. And we don't talk about things that are bad and shameful.

 

Jeremiah & Julia:
That's the right right. That's the implicit message that that comes in a system in which you don't talk about sex, which is different, Julia, from a system in which you do talk about sex and you explicitly learn that sex is bad. Yes.

 

Dr. Liz:
What was that like?

 

Jeremiah & Julia:
I grew up in a very tiny, insular community. The structures that embedded my life were my Baptist church and my Christian, my classical Christian school, which is a whole other conversation. And then my Christian. Yeah, and then my Christian camp. I graduated with three people, so I had very little exposure to the secular world, the secular world to me were called nonbelievers, non-Christians. So my community used very us them language. And one of the primary distinctions was that my community was quite vocal about sex and about the purity, particularly the purity of women. So, of course, abstinence only education was foundational to my life. But when we talk about purity culture that encompasses so much more, that creates a culture of anxiety, fear and shame in which a person's worth is defined by how well they perform their God given gender roles, determined by their genitalia, not necessarily by their actual gender. That anecdote that I typically share is that at eight years old, my friends and I had this conversation about whether spaghetti straps were sinful, and that was a serious conversation. So even as really, really small girls, we knew that our bodies were dangerous. Our sexuality was dangerous, and that we were the gatekeepers of not only our own purity, but the purity of the adult men in our lives, even as small, small, prepubescent little girls.

 

Dr. Liz:
Right. Right. That it is our job to not lead them to temptation. Correct. We don't rise them astray. I absolutely.

 

Jeremiah & Julia:
Don't want to be the stumbling block.

 

Dr. Liz:
Not know. Yeah, that would just heaven forbid. And that I mean, I can relate to both of what you're describing. That was very much my experience. A lot of that the purity culture. And I'm wondering from even a generation standpoint, were your parents like big into that political movement that I don't know what year you guys were born, but I mean, I was born in the eighties and my parents were very, you know, born agains as as they're called. Yes. Very evangelical. And so that it's so fascinating to me when I then research that the political and not that we're going to get into politics or where anyone stands on it, that's not my point. But what was going on with it at that time and the purpose of it so that the what they were using it for and sending these messages about sexuality and about Christianity, that then our parents were just sheeple and were completely absorbing and completely like, Oh, yep, this is how we have to raise our children. And so the legalistic nature of it, the punitive nature of it, yeah, really has fucked a lot of us up and a lot.

 

Jeremiah & Julia:
Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. And I'm and I'm glad that you're making this about generational things. And so I, we were both born in the eighties as well. So my, my family is fourth, fifth, sixth generation Christian. So so they wouldn't consider themselves born again, maybe in the way that your parents would and you know but but they were so very involved in in Republican politics we were pro Reagan, pro Bush, my family. So one of the things that I am one of these is important about our generation, though, is is about Title five and Title five, abstinence only until marriage, which is something that that passes, which is legislation that passes on a nationwide level during the Clinton administration in 1996 that infiltrates abstinence only education into the public school system. So I actually learned about abstinence only education, not so much from my church, which was silent about sexuality, but from my school system, which received funding like like many states, like many school districts did during that time that promoted variations of abstinence only education. Sex is only to be had in a marital context. Sex outside of marriage has significant risks, kind of the high fear kind of building on the AIDS fear that that Reagan created in the eighties. So, so, so that was the way that I that that I experience it maybe Julia, in a different way than than you and your family experienced it.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah. Yeah. Julia, do you have anything to add to that? And are you able to relate to that, the born again aspect of all parents?

 

Jeremiah & Julia:
Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Do you know what Born Again means? I have heard a little. Bit about Julia. So, so, so. So there are. So many of the people in my religious community are third, fourth, fifth generation. So so my denomination is. But it isn't about generation. Oh, no, I know. Okay. No, I know, I know. Yeah.

 

Dr. Liz:
So that's your point, though. That's my point. Is that.

Jeremiah & Julia:
Well, that's right. Most people in the Church of Christ in denomination I was in like have been there three or four or five generations and which is different from kind of the born again idea where you fall out of actually. Tell me a little bit more. About I think you might be confused about what born again, man.

 

Dr. Liz:
Well, I, I guess I'm leaning kind of to what Jeremiah is describing. That's what. What are you thinking? What's the context you're putting around it?

 

Jeremiah & Julia:
Sure. So what I learned about being a born again Christian is that it wasn't about how long your family was embedded in a Christian community. From my Baptist background, being born again was something that every Christian needed to do. So if you weren't born again, then you aren't a Christian God. So being born again is repenting of your sinful nature and the desires of the flesh, which of course are anything sexual. And then you ask Jesus into your heart, and then Jesus saves you, and you go to heaven when you die.

 

Dr. Liz:
And I'm I definitely I can see it from both. So exactly what Jeremiah was describing would be how my parents presented, though, in terms of, you know, whatever rough upbringings and their rough pasts and all the shameful decisions they made. And I'm not saying I'm not actually saying that, but that that was the message that was sent, you know, like all of these things in the past and now we're born again. And now we're going to make sure that our children.

 

Jeremiah & Julia:
Right, are.

 

Dr. Liz:
Raised in the way of the law and all of those things. And yeah, that and so that was the born again. But then, as you're saying, Julia, that, you know, there are so many conversations around helping people to be born again and bringing people in even. Right, right. We would pass out the dead around instead of candy like you did not participate in Halloween unless you were doing it to give your testimony and all of those things.

 

Jeremiah & Julia:
Right. And it's actually interesting and strangely relevant that we're talking about the born again piece, which from the Baptist background was about going to heaven instead of going to hell. And so I will often describe my growing up experience as revolving around hell and sex because going to heaven and asking Jesus into your heart and being saved was directly tied to your purity. Right. So sex, heaven and hell are all intrinsically just having a fun threesome together.

 

Dr. Liz:
They they truly, truly are. Yeah, I yeah. And the school experience you're describing, all of it. How did you guys start to transition out of purity culture? Like, did you guys meet each other while you were both still? Well, I guess let's hear each of your stories in terms of how you evolved out of it.

 

Jeremiah & Julia:
Yeah. My evolution out was somewhat long. I went to college when I was 17, and even though I went to a Christian college, my background is in social work. Jeremiah and I are actually both licensed therapists, which we didn't mention earlier but is relevant to the work that we do because we have both personal and clinical experience. That being said, when I started my undergraduate program in Social work, I started on learning so many of the messages that I had learned growing up about bodies and race and sexual orientation. Not so much sexuality, but I was unlearning some messages around sexual orientation. But it was really my training postgraduate as a sex therapist that was actually my ticket out of fundamentalism. I had started unlearning some of the core parts of fundamentalism, but the sexuality training was what really actually pushed me completely out.

 

Dr. Liz:
And we're not like missing the irony of you deciding to become a sex therapist and not right.

 

Jeremiah & Julia:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And thinking about generational concerns and family concerns, that has been a massive disruption in my family system because that represents a falling away or a falling apart from from the truth, from eternal, eternal salvation.

 

Dr. Liz:
Were you still pretty involved in the church when you decided to become a sex therapist? Like, was that.

 

Jeremiah & Julia:
I was not. I had been. I was. But I had been living out of church territory for several years. But I. I still would have to some degree resonated with the progressive Christian perspective. And I still can appreciate some of that, but I don't participate in any formal religious structures.

 

Dr. Liz:
Sure. Which is the same way. And I'm yeah, I openly say that as well. I believe in God. I believe absolutely in a higher power. I believe in those things. I do not believe in the power and shame that is used to abuse and exploit its people based on their deepest fears. So that is what I do not believe.

 

Jeremiah & Julia:
Yeah.

 

Dr. Liz:
I might. What was your experience as you navigate it out?

 

Jeremiah & Julia:
Yeah. So so my SO therapist second career for me in my twenties. I was a music minister at several different churches. I studied to be a therapist. My, my background is in systems theory. So, so learning about systems, theories and system series is in summary, the idea that everything is connected together and that there are that there are systems that that develop around around power, that develop around around hierarchies, that that that, that make decisions about everything from families to larger things like governments and their consistent rules to to how systems work. So, so learning about systems theory was and it might make cognitive move out of out of the church and realizing that yeah realizing that there was a disconnect between those two the the church paradigm and the systems world paradigm. I tried to have it both ways. So I moved to Massachusetts, I got hired by another church and tried to and then stumbled into sex therapy through my office and for a bit tried to both be a sex therapist and a music minister. Church wasn't too thrilled with that. I ended up getting fired. I end up getting kicked out about four or five years ago and and I haven't turned back individually to to participating in a church, although I'm very, very fascinated in the in the sociology of churches and why people choose religions and how religious structures communicate particular values about everything from bodies. Giulio and I study to more existential things to create order. And in a worst case scenario, we talk about purity culture to create control.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah. Yes. So that's interesting. That must have been quite the dissonance you had going on to be that in the church. And then what is your angle with sex therapy? And I and I'm asking this because from my personal so I was still somewhat, I guess in yeah, I guess I would say in the church as I started my education in psychology and and so of course it's like found it in while we're going I'm going to be a Christian counselor and I'm going to help people to see it from this perspective. And I'm going to, you know, influence him in all these positive ways. And then I guess probably as you guys are each describing, the more education I received, the more I realized, yeah, I was not going to be a part of abusing anyone in that way. Right. But for your experience, did that create dissonance for you as you are doing sex therapy, or were you basing it in like a Christian model? I guess?

 

Jeremiah & Julia:
I don't know that I was basing it in a Christian model per se. I was fortunate. I went to graduate school at a Christian university. So, Julia, you and I flip flopped because you did your graduate school to public school. So I did my graduate school to Christian University, but one that was able to distinguish between Christian counseling, biblical counseling and marriage and family therapy, and being able to say what you were doing as a marriage, your family therapist. This is not Christian counseling, this is not biblical counseling. So so I was fortunate to have been spared kind of that that that level of enmeshment between the two, the two concepts. I got into sex therapy through an interest in couples therapy and the the immersion into sex therapy was more of like a social justice perspective and realizing, oh, this church that I'm involved in, they claim to be involved in social justice, maybe I can kind of help inject and provide some like a theoretical background for how to do social justice work better. The church wasn't interested in that. Gotcha.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yes, I would imagine not. How did the two of you find each other and like, how how did you make this kind of your niche in what you're doing?

 

Jeremiah & Julia:
Yeah. We were both practicing sex therapist at the time when we met in Boston. We met through a mutual colleague and we were both moving out of other relationships, other relationships that were more invested in the religious community from a formal structural perspective. And I knew that I no longer wanted and I no longer could participate in religious structures any longer, at least the ones that my partner was invested in at the time. My ex-partner. So we very quickly bonded over not just our work within sexual health, but the background of becoming a sex therapist following such repressive, restrictive, growing up experiences and sadly knowing that our experiences were not particularly unique. Our niche as therapists in our nation with our podcast or folks who had some version of what we experienced and we want to provide what we didn't have that could have saved so much pain, so much heartache. I was a client in sex therapy before I became a sex therapist, so I also know what it's like on the other side of the couch or the desk or the computer these days.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah. Yeah. Jeremiah, do you have anything to add to that?

 

Jeremiah & Julia:
Yeah. I'm just thinking about Julia, how you and I met at the end and how both of us were in relationships prior to this. And so. So I met my ex when I was 18. We started dating. We were 19. That that relationship was very entrenched in the church. And one of the things, Julia, that we find in working with couples is that a lot of times couples met in religious contexts and then they start, it's typically either conversations about sex or race that begin to be kind of the metaphor that you use. Julia is is the first Jenga block that begins to create a more unsteady Jenga tower. And then the more and more Jenga blocks they get taken out. My ex and I did that at at completely different paces, and we didn't have a way to talk about that. And I don't think either of us were particularly aware that that we were doing that in the ways that we were. And there were times that we did talk about it. There was so much shame and anxiety that the conversation folded pretty quick. So there are a lot of couples for for whom that happens. And we we find that moving out of a religious space, which I would argue inherently happens any time we talk with couples about sexuality, especially from a comprehensive sex education perspective. Yeah, folks have some pretty hard decisions to make that that that creates a bit of a shock to the relationship. And there are a lot of couples that we know who have made similar decisions to me and Julia and realize, oh, hey, the relationship that we were formerly in, like those are no longer sustainable. You know, that the the when we move ourselves out of the religious context, realize that was actually the thing holding us together right. And there isn't really anything holding us together anymore and make the decision to to go our separate ways. There's a lot of pain in that. And Julia and I have watched as that individually and and also with other couples professionally as well. There's also couples who do a lot of really hard work to to in the deconstruction process, deconstruction kind of invoke term to describe this, to talk about the ways that they're becoming different people and to maintain a sense of relationship, to maintain a sense of exploration, curiosity in the midst of that, to create, to create something new. What's happened for you and I is like, I got to be the person that I wish that I could have been. And I didn't know that I had permission to be by moving into a relationship with you and getting to practice that and like being highly motivated to continue practicing that. Because I know what it's like to not practice that to, to be a less authentic version of myself, one that that's more in line with, like kissing the asses off religious institutions. That didn't work well for me.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah.

 

Jeremiah & Julia:
I'm not going back there. I think that you have a similar experience of that too. So. Yeah.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, I think the the part to me that is so heartbreaking is the model that I've developed and I use in both individual and couples work that I do is what I call relationship reprograming. And the premise is that with relationship programing, we all of these messages that are sent to us starting pre verbally by our primary caregivers, sets the stage for really what we come to think is normal, acceptable, shameful, whatever it is. But what we come to expect out of relationships and when individuals are raised with a lot of this very legalistic and the purity culture, but the just these shame messages, they don't realize that they carry them into adulthood. And so for a lot of us and I don't I don't know what your guys's experiences, but I'll catch myself still like even with all of the education and the experience and the ability to intellectualize A, B and C is not shameful. There's nothing wrong with A, B and C, but then there's the the programed piece of me that has a really hard time. And so it does create a dissonance even for me with some topics present day, because that that programing is so deeply ingrained. And that is the part that really breaks my heart for a lot of people, a lot of clients who I sit with who are our age or, you know, forties, fifties and, and well on that are not enjoying sexuality. Yeah, in the beautiful, magnificent, passionate way that it can be enjoyed because they are so tied into their programing still they are they don't believe that they it's okay just to let loose to enjoy pleasure it's all of those things. So I for when I'm working with clients, that's something that I try to stay aware of is like what was their programing? And that's exactly what we're talking about. And how is it still holding them back present day Yeah, we think we are so evolved, right, but it still pops up.

 

Jeremiah & Julia:
Yeah. My first session in sex therapy with my ex-husband, my therapist, who was a certified sex therapist, asked about our growing up experiences because that's a great way to begin therapy. And I remember saying, Well, I grew up in this really tiny culty fundamentalist community, but I don't think it impacted my sexuality all that much. And of course it did that was actually the most important factor that was negatively impacting my ability to enjoy sexuality the way that the way that I hope we all can.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah.

 

Jeremiah & Julia:
And when you were talking about that, Liz, I was also thinking about not just how the church encourages people to function as individuals and to think of ourselves as individuals, but also how the church encourages relationships to function as well. Churches encourage enmeshment in relationships. Yeah, the idea that the two shall become one and but. But the two shall become one without any sort of like framework for dialog about how to make decisions and how to make decisions based off of one's individual preferences. So we have to rely then on gender roles in the performance of gender roles, which creates all sorts of of unspoken and later spoken types of conflict. You know. But, but that's also part of the undo. Are the relationship undoing? Are the relationship Reprograming that that we've noticed as well is how do you recontextualize what it means to be in a relationship or a relationship in which you two are two separate people?

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah.

 

Jeremiah & Julia:
With differences that are worth being celebrated, differences that you can learn from, from each other, but also differences that allow you to create some distance from each other because that's ultimately where sexuality lives. Sexuality match. You live in the closeness that people create. Sexuality lives in the ability to manage the distance between two people and to use that distance to to fuel erotic energy, to move back and forth.

 

Dr. Liz:
Can you elaborate on what you mean by that?

 

Jeremiah & Julia:
Yeah. So so one of the things that so Julia and I have have some similar interests around around hiking, things like that. But Julia and I also have some, some difference differences and things that we really enjoy. So, so so I play music, I play guitar. And in the times that I do that. Julia, I know that you have communicated how, how meaningful that is for you to like, watch me celebrate or to to watch me do something that's really meaningful and life giving to me something that's very different from something that gives life to you and and and you see me in a new kind of attractive kind of sense, and I experience something actually quite similar. Julia is quite the exercise aficionado running a fishing, not unlike when you when you push your body to do things that I'm like, why the hell would you do that? How did you go to that exercise class? I'm also like, wicked attracted to you in those moments. I'm attracted to the ways that you explore those things that that baffle me. But. But that also like drawing me closer to you. So. So, so in those different activities and being able to celebrate those differences, like we are able to not just conceptually like do that, but but also when we come back into the same space, we're able to connect with each other in a different in a more, I would say more intimate, more more sexual way.

 

Dr. Liz:
So that interdependency as you're describing of, you know, you are you, I am me. We have a we but we're you know it's not the to become one right that because of though that uniqueness the differences that is what draws us to each other so more you're saying though those things lead to more of the sexuality like the chemistry and sexuality. But are but do you see this applied also directly within sexuality? So when you're talking about these differences, how do you see that show up that that might lead to? Because I could I could hear a lot of people like, okay, well, and I do hear a lot of people say, yes, a lot of clients, you know, like, well, he wants to do X, Y, and Z and fuck that. Like, that's never going to happen. And and or while he doesn't want to, you know, try the things I want to try. So sometimes the difference is the lack of and I know you're not talking about a lack of compatibility here. I just want to really provide clarification as people are listening that it's more about the novelty, the distinction, the the newness of it that leads to the chemistry. How does how does that become applicable? So then sexually?

 

Jeremiah & Julia:
Yeah, we actually just had a podcast episode about this because you're talking and the example that I was giving was just around generic differences, right? The the example that you're talking about though is more around like desire discrepancy is the terminology we use in this world and, and ways to help couples to to figure out how to navigate that and recognizing that, you know, first of all, I would be surprised and a little bit intimidated to find someone who has the exact same desires and also the exact same process as I do for her for accessing sexuality. Differences are one inevitable and to create, create, create interest, they create some excitement in the relationship. So when we talk about desire discrepancy, like one of the things that we're talking about is is not just desired from the perspective of quantity. So. So who wants sex more than the other person? But thinking about difference in all sorts of things, from different, different physical sensations that that people might like during sexual activity, different contexts that might help us set someone up for a sexual experience, different accelerators, different brakes to use. And they ask, is language, different relationships with sensations, different relationships with pace. Some people have quicker on ramps, some people have longer ramps and and sure not put labels to those too, to not moralize those, but just to acknowledge those as different and to help. So so part of the work they're in is helping to to understand that and to celebrate those differences.

 

Dr. Liz:
And I absolutely agree. And I think that even when people aren't navigating maybe a lot of shame or similar upbringings to what we're describing, this can already exist just from societal views norms. I mean, because everybody has their beliefs around sex, no matter what their upbringing, even if they were raised in ultra liberal or ultra like, you know, passive or permissive, like whatever the upbringing, everyone's going to end up with the belief system and then you end up with a partner with likely a different belief system, or as you're even describing, if if it is true partners who have been in the church together for a long time and now they're trying to figure out what that means, often one person is kind of more ahead of the curve than the other. And this change, a lot of discrepancy and so I am curious when people are coming to you, when a couple's coming to you with very two very distinct desires and what they want to do, what they want to try when it comes to kink, when it comes to outfits and role playing and toys and what do you do, where do you start? How do you start to bridge that gap?

 

Jeremiah & Julia:
I think the first part is being able to explore what desire looks like on an individual level. So if a person is interested in exploring kink, well, what does that mean for that person and how would they ideally like to explore that? To what extent does that fit within the relationship and to what extent does that not fit within the relationship? Because just as no partner can meet all of our emotional needs or social needs or any other kind of need, we can't meet all of each other's sexual needs either. So perhaps a person decides that they are going to explore certain fantasies on their own, and that might be in the context of an open style relationship, but it could be in the context of their own fantasy life, their own sexual practices that may or may not involve other people and as much as we're talking about differences, what I often find is that desire discrepancy isn't as big as couples initially think. So sometimes when we're talking about kink, for example, we might get stuck in the actual action of it the spanking or the flogging or whatever else it is. And that could be really important for someone. But in our work, we try to move away from specific actions or behaviors sexually and to think about the values behind it. So what's meaningful about being spanked and how else could you access that in the relationship if your partner has a hard know around spanking or something else? So when we can move out of behaviors into values, we can usually find a little bit more commonality. And the church and religious structures really focus on behaviors. The church focuses on abstinence only, not often from a values perspective, but from a punitive, legalistic perspective. And so folks who we see in our practice often haven't considered the values around specific behaviors. And that can be a really important thing to unpack. That brings more connection that a couple might initially suspect. And I think it's also important to distinguish, Julia between values and morals. Sure, sure. You know that the values are about like what is of use your example of flogging, what might flogging help me access about myself that's more in a line of values. Whereas morals, what the church does is that it deems it bad, it deems it evil, it deems it sinful. And so part of the answer, part of your question, too, is as sex therapists, we have to help couples remove language of bad, remove language of sinful, remove language of evil, kind of out of the sexual vocabulary that we might use, being aware of disgust and and being apathetic towards that. But but also deconstructing some of the messages that might lead to discuss and helping to kind of push that out. The relationship, of course, knowing that there's also a difference between bad evil and I do want this and I don't want this. We're absolutely that do wants don't want. Yeah but if we begin to put a diagnostic bad evil kind of gross, that kind of language, we want to do it if we can. But the stop sign up on that.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah. And the boundaries are so important when we are navigating out of shame around sexuality, because as you described, there are not a lot of boundaries in the type of upbringing we're describing. And that's the enmeshment, right? We as children are not allowed boundaries and even the couple is not allowed boundaries. Everyone should have access to everything at any time and there's not space for that. And so there it's important as we're figuring out this shame piece is two fold. What you guys are describing is that, first of all, why are we labeling it the way that we are and digging in to understanding where does that come from? Also, what's the bigger meaning that that is here? What are some different perspectives that we can look at? Whatever the act is or whatever, whatever component of sexuality, what are various perspectives that we can consider? But then, you know, a big part of also removing that shame beyond beyond the perspectives and is how your partner is then like the messaging they're giving you, which I think can become difficult in these type of situations because as you guys are describing, if there is something as sinful or disgusting and that message is coming from your partner, that's really hard to change your own messaging around it.

 

Jeremiah & Julia:
Absolutely.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah. How do you guys help to really shift, like start to shift the shame messages? So when you're doing this work, what are even a couple, you know, with people listening and they're probably really relating to a lot of this. I would love to give a couple solid takeaways, but if your desire is to start to shift out of the shame around sexuality, what does that look like?

 

Jeremiah & Julia:
Well, from a from a communication standpoint, shame often gets communicated through criticism, either criticism of the other person or more dangerous. I could even say criticism towards self. And so one of the things that is helpful is, well, criticism is not helpful in in any sort of situation. So figuring out how to kind of pare off the to blaming comments, comments that begin with you are you do anything that begins with you typically speaking leads in the direction of criticism and you find in general from a relationship standpoint to find more positive ways to talk about it, to talk about each other, and then also to talk about yourselves. And so finding spaces for for appreciation, for admiration and ultimately kind of a deeper level is I tell folks that a criticism is a failed attempt to get a need met. So so understanding when you're criticizing someone, what is it need that you're actually trying to communicate about yourself? Right. And can we make it about your own need as opposed to your partner's behavior?

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, right. And being aware of the the critical things that might be said in bed that aren't right, a partner might suggest something like, Oh, that's weird. Why would you want to do that? Or Where did you even hear of that? Or the discussed is, we are going to shut somebody down. And so I think that being aware of how are you presenting, how are you staying safe for your partner when they are bringing something up, It does not mean you have to engage in it. It does not mean you have to agree to it, but also you can explore it and you can just be open to it in the sense of open to it in conversation, even if you're not open to it with your body.

 

Jeremiah & Julia:
Right? Absolutely. And shame fosters in secrecy, just like a petri dish. So in unlearning some of the shame, the first part is being able to to name it and to hopefully talk about it in context that are safe, whether that is with a supportive partner, with a friend, with a therapist, or in some other kind of supportive setting. So often we want the shame gone without unpacking it. And so after we identify what the shame is, we've got to do the work. Like you said. Where did that come from? Who was the first person who said that to me? How did that get reinforced? Reinforced? And then from there be able to consider what might I want differently for myself? I received this value around sexuality. What are some other stories that could be present and to think more about creating space for other stories, then trying to just get rid of the shame.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, agreed. And I, I think also asking yourself, what is the what is the purpose that the shame in and of itself is serving?

 

Jeremiah & Julia:
Yes, that's right.

 

Dr. Liz:
Because for a lot of us, that shame served as protection. Like I'm able to shame myself and keep myself in check. Then I don't have to deal with these consequences. And these consequences can be anything from a really scary parent to going to hell as you described. And so a lot of times we use that shame as a protective mechanism because we believe that it is keeping us safe from things that can harm us or the consequences of that where in fact that is all part of the fucked up narrative as well because, well, like that's not those choices around sexuality are not necessarily going to take you to hell. They are maybe just going to take you to a great orgasm which have.

 

Jeremiah & Julia:
Yeah. Amen.

Dr. Liz:
All right, you guys, where can people find more about you, where your podcast website, stuff like that.

 

Jeremiah & Julia:
Yeah. Sexvangelicals is on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you get your podcasts. We are also online W WW dot sexvangelicals.com We're on Instagram and threads at sexvangelicals and we also have a subset called relationship 1 to 1 that you can find at sexvangelicals that subset e-com.

 

Dr. Liz:
Great. Well, thank you guys so much for hanging out with me and for sharing your stories and listening to mine. And it's it's always nice to be able to find somebody who can just really, like normalizing connect on such a hard topic. Such a painful topic. Yeah. Yeah. So thank you.

 

Jeremiah & Julia:
Thank you so much. It's a delight.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, absolutely. Thanks again, Jeremiah and Julia, for helping us to take the shame out of sex. And thank you all for hanging out on relatable relationships unfiltered. Make sure to subscribe to our YouTube channel, sign up for my newsletter and find me on Instagram at Dr. Elizabeth Fedrick. This is relatable relationships, unfiltered.