Relatable podcast 

Dr. Liz:
Hey, welcome to Relatable Relationships unfiltered. So jealousy is something that I may or may not struggle with in my relationships. And today I'm hanging out with Xavier Smith, certified relationship coach. We're chatting about how jealousy is actually a pretty normal and natural part of most relationships, but at what point does it actually become a problem? This is relatable. Relationships, unfiltered. Xavier I am so excited to hang out with you today. We have been hanging out on the gram for quite some time now and exchanging comments on posts and just such similarities in our approach. So thank you for being here. All that very long winded ness to say thank you for being here with you.

 

Xavier Smith:
So much for having me. I'm a big fan of your posts. Your posts are like your title, you know, very relatable. And I think they are things that a lot of people need to take into consideration on a regular basis if they're going to pursue any kind of relationship because it stresses the importance of communication and values and trust and so forth. I'm also long winded. Thank you.

 

Dr. Liz:
Well, then, here we go. We'll try to cram this all in 45 minutes. So we are going to talk about jealousy today. You do a lot of your content is on toxic relationships, narcissism and narcissistic tendencies. And so jealousy is most certainly a component of that. But I think, first of all, let's start by just like normalizing how much jealousy is normal jealousy. So in your opinion, when you're thinking about like a a relationship that is functional, it's healthy, has its ups and downs, but it is generally functional. What does okay amount of jealousy look like in your opinion?

 

Xavier Smith:
So there's a poll, right? When you start to actually get emotionally attached. And what my opinion is, is on like what's a healthier version is when you can identify that this feeling of attachment. It has to do with how you're processing their departure from you. So like, for example, if you're hanging out and you're with friends or with family and I'm like, man, I really wish I could be there with you. Like, that's a sure sign of you missed that person, right? You wish you could be in the same scenery with them, enjoying the same wonders, but acknowledging that but not using it to make the other person feel like they need to be controlled. That's when it becomes unhealthy. But healthy is just acknowledgment that I'd rather be with this person. I'd rather be with them and and spend these times and events. But I also realize there's a healthy amount of time to spend together, and I still respect them as a person, but I can still acknowledge my feelings.

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, no, absolutely. And I think that awareness, I think you're right. That is key. And then being able to say that you're having feelings of jealousy because a lot of people, you know, there's embarrassment around that or there's insecurity or they think that makes them weak or needy if they have those feelings of jealousy. But the reality is we all experience it somewhere on the spectrum. Definitely depends on your attachment style, depends on, you know, some self-esteem stuff. Just general insecurities. But we're all going to feel it to some extent. But I think the people that like completely deny it or will not acknowledge it at all. I think that's when we start to see some of the problematic behaviors start to set in.

 

Xavier Smith:
And not to trail off. But I think in society we have a social conditioning that is still, you know, followed us over time. So having natural emotions that don't feel so comfortable are so great all of a sudden gets shamed if we don't if we start to express that. So I think, like you said, if you start to actively deny it and revoke it and just say, oh, well, no, I don't want to talk about how jealous a lot of people are scared or feel fear of admitting these things because they may feel like, what if they use it against me? Or what if someone says I'm wrong for this? But like you said, I think we're at a time now where we need to acknowledge that these are natural human emotions on different spectrums that are not unhealthy to have. It's just more of the act that comes after it that could be considered that way totally.

 

Dr. Liz:
Which I mean, that can definitely tie in to all of these different emotions of anger, sadness, the insecurities. Like there there is so much of that that it's the reaction to that feeling that becomes the dysfunction. But I mean, also, I think there's an element of it, and I don't know why jealousy in particular is shame so much as such an embarrassing like experience to have. Like, what's your opinion on that of why people think or you think it's just expressing emotions in general?

 

Xavier Smith:
I think it's like it's it's what it does is branches off into another category from what people have told me, and this is just from what I've been told, like insecurity, like it's viewed as are you not secure enough that this person is going to be with you because you ever eat your food and then someone's like, Oh, you don't have to. It's not going to run away. So it's almost like they're they're projecting, you know, that you are insecure, that your food is going to stay in front of you because you eat it fast. Like but that's like giving me a label that you don't know is my reasoning, right? Like, maybe I'm just really hungry and I just really like the taste. Like, what does it have to be that I think the food is going to go somewhere? So why is it that me being jealous means that I'm insecure? Why can't it just mean that I miss this person and I wish that I could be there? You know, it doesn't mean that I think less of myself. So there's always some branch off to negative emotions and people try to push it back on you and say, that's a problem where it should be like, Oh, well, that's just how you feel. Well, that's okay. If anything, that's a good thing, right? Shows you really like your person and you care.

 

Dr. Liz:
Sure. Yeah. And tiring tying that in so much with the fears that we all have as humans of abandonment and rejection.

 

Xavier Smith:
Yeah.

 

Dr. Liz:
None of us are exempt from that fear. And so I do think when there is an element of that that you're not apathetic to, if your partner leaves you and you're like, Oh, I'm straight, it's whatever. Like that's, you know, either ends of the spectrum is dysfunction. And so if you are that fine with like, oh, they can do what they want, they can fuck who they want, they can, you know, spend their weekends how they want. Like that's not any better either, right? Like, both ends are extreme.

 

Xavier Smith:
What you're diving into right now is so heavy. Like, because now we're we're talking about like the social, I guess, a construct of things, right? Because love and the definition is more arbitrary now, because people have different versions of love, people have different ways of loving, then they have to go on a self-discovery. But what people also do is any behavior that deviates outside of the norm or what they consider to be normal is demonized or like shamed. So like you said, any extreme shows that there's a lack of. Right. And we need to embrace that. Everyone has their own way of seeing things so that we can actually learn to accept. And honestly, that will get people to learn about themselves more. And that's something I feel like they don't have enough autonomy to do nowadays because in society we're so busy trying to tell people what to feel, how to feel, what it means instead of giving them a safe space to, you know, give that information on their own or come to that conclusion themselves.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, yeah. We love to label. We love to tell everybody what everything means. We love to pathologize everything. Like everything has to mean something, right? It can't just be what it is. Which I think, yeah, definitely complicates things and gives a lot of us a complex because as I said in the intro, I definitely fall on the more jealous end of the spectrum. So that is my responsibility to figure out how to manage that and what to do with it and where is it coming from and why am I feeling that way? How am I communicating it? But the reality is like I do get jealous.

 

Xavier Smith:
Yeah, yeah. And what's wrong with having a preference, right? Like, what's wrong with saying, you know, sometimes I just like seeing you more than. More than what's considered normal, right? That doesn't mean you have to do it for me all the time. But just know that it's a part of my love language, right? To just be around you more. And sometimes I get a little jealous of you spending too much time, you know? But at the same time, it doesn't mean you have to, you know, compromise, but just know that, you know, it's something that I prefer. So you'll never be unwelcome, right? Like, why can't we just relay it that way? Why does it have to be, Oh, you're jealous, you're insecure, there's something wrong with you. And now it's turned into a war. Like, we didn't have to do that.

 

Dr. Liz:
We didn't have to go all that far with it. Yeah. What about you? Do you get what end of the spectrum do you fall on? Jealousy.

 

Xavier Smith:
So for me, I definitely and I grew up with parents that were always with each other. So to me I would say when I was a lot younger, I struggled with that because I felt like if I dated someone that wasn't with me more often, like they did everything, like they went to the gas station together, they went to Walmart together, My mom would have a hair appointment. My dad was in there. He'd get his hair cut. My mom was there. So that was normal to me. And when I didn't have that, I felt like other people were doing it wrong, you know, because I was like, This is how you're supposed to. So what I would do, and that's where it becomes insecure, because now I'm projecting you know, my like, I feel scared that other people are moving the way I am, and that would come off as a turnoff. So then once I got older, went through my journey and I realized, okay, well, these it's natural to feel that way, but it's also good to have a healthy balance where the other person can have what they want as well, and you can find somewhere in the middle. So I definitely still teeter on the line of I'd rather you be with me more often, like hurt, but you don't have to. But I mean, it does make it better for me. So I give space and everything.

 

Dr. Liz:
What do you identify attachment style wise?

 

Xavier Smith:
My would be more anxious. Attachment.

 

Dr. Liz:
Okay.

 

Xavier Smith:
Make it about yours.

 

Dr. Liz:
Well, I'm the glorious disorganized, so you get all of that. But I definitely lean into. So how that often works for me as I am avoidant, avoiding avoidant. If I don't have feelings for you or like if I haven't let you in yet, but then once I let you in, all bets are off. And that's where the the anxious comes in. So I am like very much. It's hard to get through the wall and when someone does, yeah, that's where it pops in and that's where I mean that's, you know, the jealousy. So I'm not like going to be jealous of I think for me because of that attachment style, like I'm not jumping from relationship to relationship. I'm not, you know, dating multiple people at once. So the jealousy isn't just like running rampant all the time, but when I have my person, that's definitely when it when it shows up.

 

Xavier Smith:
You know? And that's funny because as an anxious attachment person, I try to avoid connection just so I don't get that way. But in a way it bites me. So it's weird how like they can work similarly but be different because for me it's like if I start getting too close, then I can't help it. Like my emotions just start to take over. If I'm attracted and I like you. And then we go a week without talking, even though we're just in like dating phase or get to know each other, I feel left out. I'm like, Wait a minute, I miss you. What's going on? Like, I can't help it. I mean, now with counseling and therapy and everything, I've managed to find a way to develop, you know, adequate coping mechanisms. But still, it was like it's still sometimes a struggle for me till this day. I have to, like, remind myself, Oh, this is my anxious attachment kicking in. This is normal. You're probably busy. Call me, please.

 

Dr. Liz:
But if you get some time.

 

Xavier Smith:
Yeah, totally get that.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, that. And I appreciate you being so honest about that because I know a lot of people think, you know, as relationship experts, as coaches, as therapists, like, but just as you said, like, we're we're still facing it too. We have a lot more tools. We have a lot of experience, we have a lot of practice, but we're still in it with everyone else. So let's talk about when it becomes dysfunctional. What are some of those, like dysfunctional behaviors that manifest when jealousy is not like kept, you know, I guess like manage properly? Yeah.

 

Xavier Smith:
You know, so I, I think it's and I hate to say it, but most of the time I see this from people who are not too self aware about their jealousy or maybe feel insecure about having jealousy. So what they try to do is overcompensate through unhealthy delivery. So what they'll do is try to like blame shift or make excuses or try to, you know, put it on you and say you did something to them. You're causing this emotion. Because what happens is that in our minds and I understand this may be cortisol or the amygdala, these active responses in our nervous system come when we feel like certain things don't match what we consider normal. So if the person right does something that's out of our comfort zone, we sometimes take that as an attack. And I feel like that's the time to identify is this the other person or is it that you just don't see it the way that they do? Right. And make that distinction? So I think that's when it becomes unhealthy is when you try to make the other person overcompensate for your lack of understanding and you do it through unhealthy maneuvers.

 

Dr. Liz:
Right. Race manipulation being one of the most common that we see that when somebody is not getting the time or attention that they want, they're going to find ways to make that happen. And I always say we we all manipulate all every single one of us like it is. It is part of the human psyche. It is how we learn to get our needs met in childhood. And so same thing with the jealousy, unless we have awareness around it and we've learned how to manage it, it can become a problem. But I think that's what I see as one of the most dysfunctional behaviors that come along with jealousy is trying to manipulate that other person into either giving you the reassurance that you're looking for the time, the attention, but that often ends up just pushing them further away and, you know, making that jealousy that much worse.

 

Xavier Smith:
Oh, my God. So you, you hit you're hitting it because it's so true. Because what they do is they try to find a way to fill because you know that jealousy is somewhat of a void, right? It's like a feeling we want to fill. And for some people, what they do is they try to fill it immediately. So they'll try to make you feel bad about something so that you end up falling into their control and their whole game is to control you so that they don't have to deal with the feeling of jealousy instead of challenging sorry, instead of challenging themselves from like, where's it coming from and how can I regulate myself? So instead of going through the struggle of regulating themselves and making that improvement, they'd rather outsource their change to the other person than, say, in an unhealthy way, Oh, well, you did this or you did that, and I'm going to blame you so that you naturally start to feel like maybe I should just follow what you're doing because I want to make you mad. I don't want to make you upset. I'm trying to love you. So that could be difficult. And that's what a lot of people go through, especially with narcissistic and manipulative relationships.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah. Yeah. And that's where we see those eggshells start. Because when you are just trying not to upset them, you're just trying to keep the peace, so to speak. Like you stopped going out with your friends. You stop wearing the clothes that you want to wear, you stop using your phone when they're around because you don't want to look like you're talking to someone. I mean, all the things, right, that you are hyper vigilant of. I don't want to upset them, so I'm just going to do what it is to make them feel more comfortable.

 

Xavier Smith:
Oh, and I got a good one for you because you are doing amazing. So what I realized some people do is they normally go for people that are more empathetic because what they do is they mirror pain, right? They'll they'll make a show like they're in so much pain and this is not working for them and you're the cause. And what that will do to naturally more empathetic people is cause them to try to, you know, help nurture that. And that ends up this spiral of like the narcissistic relationship that's toxic because they keep trying to imitate behaviors that come off as if they are actually a victim, when in reality they are probably the predator, but they're, you know, mirroring and making up stories.

 

Dr. Liz:
So do you think, though, that a majority of the people that engage in the behaviors that you're speaking of currently, do you think they're doing it intentionally? Do you think that? I know there is a portion, of course, that are. But do you think that the majority of people are doing it intentionally?

 

Xavier Smith:
No, I wouldn't say that.

 

Dr. Liz:
No. Like, dissect that a little bit.

 

Xavier Smith:
Because I think that there because clearly not just narcissists are manipulative. Right. That's just that. That's a spectrum, right? They're people. But you got to look at the people who feel the need to manipulate. Right. It's not always people who are like, I'm totally aware that I'm manipulating you and I'm just going to laugh in the background. Right. Some people don't have enough self-awareness to be that diabolical. I would say a lot of people don't have that much self-awareness to be that intentionally diabolical and come up with this scheme to make you follow along into this terror. Right. Sometimes it's them not knowing themselves and a portion of the other person not having awareness. And it's two people without enough self awareness to properly dissect what's going on. And they're ending up in this spiral because most of the time when I talk to my clients, they're having to piece together what's going on and they are actually confused. So and I know you've seen that with your clients, but the confusion is legitimate, like they don't realize what's happening, but also there aren't unhealthy coping mechanisms that keep coming up like, Oh, well, you know, I'm just a giver. Oh, well, you know, that's just who I am. I wear my heart on my sleeve. And meanwhile, like, I've had some narcissists actually come to me and I'd be like, Dude, why do I hate my life? Why am I so bad at this? And I'm like, I don't know why you don't get it. Like, so I think it's a combination of both that in the picture.

Dr. Liz:
I think that is just so important to bring that awareness because so much of the Internet so much of social media is about narcissism and it is set in a way as though there's like this whole population of people which by the way, there is, but this ginormous population of people, which there is not, that does have that much awareness to be that malicious or diabolical with it, when in fact that is not what's going on. These behaviors are rooted in their adaptive child traits from childhood. They have each and every one of us had to learn how to stay safe, how to get acceptance, how to get belonging. And we all just learned it differently. And so for more anxious people, you know, that's going to be the finding, the people, pleasing the codependency. And for more maybe avoidant, disorganized, that can that can look different, that can be some of these the withdrawal or the stonewalling or but it all comes from trying to stay trying to stay safe. And I think that that is something that really needs to be understood. Now. This does not justify it. This does not make it okay. This is what.

 

Xavier Smith:
People are going to say, that.

 

Dr. Liz:
That's not the point. The problem is still like the behavior is still fucked up. That's what I'm trying to say.

 

Xavier Smith:
It still, that doesn't justify it.

 

Dr. Liz:
Right? But at the same time, if we're just assuming that everybody that is manipulating or everybody that is, you know, self-focused is just what they're trying to do is be ignorant, too. That's that's not much awareness.

 

Xavier Smith:
Well, you know, and it's it's it's kind of like I don't want to say sad because, you know, some people go on this journey of trying to, you know, add reasoning to this person and add the logic and say like, I'm going to go on Google and figure out the personality traits. And I'm like, sometimes you can't, you know, going that deep isn't really going to be that helpful because that might not be what they're thinking. If you go on Google, it could tell me 10 million things that sound similar. Like I looked up a headache the other day and I said, I'm getting an aneurysm. Like, I don't you know, you can't just assign everyone the same label now. They can fall under the spectrums of that label, but at the same time, all you can do, you can't identify and diagnose everybody. That's what a therapist is meant to do, right? So the best you could do is just look at it for what it is and say, Does this work or not? Like, that's all we can do. And say, Can we deal with this for the next ten years? Like just, I don't know, to help the thought process because I agree with you.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah. No, but and that's what I like a lot about your content is you're pointing out a lot of these behaviors that people like, maybe don't even realize is abusive or is manipulative. And I think that that's where like what I'm what I've gathered from your content, it's less about like finger pointing and more about like, let me bring awareness to you so you can keep me safe and remove yourself from the toxicity if that's what needs to be done.

 

Xavier Smith:
1,000%. And also understanding and comprehending it, because I've had so many people ask me like, is this bad? Is this like manipulation? Is this something I should be concerned about? So what I like to do in a very passionate way is like bring out, you know, like this is a behavior that needs to be questioned. This is unbalanced. And if you want to return to that space of balance, this needs to be challenged. And that's what I mostly get. People ask me personally, like, how do I challenge it? Because it is also challenging it properly because like you said and what I love that you said as you talked about fear, and I always my dad tells me fear if you put dots in between and it's like false evidence appearing real and a lot of us have different ideas and different tolerances and different levels of awareness based on nature versus nurture. So it's kind of like survival of the fittest out here. Like people are trying to work with what they have and some parents didn't start, you know, in a lane where they had a lot of self awareness either A lot of parents didn't go to therapy or learn and they didn't have those healthy coping mechanisms. So with that, you may not properly comprehend until you get to a certain point where you're desperate enough to learn, right? So there's also that consideration for sure.

 

Dr. Liz:
For sure. So even with the jealousy you like, what are some things that you might have a client question So like if, if behaviors are looking kind of controlling or, you know, it's getting dysfunctional, what might be some I don't want to say red flags, but you get what I'm saying, Flags.

 

Xavier Smith:
It's funny because I actually hosted a class every week to where I'm kind of like a professor that talks about commonalities. But one thing I talked about was the badgering approach, and I make up stuff, but like, it's basically when someone doesn't respect your boundaries in the very beginning and what they're trying to do is quickly gain access to you and approval and get to a point where and for people who have kind of a void in their love and they're like, Oh, well, I don't know if I can date now. I miss I want to have someone that person will challenge that because now you get an overflow of contact and consistency. Whereas before you met people who are kind of in and out. So that's a level of control right there that they're trying to gain because they're trying to overflow you with information to get you to do what they want you to do. So that always, in most cases leads into I say, we do this, this is what I want. This is the way that I see it. And if you don't do it, then you're not following the rules and you're bad because you can just tell from early on if they're constantly texting you, constantly trying to call you and having conversations with themselves in your DMS, you can kind of know like this person is is trying to gain something here. Like they're not worried about how you feel because they would have looked at it not getting contacted and said, you know what, hey, this isn't work and let me just just move it along, you know, But now so I don't know if that makes sense.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, no, it totally does. I just said to my client the other day, I was like, so he's he start recently started talking to somebody and he was telling you about some of their texts. And I said, you know, sometimes it's if you send like maybe one or two, like, let's just wait for the response before we send any more after that, you know, and I've been working with him for years. I know his heart. I know he doesn't even sort of fall into any of this side of stuff. And for him, he was just excited. So like when he had a new thought, he'd just like, send another text you if he hadn't got something. Gotten something back yet. But that's what I kind of brought to his awareness that when you think about it from the other person's perspective, that can appear like a violation of boundaries, that can appear like you are coming on too strong or a lack of awareness of like this isn't we're not interacting in sending me stop. You know. And I think that that is something that a lot of people aren't aware of, of how that can come across as like controlling or just like over the top.

 

Xavier Smith:
Yeah, Yeah, exactly. And, and I've seen worse like I've seen other clients where dudes, you know, when they didn't get that contact back, they would break into the person's house, they would show up on their lawn at night. Yeah. Yeah. I've had, I've had multiple like stories, but yeah, it starts to level up. So even though in like your client, they may fall on the spectrum of excited or just really happy, it's hard because there's so many that use that same tactic. There are some genuinely loving people that act this way because they're just excited and unfortunately a lot of the people that manipulate, they mirror those behaviors and it gets them in the same respect. So it's like if I that's and I think that's one of the main problems of the dating field now is a lot of the genuine behaviors excitement overjoyed just want to see I wish you were with me. A lot of these things have been used by manipulators to say, Oh, well, this is how I started to get in, right? This is out. And they may not even like like you said, it may not be on purpose where they're trying to, like, play you, but it might just be I just want to get in as quick as possible.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, but that's a concern because it's kind of it's a lack of awareness and the lack of awareness for that other person's boundaries and how their comfort level of that much interaction or that overwhelm of it. I think this also applies to the jealousy though, because early on the jealousy might kind of look like, No, stay here. I love to spend time with you, or I think you look better in that outfit. You know, it's like things where it's maybe said under like the guise of something else, you know, like they're doing it. You got something on that? Because I'm really excited.

 

Xavier Smith:
This is one that I use for my clients all the time.

 

Dr. Liz:
Like, tell me.

 

Xavier Smith:
It's like you're in my sessions or something. So like, they so like, for example, I would, I would approach it in the beginning. It's always a beginning and then buildup. So especially for the ones now, if I could tap into some of the minds of that are unaware manipulators, what they would try to do is I guess, break a boundary that's small and then take that as a win. Like the win is more about getting you to do something that you originally hadn't planned by less. They want to get away. Yeah, we're on a date and you're like, Oh, I just. I just got an hour, you know? I got to wake up early, I got stuff I got to do. Okay. But if I can convince you to, like, I'll. Come on, stay a little longer. I'm not like we're having such a good time if you actually end up doing it now, I know I have some type of control because I'm jealous of where you could be going after this. I'm already coming up with scenarios in my mind. What are you going to see next? You know, like, what are you going to do after this? You can be with your friends. You want to be with me or you're getting up in the morning and that can sprout from insecure. So and that's where you have to realize that you have to keep these these hard boundaries in the beginning to make sure that the person is genuine because. Yes, but that's not always what happens.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, no, I completely agree. And that is such, I mean, given my attachment style. But that is such an economy, that is such a turnoff. If I'm on a date or I'm out with somebody and I'm like, I have to leave by X time and it's like, Oh, come on. Like don't be lame. Or, you know, just a few more minutes. And I'm like, ill like, that is because that's exactly where my mind goes of like, if you can't even accept this, if you can't accept a boundary at all, but if you can't accept this boundary, we know where this goes well, at least I know where this goes. We're trying to educate everyone else.

 

Xavier Smith:
And it's so early. So if you're doing that from like day one, then what are you going to be like on a year from now? Totally. You don't think this is going to like, build? Because and also and this is where, you know, sometimes I heard some feelings when I say this, if you feed into it, there also might be a form of you that's enabling them, you know? So now you're saying, well, I don't want them to break my boundaries, but then when you let them do it and you make up excuses as well, how are you any different in this case? So now you're partnering on the devaluation of or devaluing yourself in this regard. So you have to do it even if you feel like you don't want to, just to make sure that that boundary is clear.

 

Dr. Liz:
That's such a good point because especially for individuals that are often on the other side of this. So we know the codependency narcissistic dance that happens so often, that is like for somebody who has more codependent tendencies, are more people pleasing? It's hard to say no, Like we don't want to hurt people's feelings. We don't want people to be upset at us. So, you know, we we're like, okay, you know, I guess a few more minutes and we're trying to justify that to ourselves of like, well, don't be rude, You know, whatever. We have to tell ourselves that we were told in childhood that develop these traits. But to your point, that's exactly what happens. And it enables the behavior and we can adapt to anything. So once we adapt to the boundaries being violated to that extent, once we adapt to the jealousy, having that much control, whatever it is, it's just on to the next adaptation of whatever, you know, whatever it ramps up to.

 

Xavier Smith:
I agree. And I just that's just a call for stronger coping mechanisms, right? When you start to feel like you could disappoint someone, then, you know, that's that's a point of challenge, right? Because what sometimes I see people who are more empathetic or codependent. Do I start to come up with arbitrary reasons why this can be disappointing to the other individual as if they know how they think, right? Like you, you don't you don't have insight into their mindset or their emotions. They could be going to date someone else right after this. But in your mind, you're thinking, I'm doing harm here and it's understandable. But cope, right? Like how do we challenge you feeling that way? What active steps can we have to regulate you where you can? Question Is this normal? Just like me and my anxious attachment. You didn't call me in 2 hours. What are you doing? You know, But I know immediately, like, say, Hey, Xavier, stop. You're doing that also.

 

Dr. Liz:
So how do you help people to cope with it? Like, what are some tools that you give your clients for regulation in those moments?

 

Xavier Smith:
Well, what I do is I learn about where it comes from first, right? Because you have to understand the origination. And if they can't always pinpoint it, then I challenge every single situation where they say, because people subconsciously will state what actually happened as they're talking. So I just keep asking questions once I learn, then I say, Does this make sense to you that this is not what you wanted, but yet this was the outcome Does this align? And then that kind of brings them to the forefront and a lot of the times I'll start to fight it. Like they'll say, Well, it doesn't mean anything. I'm just I'm just nice. I'm just a people pleaser. I'm just really kind. I care about people. Is that so wrong? And I have to like, do this little dance with them where I'm like, Of course that's not wrong. But would you say that it's correct that you gave off an image that was not who you actually are? Was it correct that you overcompensated in an area that's not natural to you and you gave that impression to someone? Because I would say because what they're viewing, they're they're taking their non coping as like a skill to write on and say, well, I'm a nice person because I gave them more. But I'm saying if you're not being yourself, are you really being nice or are you just doing what they want because you'd rather avoid the drama? And that's what I'm saying. In a good relationship you have to be 100% yourself and see if you can be accepted or not. And even if it comes with disappointing the person.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah. And showing up. Yeah. Allowing your boundaries to be violated, doing things that you didn't want to do is not showing up as your authentic self. On the flip side of the jealousy, let's talk about for the individuals who may be like when their partners are jealous or intentionally try to create jealousy for their partner. What's that look like? What have you seen on that side?

 

Xavier Smith:
You know, the only and I don't know because, like, maybe I haven't had enough clients who had this, but the only clients that I've seen have this are when they themselves are jealous and they don't want to be the only one. So what they do is they like it when the other person is more jealous because then they're like, Oh, I can give you the feeling that I naturally have on a daily basis. So they'll try to create these situations to scapegoat their own emotions. And what they'll do is they'll create scenarios that don't really exist without you creating them. Like, Oh, I'm doing something like they'll listen to the person's vulnerabilities and their weaknesses and they'll start to use that in order to make them feel like they could be losing them. Like, for example, let's say I have abandonment issues and I somehow explain that to you and you're like, Well, I know that gets you riled up. I can just stop talking to you for a day or so, right? And then they'll act like they have no idea what's going on and then gaslight you. Well, you know, that's on you because I thought I was talking to you, you know? So now feel lucked out. And now I feel like the crazy one. So now I start subconsciously chasing you for that validation that I'm not crazy. So that's kind of what I've seen be the case.

 

Dr. Liz:
Totally. I think you explained it really well. I that's exactly, yeah. What I've seen happen also that it is a projection and so maybe they are they're feeling embarrassed about it or maybe they are sick of their partner giving them shit about it. Right? So they're like, I don't like I don't want to hear about that anymore. Let's I want you to see what this feels like. And so, yeah, I agree. Like whether or not talking for a certain amount of time also like the cover which all of this kind of just falls in manipulation, the cover behaviors, but maybe sending a text but not being completely straightforward. So, you know, I am going out with a friend tonight or I'm meeting up with someone later, you know, where you're leaving out the details that maybe would give some reassurance to your partner. But there's intentionality in that.

 

Xavier Smith:
Oh, yes. To get a rise out of you, because once you start getting too comfortable, I don't know why, but for some reason that turns them into like this. Like, I remember I was dating someone and she sent me a text saying, Man, he's over here again today. I can't believe it. He's just in my room. And I was like, Ooh, you know? And then she shows me a picture of her dog and I'm like, See, why did you do that? You know?

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah.

 

Xavier Smith:
But it didn't feel intentional. Oh, it was very touching because we talked about it. I was like, Why did you say it like that? She's like, was trying to make you jealous. And I'm like, okay, so we can play around like that. But that goes to show you people can easily make that switch and start playing the game. And it works right, Especially if the person cares. So I feel like it's also a little bit of self doubt. Like, do you feel like if the person is not riled up that they don't like you? Like, do you always need them to be on edge? Do you need them to feel like they have to make sure they're on top of their game all the time or something's going? Like, I think some people get a rise out of looking, the person looking over their shoulders or not having 100% confidence in this, right? Like, yeah, people like that.

Dr. Liz:
Yeah. And I think that that ties in to our relationship programing. So the way that what was role model, the interactions we had with our parents you know we we formed that addiction to chaos, the addiction to the emotional roller coaster to the slot machine. And so when things start to goes too smoothly or things are going well, a lot of people that it feels boring or it feels uncomfortable. And so what can I do to shake this up? Because if things are feeling too safe, then that actually doesn't feel safe, because that's not the norm. It's not what's familiar. And so I agree. Like I, I know for me, like that's been a big part of my journey and my healing of my wiring is chaos from in utero day one. Then on this earth, like I it is the ups and downs of my parents relationship. And so that's what it was, role model. That's also what I experienced. And so I find myself in that the the addiction of the chaos of like if we're not going up and down. And so it's not like eliciting those emotions. Is this really love? Do I really like you? Am I really into you? And that's a lot of the healing I had to do because that can be really confusing when your brain is literally wired in that way.

 

Xavier Smith:
How did you like what things? Because I've heard this often. Like how did you work through healing that? Like, like, I guess it's too long of an answer for here, but like, like if there's like a high level response, like, because that's very interesting.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah. So that's a big part of the concept that I developed that I do in my work is the relationship programing. And that is similar to what you were saying earlier, finding out where these things originated. So I take my clients through like a timeline. We figure out what are the themes, where is this all coming from? And then it's a lot of trauma work that's tied into it. So like we have to actually reprocess the belief system. But then it's also what you and I have been talking about in terms of the awareness. And then we have to start implementing when we think about the adaptation and we have to like we have this conscious awareness of this is what's healthy and this is what's not, and I've been doing what's not. So how can I get to this other side, right? And so we engage in the behaviors, even when they feel unfamiliar, even when they feel abnormal, even when they don't feel like a natural reaction, we do it anyway and we practice until we adapt. And by no means am I saying I'm like this completely evolved human who has none of these issues because it is so ingrained, but my awareness is so deep around it and my ability to, you know, catch myself and shift the trajectory when I'm heading down that path has definitely increased over my healing journey.

 

Xavier Smith:
Do you find resistance a little bit when you work with people and you make them step into that unknown of normalcy or more, I guess, calm? Like do they often challenge you?

 

Dr. Liz:
Oh, for sure. And the thing that I say so often is like, this isn't we're not fixing this in five sessions. We're not fixing this in six months, where a lot of times not fixing this in a couple of years. Like this is an ongoing process because if it took us decades, so took us probably the first two decades of life to solidify it. When we think about kind of like the upbringing years and then however many decades since then, it's been perpetuated and it's been reinforced that this is what love is. Love is chaos. Then we have to think about how much time it's going to take for us to rewire that. And so people people push back from the beginning because even when we go through their timeline, you know, they're like, no, like my parents weren't this. My parents weren't that know, everything was fine. That's where the first resistance starts, for sure.

 

Xavier Smith:
How I am, I feel I feel you there, like I definitely can relate. So it's good to hear, like, I'm not the only one.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, for sure. And it is all possible. Even with this jealousy stuff that we're talking about, you know, getting jealousy under control is all possible. Being aware of it. What would you say are if you were to give like a couple takeaways for somebody listening? Maybe, maybe they are the jealous one and catch themselves taking it to an extreme and they don't want to. What would be a couple of things you'd suggest.

 

Xavier Smith:
Number one is being okay with the feeling right? Don't try to quickly patch it up or scapegoated or try to put it on someone else. Accept it. This is you and this is fine, right? No shame. Number to find a way to regulate yourself. When that emotion starts to rise up, do what you need to do to take it down so that you can start to question where it's actually coming from and what's causing it. Because like I said, when that level rises and the amygdala goes off, you're starting to think all over the place. You have the hijack moment that takes away your consciousness a little bit. So and number three, don't feel ashamed to talk to someone, right? Someone who's experienced in this field to see how you can find some mechanisms that can help you get through this in a healthier way because you might actually be missing out on a greater feeling because you're so you're trying to control it on your own and you can't find the way, right? So that's what I would say to do.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, I love that. How would you suggest that somebody talk to a partner about this or like, what is even your perspective on that? So if somebody struggles a lot with jealousy and maybe they've been dealing with it in a passive aggressive way because they are embarrassed or they don't want to bring it up, is there a suggestion you have of how I guess even what is your belief around? Do you think it's okay for them to ask for reassurance or how they could handle that?

 

Xavier Smith:
Oh yeah, no, of course. Because I mean, no one is perfect and we're all going to be teetering on some spectrum that's going to show that imperfection. So I think it's important that we voice these things with our partner. And honestly, that's a test to our partner too, right? Because if they're truly understanding, because we're going to grow our entire lives, so to say, I'm just supposed to be good at this and like, you're like, that's, that's a little bit of high expectation that's too unrealistic. One of the reasons for a lot of divorces in the US. But what I think is it's okay to relay that information, but also make sure your partner understands that sometimes it's nothing to do with them. Right? Like you can also reassure them it's not you, it's a me thing. I need to get through this. And honestly, it would be really helpful to me if you could just try these things out just for a little bit, just so I can get to where I need to be. Because I understand that this is my challenge and this is something I need to get through. But as I'm going through the process, can you just help me in a few areas? Use the word help the word help this arms. It's like just how can you help me? And it's a question if they say no, that's their right and you're not looking for them to agree, You're just looking for them to understand. Possibly. But even if they don't want to, that's also okay. But your partner will will understand or be willing to talk about it.

 

Dr. Liz:
At least I love it. That's exactly what I suggest. I think that's spot on. And I think that is really telling of if you are in the right partnership, if that person is like, no, figure it out on your own, that's that's your problem, you know, versus. Yes, of course, babe, I can send you a text before bed or I can send you a text in the middle of the day or whatever it is. I think that it's being aware of, like collaborating on what that looks like. So your full request to them may not be feasible, but if they're willing to say, let's talk through and find what makes sense for both of us. So I'm not enabling this, so I'm not violating my own boundaries, you know, to make you comfortable. But at the same time, I do want to provide reassurance. That's really telling of a mature partner who wants to show up.

 

Xavier Smith:
Yeah, exactly. Because then it's like, why even call yourself a partner? Like, we're trying to show up for each other and we're going to have some some things we need to work on. Why not just help out a little bit? It goes both ways, right? So because there's going to be more challenges and more issues and more things later in life and what you're just going to say that's on you, then what's the point? I always thought that partnership, a part of the benefit was that we add to each other's lives, right? We make up in areas that we may not be so great and we're like a puzzle piece. So if we're not doing that, then what type of couple are we like? Yeah, So yeah.

 

Dr. Liz:
I agree. All right, Xavier, where can people find you on your socials website? Where can you be found?

 

Xavier Smith:
So everything Instagram tik-tok, YouTube, Xavier tainment. So it's Xavier and tainment at the end. So you just take out the enter there's also Xavier coach dot com if you want to book with me I've got all my information on there and yeah that's pretty much it Xavier tainment and you could Google it and everything will come up. It's a lot of my face so beware. But that's what I got.

 

Dr. Liz:
Well, thank you so much for hanging out. I really appreciate your insights. And like I said at the beginning, the way you do your content, it is engaging and it is helpful having so much awareness. So thank you so much.

 

Xavier Smith:
Thank you so much. I appreciate your time.

 

Dr. Liz:
Thanks again, Xavier, for confirming that some amount of jealousy is normal. And thank you all for hanging out on relatable relationships. Unfiltered. Make sure to subscribe to our YouTube channel, Sign up for my newsletter and find me on Instagram at Dr. Elizabeth Fedrick. This is relatable relationships, unfiltered.