Relatable podcast 

Dr. Liz:
Hey, welcome to Relatable Relationships. Unfiltered Self-sabotage is such a common experience in our relationships, often without us even realizing it's happening. And joining me today is Amy Fielder, certified trauma support specialist. We're chatting about the different types of self-sabotaging behaviors and how becoming aware of them can really help us in making some much needed changes. This is relatable relationships, unfiltered. Hey, Amy, Welcome.

 

Amy Fiedler:
Hey, Liz. How are you?

 

Dr. Liz:
I'm good. I appreciate you coming to hang out today and found you on Instagram. You have some great content, relationship based and really about helping people navigate through a lot of the hard shit in our relationships.

 

Amy Fiedler:
Yeah, I mean, same with you. You've got a lot of great stuff on there. I was watching your reels earlier today and I was laughing at some.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yes, Thank you. You got to keep it relatable. Yeah. People feel so alone. And often when a client goes to start a story or after they tell a story, you know, it's like, Oh my God, that was so stupid. I can't believe I, you know, I did that or I just told you that. And I'm like, We all do it all the that's what we would call stupid or silly behaviors. The silly things we fight over. So common.

 

Amy Fiedler:
So common. And I think it's important that we relate to the people that are following us online or working with us to some degree, because I think it makes them feel safer to open up.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, yeah. And I relate much beyond some degree. I, I relate all too well to so many of those, so many of those behaviors and the self-sabotaging behaviors that we're going to get into today. How do you describe self-sabotaging behaviors when you're talking to a client about that? How might you like gently bring that to someone's attention?

 

Amy Fiedler:
I mean, I think it depends on what the behavior is, right? Like when I'm talking to somebody about self-sabotage, let's say they're their chosen flavor of self-sabotage is unspoken expectations. Right. I'm going to point out to them that it's important to communicate. I'm not going to necessarily point out distinctly like, you know, you're doing this act of self-sabotage and go heavily into an explanation. I feel like it's better to point them in the direction they need to go, then kind of redirect them backwards and say, you're doing this wrong. Right. So give them the tool to move through it. But I think a lot of people don't realize they're doing these acts of self-sabotage because they're so normalized in their own way of being from their upbringing.

 

Dr. Liz:
Right. Yeah, they're they're what I would call their survival behaviors. So in our upbringing, you know what? We are faced with the experiences, either the bad things that happen or the good things that don't. And all we want as humans is to feel loved and connected and accepted and esteemed. And when we don't get those things, we had to figure out a way to survive that we had to figure out a way to either kind of manipulate to make this thing happen or avoid and come to acceptance that it's not going to. And unfortunately, it did lead to survival in childhood. But and that's not the unfortunate part. That's good. But the unfortunate part becomes that we then think because it was effective at one time, it's still going to be effective. And that's when it really starts. That's where the sabotage starts because we already have these beliefs of, you know, what to expect from others.

 

Amy Fiedler:
Totally. It's like what once worked. Now it's going to hinder you from the things that you need most or want most in your life. And then it ends up pushing the people that you want near you further away because they're not mom, dad or the caregiver, whoever. You kind of like adapted that pattern to get your needs met through. I love that you use the word manipulate, though, because I think a lot of people steer clear of using.

 

Dr. Liz:
The love that word. For truth. It's exactly what we're doing.

 

Amy Fiedler:
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, well, whenever I talk about people pleasing, I will explain that in a way where I say it's a manipulative behavior, but usually coming with good intent and that I get a lot of pushback. From.

 

Dr. Liz:
Clients or from other professionals in our field.

 

Amy Fiedler:
From usually people just like following me on the Internet. You know, like the following on Instagram that I have is usually like, I'm not manipulative and I'm like, Well, as a former people pleaser myself, I was very manipulative.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, I always laugh about that. And my other colleagues that have active communities online, we'll talk about that, that people will love a post if you talk about how fucked up their ex was and how like they're in the right and you don't deserve that. That's that's a million likes out the gate. If you say anything about accountability or hey, is there maybe a different perspective here? I'm not necessarily a million. I won't say not because I am grateful for for my community that there's so many self-aware individuals that are really doing the hard work. And I appreciate that. And I will also say that it's not going to lead to as many likes. When you talk about responsibility.

 

Amy Fiedler:
No, we're on the same page there. I think it's the whole idea of like the victim marketing. You know, I think it's it's it's incredibly validating for them, but it's easy to get stuck in.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, I find it incredibly disempowering. And I think it leads to these self-sabotaging behaviors that we're talking about. So when you are seeking out or only engaging in content that validates your perspective and that puts you in that victim position and your ex is the monster which so rarely is actually the case. We often have our own perspectives of what happened, and we're also both operating out of our survival behavior. So there usually isn't actually a bad guy, but because their survival behavior rubs up against ours, it feels really personal and we want that to be validated.

 

Amy Fiedler:
Yeah, Yeah. And I mean, the validation key is key to moving through these patterns. But when you stop, when you stop there, I posted something the other day about, like, what's keeping you stuck in your healing process. And people's eyes were really opened when I said, you know, awareness is really only the first step. And and that's usually that validating step. Like somebody posted something that was really relatable online sign and it connected to you and you were like, Wow, I do that too. And then a lot of people just think that's enough. It's right now I'm good, I can. Change and it's like, No, no, no. Actually, you kind of have to feel everything and process and then you have to change the actual behavior, like there's an action step in there that people don't want to take.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, because it's hard. It's it's really hard. It's hard to change how we've been programed. It's hard to change these behaviors that we believe keep us safe. And it's hard to admit that we're wrong because we want to believe that we have the best of intentions, which a lot of us do. But it's really hard to return that favor to also believe that our partner is just doing the best they can as well. So I absolutely agree with you that the validation is crucial because that leads to safety. That leads to yeah, you're right. That wasn't okay. And also, what was your role in this situation?

 

Amy Fiedler:
Yeah. Yeah. What what did you contribute to this? Because it takes two to tango here and a lot of people don't want to take that, as you said earlier, that accountability. I mean, I go ahead with. The.

 

Dr. Liz:
Manipulation piece, though. I think it's a very common self-sabotaging. And so that's actually something I have. I always talk about that we all manipulate like that's just the reality. It's just on what spectrum, you know, where on the spectrum that it falls. And also what is the intention behind the manipulation and and keeping in mind that a lot of times we're manipulating to get a need met. We're manipulating to feel safe. And I personally have become much more aware in the last few months of how I my manipulative tactics that I I'm like, which is even harder. A lot of times when we're in the when we do the work we do and we're like, no, we talk about this all day like I have, I have the highest level of self awareness. And then when you are a 16 year old son says, Mom, that was really manipulative, what you just said. Okay, All right. I'll take that humbling. Noted exactly that. I mean, that really, you know, was a good catalyst, a good motivation for me to step outside of that a little and kind of reflect on, okay, how is this coming up for me?

 

Amy Fiedler:
You have to be open to that. And I think that's you know, that's what we have going for us when we work. Well, the most most of us do when they work in this field is there is an openness and a willingness to to reflect on ourselves and our patterns. But at the same time, when, you know, when somebody close to us reflects something back or says it to us, that's a tough pill to swallow. And when it's something along the lines of manipulation, you know, then you really have to look at yourself and get really honest. And I think a lot of people struggle with that. Self honesty Key Part two.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, absolutely. So you talked about the self-sabotage being maybe the unspoken expectations or unspoken needs. How else do you see self-sabotage come up with your clients?

 

Amy Fiedler:
I see the recreation of the the roller coaster ride that they once, you know, were very I mean, that was me, too. Yeah. For a very talk about that. Yeah. And I think and this I really would love to get into because I see a lot of people struggle with the idea that there's two parts to this healing process, right? When you are recreating that chaos, it's part nervous system. Your nervous system has adapted to that previous environment that was so used to the chaos. And so I know when I was removed from that environment and I was in a one bedroom apartment by myself at peace, I was on the edge of my seat, like waiting for the other shoe to drop because I'm like, I know it's coming. I know it's coming because my nervous system has long been in a different environment and is not used to this. So this is threatening to me. But the other piece is that cognitive piece that I think a lot of people these days think it's all one or all the other. And so what happens is they start doing regulation techniques and they don't actually change their mindset and think differently or perceive people or situations differently. And then they wonder why they still struggle. I'm curious your take on that as well.

 

Dr. Liz:
Absolutely. And I talk a lot about how healing has to be both internal and external. So we have to do the internal work of healing from the trauma and really taking those steps, which I it's so important to me when I to let people know, like healing from your trauma is unfortunately not talk therapy. Like talk therapy does not lead to healing or reprocessing of trauma or reprocessing beliefs around the trauma. Unfortunately, self therapy is a our talk therapy is a great approach to self-awareness, and it's a great approach to like bringing it to light. But there there actually has to be more to it. And so that is the trauma treatment portion of it. But then also learning the emotional regulation. And I talk with my clients a lot about how those that happen simultaneously and they should, because as you're healing, you also have to learn how to regulate so we can get used to a regulated nervous system. But then the external component is also allowing for corrective experiences. So those safe people in our life that can actually give us a different template that not all people are chaotic and scary.

 

Amy Fiedler:
Yeah, I think a lot of people when I say new experiences are healing and you have to be open to allowing those in, right as you move in that direction. A lot of people say, well, where do I find those experiences? Where do I find the safe person? And I'm like, okay, now we're back at step one. We just know true. We have to learn how to discern, you know, who feels safe and who doesn't and and who can respect us and what are the behaviors that we value versus what don't we and how can we advocate for ourselves And then we can move into those newer environments and have those newer experiences that leave a better imprint. And then we feel safe I mean, I've lived through it myself, so I know the challenge. It took me years to get through it. And on the other side, and still to this day, things come up and I'm like, okay, yeah, back at. Step one.

Dr. Liz:
Exactly. But that and I love that you're saying that because even as professionals in this field, we do end up back at step one, and there's nothing wrong with that. I talk a lot about how our growth is not about that. We're watching. I mean, we see all the, you know, content about healing is not linear and all of that. Yes, I get it. But beyond that, like the baseline though, increasing, so our baseline improving, that actually can be linear. So if we look at it like we have our baseline and then we have this, you know, the curve that goes up and down. So thinking of a roller coaster, so up and down around that baseline, we just because we had a setback, just because we went back to step one, does it mean our baseline dropped down? It just means that the curve along that baseline dropped down under it for a second. But it's it's going to pop back up. And it's important that we keep that perspective of it, because I know there's plenty of days where I'm like, what am I like, What am I doing? I, you know, I can't even figure out my own relationship. So like, what the hell am I doing? And it's not true. I can figure them out. I just have bad days.

 

Amy Fiedler:
You have bad days? You're human like the rest of us. And I think that's so you know, it's so common that we think, Oh, my God, I have to have it all together because I do this for a living or, you know, or we've experienced people. I know for me, when I got started, I experienced people close to me saying, how dare you think you can help somebody when you've struggled so much yourself? And I'm like, That's exactly why I can help people the way I do, because I've been there and and not to this day is what people say to me is like, it makes me feel so much safer with you. It makes me trust you more because I know you've actually been through this and you're not just reading out of a textbook to me. And I'm like, I, I appreciate that because at least my pain is being put to good use.

 

Dr. Liz:
It's so true. It's so true. I yeah, I mean, the what we've experienced enhances our ability to help others heal because we have had to go through the entire process and and continue the process. That is a an ongoing journey. I think that imposter syndrome that we're talking about can become a self-sabotaging behavior for people in our field and for people in any fields. But for sure, because if we think we're not good enough or that we could because we don't have it all together, then maybe we are not putting ourselves out there to help as many people as we can. Or maybe we are getting in our heads as we're helping people and that can be really detrimental as well.

 

Amy Fiedler:
Totally detrimental that and like and I feel like this can really kind of coincide with that is perfectionism. I feel like perfectionism can be an act of self-sabotage as well. And really can relate to the imposter syndrome. Like, I have to have this all figured out and together. And quite frankly, that's not how I got started. I got started by sharing my mess with people and and that's how it kind of built a following and a community that could really relate to me because I was just honest. I was just I was just having a conversation with my mom earlier and saying, Oh, my uncle is listening to my podcast lately and I don't have family members that listen to my my podcast. So that's a little awkward because I talk a lot about things that I've gone through and he's so uncomfortable with it and, and but he's also, you know, in his seventies and it's it's kind of beyond him. He doesn't know this version of me. And I'm like, it's not really for you, but you know, you can listen and you're going to get to know parts of me that you probably weren't aware existed because how would you know, right? Like, just kind of like, how would anyone that follows us know what we've been through unless we've disclosed it to them?

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, absolutely. And then you have to wonder, like, what is the motivation for him listening? Like, what is what? I mean, have you asked? Because I guess I'm just curious.

 

Amy Fiedler:
He's he's shared his he said, I'm trying to get to know you better. I said, that's not the route today.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, maybe you start with my favorite meal. My favorite color. Yeah. Call me. Call me up, call your.

Amy Fiedler:
Niece up and have. A little chit chat. Maybe. Maybe. Don't listen to the heavy stuff where I'm talking about ex-boyfriends and really traumatic relationships.

 

Dr. Liz:
I mean. You really dove deep real quick there. I'm not sure. What you're gaining from. It. Right. And I. Yeah, that would be that doesn't get in your head when you know that. No. Does it.

 

Amy Fiedler:
Shockingly. No. No, shockingly. It's just I, I mean because I think I, I know and I've always kind of functioned this way and really this is how I move past any level of like, imposter syndrome. Just be honest. Amy is what I always tell myself before I post anything, before I write any caption, before I record any podcast for I come on any podcast, just be yourself, just be honest, tell the truth and it really takes the pressure off me to have to pretend I'm something I'm not or say the things perfectly. I'm just being myself. So when I record my podcast, that's the most me I could be. So, you know, I mean, he's probably getting to know some layers that he would have never known if he just showed up to Christmas and like.

 

Dr. Liz:
Right. That's a really powerful point though. And that was big for me when I started putting myself out there as well, because the fear of are people going to think I'm less qualified because of my personal experiences, because of my mental health diagnoses, because of the toxic relationships I've been in. And that was kind of my strategy as well, was like, Well, I'm just going to if I'm the one to put it out there, no one can use it against me. So like and I say that I had a situation recently where somebody thought they were being very clever in saying, Oh, well, wouldn't that be uncomfortable for you if people knew X, Y, and Z? Which way do you fresh off a situation to get into? But in time I will. And I my response was like, if you knew anything about my brand, you would know that's exactly what it is, is that I am being my authentic self and I am, you know, very open to telling people I don't have it figured out and it's okay to be human. And I think there's power in us being the one to say that because first of all, that creates so much safety for millions of people who are also afraid to be themselves just in their day to day lives, but then are constantly wondering like, what is wrong with me? And that's always been my message. Like, that's always been my like, shamed tagline of like, what is wrong with me? And to be able to create community around it. Like, actually nothing. This is this is human.

 

Amy Fiedler:
I love that, though, and I think it's so powerful. And I obviously can relate wholeheartedly to it. If I, I always say to people on a smaller scale when they're like, well, what happens if somebody points out my flaw, right, or my insecurity or calls me a bitch and I go, Can you be a bitch sometimes just like, own it, like nothing can hurt you that that you take ownership of. Yeah, I know I my tendencies. I know what I'm capable of. I know what I've done in the past. I know what I've learned to do now that is healthier and more supportive for me. I know where I could take it. So why want to see you're never going to catch me off guard and tell me something and it's going to hurt me because I know who I am. And I think that's what a lot of people tend to struggle with is taking real full ownership over who they are and where they come from or what they've gone through because they've got to work through layers of shame. They've got to work through all of that stuff to get to the other side where you have that honesty and you have that. I don't know that that's safety with yourself.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, right. And that that being also a very common form of self-sabotage is not taking that ownership, not taking accountability, not being your authentic self. And when we think about even in terms of dating, that happens so frequently, not just on the first date and not just on the second date, often through the honeymoon stage that we we fear showing up as our authentic self because we think it won't be accepted again. Going back to that being a form of manipulation, but also a form of self-sabotage, because then inevitably, if you continue to date this person, they're going to see the sides of you that you've been trying to hide. Yeah. How does that usually end up going? Well, I.

 

Amy Fiedler:
Mean, okay, so I'm I'm seven months pregnant right now.

 

Dr. Liz:
Congratulations.

 

Amy Fiedler:
Thank you. It's a whole different ballgame, right? Because the hormones are high, everything. And my boyfriend is he's like, you're you're a different person in so many different ways. Like, really good, but also very emotional. And I was like, I've always been emotional.

 

Dr. Liz:
I've just hidden it. And is seven months pregnant? Yeah. Yeah, It's no.

 

Amy Fiedler:
But but you're right. When we start dating people, I know when I first started dating, it was after a six year span of choosing to be single, very intentionally thinking I had a lot to work through on my end. I was not ready to put myself out there and involve myself with someone again. And when I finally took that step to put myself out there, there were several dates, I mean, probably months of dates that I went on that I was just sifting and sorting through how to show up the best way I could. Right. And really find my groove in that process because I had had not dated in so long. And when I finally got there, I realized, just be yourself, all right? Just be honest. And and I think, you know, alongside what you're saying is a lot of people tend to get into a dating experience and they drop in to, let's say, people pleasing behavior where it's like, I'm just going to acquiesce to and morph into whatever you want me to be, which is something I always said, which is total act of self-sabotage, because I'm abandoning and neglecting myself and trying to manipulate you into liking me by being exactly what you want me to be. Right. And eventually you're going to find out I'm a complete fraud, and then I'm going to act like I'm caught off guard. And you hesitated. But the truth is, is that it was my doing in the first place, right? Like I left my self to be something I thought you wanted or needed. And I didn't stay connected to me. And I think I think a lot of people don't realize they're even doing that.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, absolutely. And that ties back into what you were saying about even recreating that roller coaster that that all ties into it when you really think about it. Because when you're able to people please and go with the flow for X amount of time usually we can keep the peace, right? But that's only sustainable for so long. And then inevitably something's going to happen. True colors come out. It often leads to the spike in the roller coaster, but you have become so addicted to each other, like the best version of each other. Because how often do you hear your clients say, like, I just want back what I had at the beginning of the relationship, right? I just wanted how like they used to show up for me and do all these things at the beginning and I just want that back. Like I know they're capable because they did it and it's like, okay. Or they were capable of doing it for just enough time to get you hooked. And then the roller coaster start.

 

Amy Fiedler:
Or you were in a different place at that time. And so you perceived what they were doing as enough, right? And then perhaps you grew like I've had situations with clients like that where they started to really work on themselves and grow, and now they're looking back at this person going his input in any effort in my direction, like he doesn't even call me. And I go, Has he ever like as the end? No, not really. Okay, well then you were in a different place. You saw it differently, you accepted different things, and now your expectations are different, your standards are different, you know? But being attached to potential, as you're saying, is, you know, complete sabotage. Yeah.

 

Dr. Liz:
And the best of us do it quite frequently. Is the. Easy thing to get hooked on.

 

Amy Fiedler:
Well, it's and it's because it shows up in so many different ways. Right. Like people, you know, even our parents or our caregivers can show us these like little glimmers of of goodness or or, you know, I have this conversation with my siblings a lot about our own parents. And one of my siblings is constantly attached to this idea that, like, she can like, change my parents and my brother and myself are like, You'll get there. You're just going to have to accept they're not capable of certain things and and she and I see this with clients to tries every which way to change herself, adjust how she's speaking to them to get the result or the response or the reaction, the behavior that she's wanting which takes us back to the conversation about manipulation.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah. And the the idea of like, well, if maybe I could have done something different, like, maybe I could have loved them better. I could have loved them in the way they needed if if I would have just shown up better, they could have shown up better for me. And first of all, sure, in some situations, yes. Like when you are showing up better for your partner, that invites them to show up better. But in the context that we're speaking of, that's not how it works. Like you can't love somebody enough to get them to love you back in the way that you need. But again, that ties into our relationship programing. It ties in to what we learned as our survival behaviors. I know that and that's big time was mine is that if I could just be good enough, if I was just could do enough chores without being asked, if I could get good enough grades, if I could be good enough at sports, you know, on and on, I could go with the list. Then maybe I could get first of all, it got me safety, which is why it became such a they at least left me alone when I was a good girl. Right. So, like, that was great. The second part was like, Now maybe they can love me for it. Okay, maybe we didn't get there. But now my inner child is then chasing that in romantic relationships of, you know, like I've learned these skills to stay safe and maybe to get me love. Now let's try it and see if it works. But as we were talking about the beginning, that often becomes so maladaptive and counterproductive. It doesn't actually get those neat needs met at all.

 

Amy Fiedler:
Yeah, but we all do that, right? I mean, it's that caregiver modeling or just how we adapted to that environment that we then, you know, when I think back on some of the behaviors that I adopted growing up or or even the the environment that I grew up in and what was normalized, you know, like screaming and yelling was normalized. There was no conflict resolution. It was just scream, yell, berate, like to the point where you're seeing red hit threaten the whole nine yards. And then the next day there's a big smile on your face and they're like, happened? Yeah. And you're like, Can we talk about it? Oh, get over it. And you're like, Okay, all right, that's weird. And and you're uncomfortable, but you adjust because you have to adjust, right? And they're all resistant. And then you take that. And when I think about taking that into any relationship I was in at that point, like, it blows my mind now that I thought that was normal, right? And then that's where that's the eyes. I see all my clients through. Like I can't even I can't even get upset with their struggle at any point or lose patience on my end at any point because I know it firsthand. And I think that's the benefit of that as well, is that when you've walked that path yourself, you're like, I know sometimes this takes years for people to to get to that point. And and had I had support, maybe I would have gotten there quicker personally. But I didn't I had to kind of like go through a whole lot of stuff myself to get out on the other side. So hopefully I'm expediting it. Right? Right through them. Yeah.

 

Dr. Liz:
And so much empathy that, you know, when a client is sharing a story that we can see that, you know, we can really relate to, like our heart just breaks in a different way, especially when they are feeling shame or embarrassment or you watch how their heart is breaking and you know firsthand what that feels like, You know, what that rejection feels like. And with the chaos and with the fear. And I agree that that does bring a different element to the healing process when your heart is breaking for them, because your heart has been broken in the same way like you have felt that same trauma.

 

Amy Fiedler:
Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, it it really it brings a new element into that that professional working relationship with them because they feel really seen and heard and understood. And you look like you have infinite patience rights.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yes, they have. Only, you know. Yeah. Yeah. How do you help people to start to move out of the self-sabotage then and just going back to. So when I was asking how you kind of bring it to people's attention and your approach, is that you, you don't, you maybe point out what they could be doing instead. And my approach is that I do. So I will that's I'm very well known with my clients like I am not a sugar coder, I'm going to call it for what it is. And so I will say usually maybe I'll lead them there. So maybe I'm not the one to point it out. But we do talk about it in terms of self-sabotage, because I think that that is important After that is established, whatever approach that you use to get there, how do you start to move them out of those behaviors?

 

Amy Fiedler:
Well, I mean, first of all, I just want to agree with you. I do call it what it is, but but more so in the efforts of like pointing them in the direction. So I'll I'll tell them they're self-sabotaging, but it's more like, let's lead you away from this. So now here's what you need to do. Yeah. Because a lot of I think a lot of them want to talk about it for a very long time. And that keeps them in it, you know.

 

Dr. Liz:
Like if I it is that.

 

Amy Fiedler:
You have to justify it, to excuse it, to explain it away At a certain point, it's like not that there's a set allotted time for us to sit there and and kind of like process and reflect as to how this is actually making you feel safe. But, but it's really not in the end. Right. But some people want to talk about it for the next five months and you're like, that's not going to be productive or supportive for you because at a certain point we need to now implement something now.

 

Dr. Liz:
Absolutely.

 

Amy Fiedler:
So so that's my goal ultimately is, is to not skip over the processing. And and you know, that self-reflective element of why is this serving me or how did this one serve me and and really bringing to their attention what am I what's the payoff to this? Where am I doing this? Almost mindlessly, because a lot of times that's what it is. It's this unconscious. This is just my normal behavior and this is how I interact in this environment or this is how I cope with this thing. When you slow them down and you bring it to their attention and you're like, Are you getting what you're actually wanting from doing this? They're always like. Oh, you're like. Okay. And I've listened to people say, You say it. So simplistically that it makes it digestible for me. And and then it seems like common sense, whereas before it seems like this almost like foreign entity when you pointed out to them and they're just doing it to move them out of it, though, like, how do we get out of the the sabotaging behavior? My first step is always, I mean, that component of what are you wanting, right? Like what? What is, what is the behavior that you value in others that maybe you're not aligned with doing yourself? Because that tends to be a common theme I see is that their expectation of someone else is not actually how they're showing up for that person, and so they're pushing them away or they're doing their act of sabotage to get a need met, but demanding and expecting someone else to give them something different. So I bring them back to what do you value, What are you wanting, What is your need? What is your wants? Let's identify that and then let's align our behavior with it. And then that usually sparks the conversation as to what does that look like for you, which they usually hate. They're like, Could you just give me that?

 

Dr. Liz:
Just tell me the answer.

 

Amy Fiedler:
And I go, Well, what it looks like for me is different. For what? From what it what it looks like for you. You know, the way I want to be loved, the way I want to be supportive, the way I want to have affection, you know, communication, whatever it is, it's going to be distinctly unique to me and my needs. You need to get in touch with your own. And that's then a process. In of itself, for.

 

Dr. Liz:
Sure, which usually involves providing lots of examples and different ideas around it. Because for a lot of us who were raised to believe that having needs makes us needy and an inconvenience and a burden and all the things we don't want to feel like, we often don't start to put thought into our needs and let alone how to appropriately express that. And so you're absolutely right. And what I also tell my clients is that often becomes like a weeding out process because so a client might say they're just not meeting my need, they're not me, may need I don't even know if I should be with them. Maybe I should just leave. And then we talk about this self-sabotaging behavior. So how are you trying to get your needs met? Okay, maybe not such effective approaches at this point. So let's talk through that. What can we modify? We go through all that process. And then the discussion is if you are then showing up in a healthy, appropriate way, asking for a need to be met and it's still not being met, that gives you all the clarity you need on how to move forward with the relationship. But if you are still engaging in those inner child behaviors and you're still throwing a tantrum and being just wildly inappropriate when you don't get what you need, if your partner is condoning that or enabling that or kind of giving in to that, that's not the partner. At the end of the day, you're going to want anyway when you get through your healing process, because then that chaos is just as normal to them if you know, if they are participating in that.

Amy Fiedler:
Yeah, totally. Do you find that they're really resistant at the point where you point out to them, you know, this is this is what you're wanting and this is what you're needing, but this is what you're doing or this is what you're allowing yourself or tolerating from another person. Because I find with my clients, there's a lot of resistance kind of going back to the being attached to potential. They are very resistant to either a not wanting to adjust their approach, even though you can map it out for them very clearly. Right? Or they're very resistant to recognizing and accepting this person is not actually aligned with what I want or what I value. And in other words, falling into kind of the unhealthy bucket. And I should probably go elsewhere. Right. And do you find that there's a lot of resistance there?

 

Dr. Liz:
Absolutely, because that is the programing. That is what is so deeply ingrained in us to accept these behaviors that we can intellectualize as harmful and inappropriate and toxic and painful and our emotional side or our somatic side says. But that's what I know. That's what's familiar. That's that's what creates dopamine for me. That's what creates excitement for me, And so toggling between the dissonance of the the, you know, that logical and the emotional brain to say, okay, I have to make a really hard choice about what's best for me, not what's familiar for me. And absolutely, that is a process because, you know, when we're talking about being really addicted to the roller coaster or to the chaos, the it truly is an addiction. And so we crave the ups and downs. We crave the highs and lows. And we are also part of our programing is that we receive a message that chaos equates to love. So the people who love us are chaotic. The people who love us neglect us, they avoid us. But you know, all of these things. And so that is not something that happens overnight to start to decouple chaos and love. And you and I know that all too well, right? That's that was our programing.

 

Amy Fiedler:
Yeah. And just to add to that, I know for me there were components as I started to move out of it of how can I maintain like with my parents, for instance, how can I maintain a relationship when the only way I can connect with them is through chaos, like the only connection to them, The only way I can get on the phone and actually have a conversation where they engage is if we're talking about other people or we're gossiping, right, or there's a problem and it's very heightened and everybody's freaking out. And I had to really redefine those relationships. And I find that there's a lot of that that needs to take place as well, not just redefine meaning what we want in a relationship or if we're changing a relationship that's going to stay in our life, but also redefining some of those words right? Like what does love actually look like or what does caring about me actually look like? Because it doesn't necessarily look like the chaos I grew up with.

 

Dr. Liz:
Absolutely. I love that you're saying that that's my I have a post that says real love is not, and then I list multiple things that it is not. And that's where that comes from because, yeah, that is when we are programed to believe that, that the people who care about is the most are going to behave in these ways. And we allow that to continue to happen. And I love that you're saying that because it's redefining not only those relationships, redefining our boundaries and our expectations and what we're willing to tolerate. And for some people it is finding a new norm at their parents. And for others myself, it's that I won't with my parents because I, I won't continue to be have that abuse normalized and perpetuated. And so that those are decisions we have to make and that that is a really good even comparison to in a romantic relationship. Often it comes to that decision, the acceptance or change, like we can accept these components or we can decide to move out of it, but something's got to give.

 

Amy Fiedler:
Yeah. And I and I think, you know, for, for the people that struggle sometimes with making those decisions, you have to reinforce that there's no one right way. You know, as you just pointed out, like some of us want those relationships and it's an individual decision and some of us opt out or some of us really have no choice because the behavior is just so, you know, inappropriate or disrespectful or harmful to us that we have no other option but to remove ourselves completely. But There is always a choice, and that is an individual choice. And that's where I tend to emphasize to people the use of the word. And in this healing process, you know, you can care about them and you cannot tolerate that behavior. And, you know, and and and and and. In so many other ways through. Yeah.

 

Dr. Liz:
So true. The end is in our healing. The end is in our relationships. The end has to exist. Totally. Thank you so much for all of your insights. Where can people find you? What's your socials and website and everything like that?

 

Amy Fiedler:
Totally. I'm always on Instagram. You can find me at Amy, the life coach on Instagram and most other social media platforms. I'm at Amy the Life coach, or you can check out my website. Amy Future dot com Well.

 

Dr. Liz:
Thank you again, Amy. I really appreciate everything you've provided today. I appreciate your vulnerability and I just all of your helpful tips that go check her out on Instagram if you're not already following her. Just really easy to connect to content. So I really appreciate you.

 

Amy Fiedler:
Oh, thank you so much for having me, Liz. It was a pleasure.

 

Dr. Liz:
Absolutely. Thanks again, Amy, for all your insights on how to stop these self-sabotaging tendencies. And thank you all for hanging out  on relatable Relationships unfiltered. Make sure to subscribe to our YouTube channel, sign up for my newsletter and find me on Instagram at Dr. Elizabeth Fedrick. This is relatable relationships, unfiltered.