Relatable podcast 

Dr. Liz:
Hey, welcome to Relatable Relationships Unfiltered. Women always talk about being attracted to the bad boy. But my question to them is, how is that working out for you? Today I'm hanging out with K Skinny, founder of New Mindset Hudis, and we're talking all about why the nice guy shouldn't actually finish last. This is relatable relationships, unfiltered. Case Kenny. Good to have you here. You are quite the fad in terms of the content that you put out there and the relate ability, which is definitely what drew me into your content that you really just say what everyone is thinking in terms of relationships, for sure.

 

Case Kenny:
Hey, thank you for having me. And I love the the sign behind you. Obviously, it's kind of what I stand for. You know, I'm pretty adamant about not being you know, I'll take the term expert if someone wants to throw it at me, but I prefer just being relatable and doing exactly what you just said and, you know, speaking truth in ways that reminds us of truth. Because I think the reality of life is when I say things or record a podcast or write quotes like these are obvious things. These are obvious things, but like life has a way of making us forget. So I think it's kind of my job and what I'm so drawn to is just speaking, speaking truth to relatable topics that we've grown distant from. So I appreciate that. Yeah.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah. And I and it's clearly like people are so connected to the content that you put out in that way. And I think it's exactly what you're saying. It's the things that they know to be true. But so much content that's put out by, let's say, said experts gets really confusing for a lot of people. And so I know for like a lot of my clients, like it does become a bit of a mind sort of trying to process through like what should I think, what should I feel, what, you know, what's accurate, what's not. And what I really appreciate about what you do is, like you said, you try to keep it as simple as possible that like, hey, like we don't have to really overthink this relationship relationship thing as much as we are.

 

Case Kenny:
Yeah, and I think kind of what you just describe is kind of what I think the problem is. Like. So many people are looking to other people to tell them what to think. And I think that's the problem in and of itself. I think it's a great thing that people give their opinions. Of course, I kind of do it for a living myself. But you know, in a day and age where, you know, there's dating rules and there's here's how to respond to this and here's how long it should be until you get why. Like, I think a lot of people have gotten into this funk of having other people define right and wrong timelines from know what you need, what you don't need. And of course, there are certain things that, you know, I think we could prescribe some expectation to you, but for the most part that's not true. And that's why I'm so drawn to in in my practice of everything I do of of mindfulness, not self-help, not rules, not this, not that, because mindfulness at its core is all about finding your own clarity. And mindfulness is all about question and answer. And I think what I've so drawn to and what I do well in a sense is encouraging people to ask themselves certain questions so that they could find the answers that are right for them, not copying and pasting some blueprint that works for other people to be inspired. Of course. But I think that the greatest thing we could do that I encourage people to do, which is come back to themselves, look inside, find the answer that makes sense for them, because we do not need the same things in life. And in fact they vary so wildly, so for me, I just really try to encourage people to get real with themselves. And, you know, clarity is a gift and it's something that we can all give ourselves.

 

Dr. Liz:
Certainly for sure. And that's such a great point because I have so many clients who will ask me that, like, Well, how long should I wait? You know, just start dating again after this break up or, you know, how long do I wait until I sleep with them or whatever the question. And as you're saying, there is no right or wrong to that. It it really is what makes sense. And what I always talk about is like what feels in alignment for you and with your value system. You know that that your nervous system feels at peace with which ties into a lot of that mindfulness. So I want to talk about that today. The the idea of the nice guy. First of all, do you get put in that category of the nice guy with like how much you talk about emotions and feelings and.

 

Case Kenny:
I yeah, I mean, yes, for sure. I feel like I should I feel like I've been put in various buckets over the years from people who know me and people who don't know me from nice guy bucket to sensitive guy bucket to feelings sharing guide buckets. And I think, you know, younger version of me would be very averse to that type of labeling because I think, you know, to the to the theme that we're likely developing here, there's this weird cultural thing on both ends of being a nice guy or a good guy, because allegedly women like bad boys and a nice guy is a pushover and a nice guy doesn't have that edge. And this on the other or on the sensitive side, you don't want to be a sensitive guy because that's a woman's job and you can't be like, oh, all these ridiculous things. Right. So I think I've been thrown either way. But I love I love that, you know, I'm 35 now, I think. And when I was younger, maybe not so, but like, I like I love hyperbole, like, I will jump into it. Now, when people ask me what I do for a living and I say feelings for a living like I'm all the way into it because I think it's so powerful and I think it's the, you know, the best thing for me and the best way to live my life. But yeah, I think these labels are very misguided on both ends.

 

Dr. Liz:
Certainly for sure, because that that nice guy idea, like you're saying, it turns into the passive man, the doormat, the pushover, all these things that society is suggesting is unattractive in a male when we're supposed to be drawn to the masculine side of things. And this idea that both can't exist, how do you kind of navigate that when you know that it's mutually exclusive, that if you are nice or sense? Yeah, I mean, you can't be masculine. Yeah.

 

Case Kenny:
Yeah. It's something I think about frequently. Yeah. So I think what you just circled a good point, like the idea of like a masculine man or a masculine man and a feminine man. We're in a very interesting time in life. Where what are those terms even mean anymore? But, you know, for the most part, it's like women want a masculine man, or at least aspects of a man being masculine. And, you know, I think even the term masculine gets us in trouble because we've prescribed certain expectations to it from media and social media and movies that attached to it, you know, performative things where men will do what they think is masculine because they heard a story about this being that or the other. So I really think we need to get away from from terms like that. I did an episode somewhat recently where, you know, I was thinking a lot about masculine or nice guy or like what someone, a woman who dates men might want in a partner. And I was like, I think we should just get rid of these these terms of I want a masculine man and say, I want a mature man. And I know that's really boring. It's like something your parents would tell you, but all the greatest advice is boring. I learned definitively, but maturity is the ultimate masculine quality. It's also the ultimate feminine quality in its own different channels, like what is more masculine than a man who keeps his word, who does the difficult things, who is upfront and honest, and who doesn't screw around, and who is an ambiguous, who isn't, doesn't go hot and cold. That's maturity. So let's just call it maturity. And instead of twisting our minds and saying, Well, I want a masculine man. And what does a masculine man mean? Let's just say I want a mature man and here's what maturity looks like. And with that it's going to come a nice guy like niceness. I don't know why we've gotten that thrown around so much, but why wouldn't you want to be with the nice guy? Sure. We don't want a pushover. We don't want this, that and the other. But again, these are just words that I think we've we've kind of thrown in a in a stew and have kind of lost the meaning of it. But maturity is one that I think we can really highlight and define and use that as a North star instead of being confused by all these different labels.

 

Dr. Liz:
Now, I love that you're saying that because that is exactly what I that's so emotional. Maturity is so important for me when I when I'm dating. So when I'm starting to talk to somebody for the first time or I'm getting to know somebody and there's a lot of ways we can pick up on their emotional maturity. But I always tell people the first two times you're really going to be able to tell is when you have a hard conversation and when you set a boundary. So those are two like very clear instances of of what their emotional maturity is going to be. And I love that you're using that term instead, because for me, when a man becomes disregulated, which society might be put into that masculine energy of that, he's maybe like, you know, assertive or he doesn't take any shit or, you know, whatever that is. But I call that dysregulation and throwing a tantrum. And I don't find that like masculine or mature or attractive in any way. And so I love that you're using that term.

 

Case Kenny:
Yeah. Yeah. It's a great way to kind of cut through the noise in the assumptions that we've come to it. And it's also a great point because I've done episodes of or I just say, you know, the beginning of a relationship is not real because it doesn't have any drama, it doesn't have any conflict, it doesn't have any standing up for yourself, introducing a boundary, it doesn't have any of that. And we need that right to tell someone's true characters, to tell whether they're masculine or mature or whatever lens we're looking for. You need some drama, you need some chaos, you need some awkwardness, you need that because that is how you see someone truly is. They we got it a little twisted because, you know, the first couple of dates, hopefully, you know, when you're at a mature age, it's like you're both on your best behavior, right? You're trying your best to be your best and do your funniest using all your best jokes like it's not real necessarily. I mean, of course it's real, but it's not real life. And so we need to get in that situation where we can see someone's true colors and see what comes out of it. And that's where we start to really get to know someone. But that's such obvious advice, of course. But I think we forget that very, you know.

 

Dr. Liz:
And I think that that's exactly it, because I do think that there are times when you can tell, you know, in those first couple of days, it's okay. So are they asking questions back? Are they reflecting or validating what they're hearing? Are they being reciprocal in the engagement? How are they treating the person who just brought you drinks like, yes, we can pick up on all of those type of things for sure, but like you're saying, we are we are showing up as our best selves. We are being polite, we're being funny. We're and we're not dealing with work stressors or financial stressors or all these things that come up down the road. And so while I do think and when I'm coaching on on dating and relationships, I am talking about that like there are some things that we can pick up on, but a lot of that doesn't happen until down the road when you had your transition from your transition where you like started to become more comfortable with being like a nice guy. So not saying that sounds like you transition from like an asshole to a nice guy.

 

Case Kenny:
Haunted past, right? Right.

 

Dr. Liz:
When you started to become, like, more comfortable in owning that, what did that look like for you? Like, what was the process of I guess even let's back up even further. How did you even get into doing and writing the content? You know, like what you're doing currently, but then when you took ownership of that, what that looked like?

 

Case Kenny:
Yeah, I mean, so I started doing all this. I never really had any desire to be in self-help or the wellness space. If anything. I was always kind of cynical towards like, who are people to tell me how to live my life? The whole, you know, kind of immature outlook on people. But yeah, basically when I was like 28, 29, I just I was working in sales job at the time, traveling a lot and I was just like, Man, it would be really unfortunate to look back and realize that I didn't challenge myself to have clarity around what I was doing, who I was dating, what my aspirations were. And I'm a pretty type-A person. I was just fired up by the lack of clarity that I kind of had in my inner life, because it was very easy just to do things on the exterior. But I didn't really have a level of I didn't have a point of view on why I was doing things. So in a very metal way, I decided to start the podcast as a way to challenge myself. 2018 I guess I wasn't quite as popular as it is now, and I saw it as just a very vulnerable means to do these kinds of things, to hop on a mic and speak to what I thought I had learned and challenged myself in the process and make sure that I validated it. And basically the rest is history. I learned through that process what I was doing was practicing mindfulness in my own way, making sense of my memories, challenging myself, and the rest is history and really, obviously what I learned through that process is just how incredibly rewarding it is to have clarity in your life, to have a why behind what you're doing and why you're doing it, and not just be copying and pasting timelines, expectations that the whole shebang, which, you know, a lot of people, it could take a lifetime to figure that out. And certainly I haven't figured it all out. But, you know, through this process of, you know, I've released 500 podcast episodes, I've written thousands of posts, I've done hundreds of interviews doing mindfulness at the scale that I do it literally hours, like I've just found so much ability to tap into intuition, which to our opening. It's like we all have intuition, we all know things, but there's just a lot of layers that we have to cut through. And I've managed to cut pretty far through just through practicing the the muscle of mindfulness. So that's kind of how I got here.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah. Yeah. And was that did you have friends who, like, gave you shit for what you were doing or, or, or did you have people in your life that were confused by what you were doing? Like how did you kind of navigate through that?

 

Case Kenny:
Yeah, certainly. Yeah. I mean, I would say less friends and more like at the time, like I had invested 12 years into a career in advertising and technology sales and it's a sales role. So it's very type of how much money can you make, how much influence can you have, How big is your Rolodex? Who do you know, The whole thing And I had attached a lot of, you know, validation and identity to that. And so when I started sharing my feelings on the Internet, a lot of people were like, What are you doing? Like, why are you even bothering with that? Like, just like, go and get paid. Like, we're like, why are you bothering with this kind of stuff? So, yes, certainly some judgment and some caught some strays from people who really didn't matter. Of course, in the grand scheme of things, of like, you know, what am I doing? But, you know, you know, people who knew me knew me. I keep a close, tight circle and that on me as that group of people, you know, obviously supported me. But, you know, stepping into this has opened up an incredible network of just compassionate, powerful people who, you know, don't get thrown by words like sensitive or cringe or, you know, whatever, know, normies are thinking right?

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, right. Yeah. And how do you help? Because I assume you have people who kind of like ask you and I know that's a big part of the mindfulness of so even for men, like for men who are maybe trying to navigate the societal expectations around masculinity and trying not to be the nice guy, but also like maybe my girlfriend has told me too many times how much of a dick I keep showing up as. So like I also want to kind of figure that out. You know, when you're helping somebody to find balance, what does that even look like? That they can really step into their power as the mature man versus the masculine man?

 

Case Kenny:
Yeah, I mean, usually it comes down to some like a variety of like performance. Like I think a lot of men are just performing, as are women too. Like we've adopted these masks and these roles that we think we need to do in order to have a certain outcome. And that's derived from probably a lot of different things. I'm sure we can go into childhood and all that kind of stuff. We can also look at social media and realize that we're we're copying people because we think that they're happy or fulfilled in certain sense, and we want that or we think we want it. And so we emulate. We are we are creatures of of mimicking. There's a whole theory of mimetic desire. And that very little in life is purely defined by our desire, and we're literally copying people. So, you know, a lot of times when I, when I talk to men, it is it's a matter of like unbecoming. It's a matter of letting go of certain aspects that have been stacked on top of who you really are. But that we've been doing in a performative way because that's what men do or that's how men act. So, you know, there's this whole side of masculinity that a lot of people like to call it toxic masculinity. And I think any behavior that is destructive is toxic, whether it's masculine or feminine. But yeah, I think I think usually it comes down to some element of that. And, you know, I think the easiest advice to give a man would be like, Oh, go to therapy, like talk to someone. And I still think I think all my best guy friends all go to therapy and it it is the norm in our conversations. I understand that that's not norm for everyone. So I usually encourage them to pick up a journal. I think journaling really is like a such an easy segway into something more powerful. Journaling is one on one. No judgment, No, you don't have to say the right thing. It's there's a lot of freedom associated with it. And it also shows me the power to be honest. So somewhere in the mix there, I think there's a lot of ability for men to be like, okay, well, maybe I've haven't been honest with other people because I haven't been honest with myself. And, you know, let's let's cut it off at the pass and let's start practicing more of our own form of self honesty.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, that self reflection, self awareness, which is a lot of the work that I do with people, is like until we actually know where our behaviors are coming from and from a high level. Sure, when we're talking about like society or that influence our social media, but also like you're saying, whether it's childhood, it's what has been influenced, it's what has been role model, what has been programed. Until we know all of that, it's really hard to know how to head in a different direction. Like until we know how quickly we've been programed, we can't figure out how to reprogram because we don't we don't know what we're changing. We don't know what we're up against. When you're talking about men like, not like. So they're wanting what they're seeing other people have or what other people want. What do you think? Whether it's the masculine, so to speak, toxic masculinity or it's the nice guy. What do you think men want? Like at the root of it?

 

Case Kenny:
Yeah. I mean, I could say things like men want to be understood and stuff like that, and I certainly agree with that. I no, I think you know, a lot of men have been duped into this this, this race of like resources, like men need to acquire and accrue and build resources in young so that they will be successful, attractive mates like the whole story there. You know, there's in dating there there's the lines right that like for women it's the right guy. For men, it's the right time. And usually that's later because men spend so much time focused and obsessed on like building, building things and resources and successful career and who's to say that's right or wrong? Like, I strive for an element of success and wealth and these things. But I think a lot of men are very myopic in thinking that that is the point of their life. And until they have that and the identity that comes from it, you know, everything else is on hold. Or even worse, from an insecurity perspective, everything else is going to be a struggle for them because they're not CEO or, you know, wealth this or wealth that. So, you know, I think a lot of men fall into that into that trap, which is tricky because I don't think it will ever be enough in a sense. But yeah, I think a certain element of that's what men want. But, you know, I think at its core, men want what women want as well. You know, the man wants to be understood. Men want to be seen, men want to be useful. There's the what's it called, the hero instinct, which is like men want to be seen as useful and powerful and irrelevant. Everyone wants that, of course. But men, you know, there's a certain element to being a man, which I think is awesome. It's great to be you know, that to fall into the cliche of, you know, powerful and assertive and confident and strong. And I think, you know, men need to find outlets to prove that that aren't so attached to identity because I think you could chase your tail forever with that.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah. And what I honestly think is at the root of it all and with with the clients, male clients I have sat with and conversations I've had personally, professionally, I think what it's at the root is men want acceptance. I mean, they want acceptance and belonging in the same way that any gender does. But when we're talking about this from the lens of whether you show up with that masculinity, because that's how you've been taught to get that acceptance. Or on the flip side, the nice guy. So the quote unquote nice guy. So we're not talking about the mature guy, but, you know, like falling into that passive or again, those are the adaptive child traits of that is how I learned to get my needs met at one point. And so that is what I'm flexing now, whether it is overly aggressive or it is passive. But I think what for a lot of of men it's identifying they want to be accepted. They want to be esteemed and and I think that if we got to the root of that, we could probably head towards the middle of the spectrum to the maturity and find that that's probably a much more effective way to achieve what they're truly desiring.

 

Case Kenny:
Yeah, Yeah. It's such a good point. I mean, the thing that I always struggle with for a long for a long time was the idea of like we're all victims and victims because being a victim sounds so traumatic and I think we should reserve that for, you know, for instances where it makes sense. But I mean, it is so true, you know, as I get older to look back at like certain inclinations I have, like they didn't just come out of nowhere, right? Like insecurities aren't just born overnight and doubts and these identity frailties, it doesn't happen because it's Tuesday. Like these things came from somewhere and very likely in childhood, adolescence, and then reinforce it through different relationship dynamics throughout life. And yeah, I think you're so right. I think without going back and trying to get to phase zero of where these things came from, it's like trying to find a light switch in the dark. It's so much more difficult. It's like we're starting on chapter five. It's so, yeah, I think, you know, going back and, you know, trying your best to dissect some of these things, not necessarily to, you know, I don't know, come to terms or like forgiveness or whatever it may be. I think that kind of thing could take a long time. But just like the gift of clarity to say, like, here is where some of this started, I just think that alone can kind of really help kick start that process.

 

Dr. Liz:
I agree, because when we know what has been role model for us and we know where it came from and we can recognize that the thing we really want is the thing we keep not even getting close to, because these traits, these characteristics, these behaviors, those are actually pushing that further away that like it's the hamster wheel. And so having that awareness, they can start to pivot. They can try new things. Even when you're talking about the mindfulness, I would love to hear some like ideas that you give to people for practicing daily mindfulness when they are trying to figure out, Who am I? What do I? What do I want? Not What is everyone telling me I want? And how do I how can I achieve that? What are some mindfulness like tips you give to people?

 

Case Kenny:
Yeah, I think I mean, I'm a big proponent of journaling because journaling is like the purest form of mindfulness to me, which is literally the self Q&A, like the, the, the idea of finding yourself, becoming yourself, right? It's what we're all seemingly obsessed with in a good way, because that's the purpose of life. I think sometimes we go about it wrong, right? We try to become ourselves by becoming more. We always think that like who we are is is less than who we need to be. And in a like a linear sense, maybe that's true, but in a characteristic quality sense, I don't think that's always true to my point about unbecoming. I wrote an email the other day in my newsletter about allegedly I don't know if you actually said it, but like Michelangelo, when he was asked how he carved out the statue of David, he simply said, You just carved away everything. That wasn't David. And everything that was left was David, the big slab of stone. And it was like, Yeah, it's carved everything and everything That was left was David. And it's like, I see life in the same way. It's like it's about letting go because I think you're teens in your twenties are about respect, the trial and error, all these things. And then, you know, as you get into your thirties and forties and beyond, I think that is when you really look back and start to let go of things that don't align. One of the my favorite journal prompt questions is kind of a back back door into figuring out what you want in life, which is the question of what don't you want to regret? Because regret is a topic that I think is really, really powerful, not as like a fearful motivator to be like, I don't want like a fear of regret, but like, regret is one of those topics that is very personal. Like it's very easy to copy and paste other people's goals, aspirations, quality checklists, all these things. It's much more difficult to rationalize copying, pasting someone else's regrets because regrets are personal, right? If you're you'd be like, it's going to be difficult for you to say, I'm going to regret that when you really don't, and it has no motivating factor for you, but for you to sit down and say, What don't I want to regret? I find that I really tapped into a place of honesty and is a good starting point. Then to start dissecting that and backing into actions. One of the other things I love to encourage people to do is ask themselves the question of I'm the kind of person who and complete that. But with verbs, no adjectives. Adjectives are very elusive, bright, confident, happy, successful, or doesn't really mean anything unless you could have verbs that would make you that way. And then you go and do the verse. So really just different forms of journaling that are a great starting point.

 

Dr. Liz:
No, I agree. Because, I mean, it's it's the things that we're not we're just going through the motions that we're not stopping to think about, not to put you on the hot seat, but what are a couple of things you don't want to regret when you do those type of prompts.

 

Case Kenny:
So, yeah, I haven't done that one in a bit. I, I mean, for me, like trying is a big thing. Like I'm big about like trying and failing and like creativity is a big thing for me. So like, I never want to regret having an idea and not at least trying it. I think the greatest gift in life is to take something from zero to something else. You know, honesty and communication. Again, boring freaking topic. But for me, I like I don't want to ever like regret a situation that could have been improved through just honesty, no matter if it's awkward or embarrassing or whatever it may be. So yeah, just the boring stuff. It's not always about like I don't want to regret not going to Mykonos and partying. It was not always like I'd like that. It's more like boring stuff.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, No. And for me, that would be like, I wouldn't want to regret not spending as much time with my kid as I as I can. You know, like I that would be. And that's probably like would be the main one that would stick with me is like, I wouldn't want to regret not loving my child in ways that I was not to give him the opportunity to break that cycle. You know, and and I think that a lot of people don't stop to think about it from that lens. Like, I really appreciate that perspective of how we can decide on a lot of things we want to do, as you're saying, by figuring out what we don't want to not do. We don't want to miss out on what we don't want to get to know. That's a great perspective.

 

Case Kenny:
Yeah. Yeah, it's a bit of a mind jumble, but yeah, I think sometimes working backwards can help you move forward. Certainly.

 

Dr. Liz:
So do you. Are you single in a relationship? Do you date? Like what? What's your situation?

 

Case Kenny:
Yeah, I mean, I'm in a relationship. We live together here in Miami. Been dating for for like two and a half years.

 

Dr. Liz:
Okay, so that's I was going to ask what the timeline. So you are pretty heavy into this work when you guys started dating. What's that like for you then? Like, are you guys having a lot of mindful conversations? Do you like how are you applying the work that you do into your relationship?

 

Case Kenny:
I think it just natural. I mean, like, like we're very much on the same page as far as like communication styles and things like that. Like in my like, like mindfulness is my life and my career and everything, but it's not like outside of, you know, going out and stuff. I'm sitting there saying, you know, tell me about your fears and these kinds of things. We're just normal people living normal, normal lives. But I think it's the both of us have the inclination to just be overly honest and, you know, bring self awareness with us. So, yeah, I mean, I think, you know, I think me being older now, older in a sense, has just really helped with that process. Again, I think maturity, whether it's maturity that comes with age or maturity that comes with awareness, is is the the breakthrough thing. And I think for me it was just a matter of like growing into these things that I was really drawn to but trepidatious just on the label side, I didn't want to be too this or too that. And I just realized that, you know, those kinds of labels are are junk.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah. Was your partner into nice guys when when you guys met?

 

Case Kenny:
I mean, in the in the good sense of the sense of, you know, a respectful I mean she's I mean, she's got her head on straight show me as he's never fallen into the the trope of of of any of that so I know that would issue. Yeah yeah.

 

Dr. Liz:
So what are some things that you would tell people to look out for is that like when we're looking for. So we're going to throw out both those labels so we we don't care about the masculine and we don't care about the nice guy. But if we're looking for the mature relationship, what are a handful of those? And we've talked through some of them, the, you know, open communication and but what are some things even beyond that that you might suggest that people look for when they're trying to decide, even like if commitment makes sense?

Case Kenny:
I mean, I think the biggest one that I, I also talk a lot about is the idea of understanding like someone understands you, which is a whole topic in and of itself. Like what does it mean to be understood? Like you could only be as understood as you are honest with someone else, right? So it becomes there's more variables at play than just someone being like, I understand you and, and we can't expect someone to truly understand us. But, but there is an element of practicality in the beginning when it comes to the way that I think about it is, you know, you deserve empathy at face value. That is, you feel a certain way, you voice it. Someone says, I understand that you feel that way, I understand it and I accept it. I don't need you to validate that you feel hurt or insecure or whatever it is because of something I've done or said. I understand it. I accept it. The empathy at face value that is what someone deserves in a partner. I think where you can get a pretty good glimpse into someone's lack of empathy at face value is if they require why? If they require a thesis statement for you to validate and they need to agree with why you feel that way in order for it to be valid. So I think everyone deserves surface level empathy. It's called surface level understanding. They understand that what comes after that, of course, is is much more complicated. And, you know, that's more of a baring of your soul to each other in that connection. But everyone deserves face value level empathy. I understand that you feel a certain way. I'm not going to challenge it just because I don't understand it. Literally, just because I wouldn't feel the same way. Just because I am about you doesn't mean I won't accept that as valid. I think that's like one of the signs of emotional maturity that someone can be with someone else and be on two different wavelengths reacting to life but still accept it as valid. I think it's an absolute must in a in a partner.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah. And something that you can pick up on actually pretty quickly because even on first dates and the, you know, initial conversations when you're first getting to know each other, I think you can pick up on a lot of if somebody has the ability to hold space, obviously not on the deeper level as as you're saying, when you're really starting to get to the raw parts of each other. But even like if you're talking about how work was that day or you're talking about how you feel about your boss or whatever that you talk about on a first date, that surface level empathy, like you can pick up on that.

 

Case Kenny:
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, you can pick up on it with the words that are used with you feel like challenged by them. It's like to your point, like them providing a space where you don't feel judged by saying how you feel. I think it's it's a must and it's the foundation for anything deeper that would come. But I think a lot of times we I don't know. I don't know why we do it necessarily, but we we turn a blind eye to that and that sets us up down the road for not being able to be honest and open and vulnerable. And that creates all kinds of issues, obviously.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, Yeah. Or it's challenged. And so whether somebody is dismissive of that experience or as you were saying earlier, they feel the need to to challenge it or to force you to explain so that they can understand it. Yeah, that I mean, that really does that's one of the most effective ways for those walls to be put up pretty early on. But in the same way that we're talking about how men are kind of can be programed towards the the toxic masculinity or can be programed in that way women and also being programed to be attracted to those men. So let's like switch angles a little bit away from the men and the women that you talked to and that you work with. What do you what is have you seen to be that dry? I'm sure you get just an insane number of DMS and just everything like that in terms of people baring their souls to you. Well, and I know you even you have like the question and answer on, on Instagram and stuff like that. What do you see that to be like when when a woman is attracted to the bad boy? What are your thoughts around that?

Case Kenny:
Yeah, well, I'll answer then. I'd love your perspective because you're probably more informed than mine, because all I could do is react from my place where I like. I don't get it. I don't like.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah.

 

Case Kenny:
As much as I am, like try to be soft and sensitive compassion sometimes. Like, I just don't understand self-destructive behavior. It's like if it's self-destructive, if you're DMing me saying I always go for the bad guy and always get hurt, I'm just like, Well, then stop doing it. I don't want to oversimplify life here, but if you have a pattern and you're self-aware enough to be, you have a pattern and stop doing it. And I obviously life isn't that simple. Uh, I don't know. I, you know, I find a lot of people sometimes have a deep level of awareness which is so great. And they, they understand that a lot of self-destructive behaviors come from the fact that we seek out familiarity. And that's, again, familiarity that I was likely born in childhood and adolescence where at the fight and scrapping earn love and then love was taken away and then dangled in front of us and we got addicted to those highs and thought that the lows were part of the game. And we thought that that is what love is. And bad boys, I suppose, love to give us and taketh away and hot and cold and the whole thing. And we just seek out familiarity. Subconsciously, we don't think about it. So I've had some, some women come to me with that level of awareness asking me like what to do. And I was like, Well, I don't know. You've gotten 99% of the battle done. You've you've got your why all that comes next is is self-control and awareness in the moment, not in retrospect. So that's kind of my experience. But I'd love your take as well.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah. No and that that's very spot on that that I mean it does it comes from how they've been programed. So in the same way we're talking about how men learn those behaviors from what has been role models and women learn to be attracted to those behaviors by what has been role modeled. And so that's exactly it. If they grew up in a chaotic environment with the chaotic male figure, those ups and downs are what they know. And so we hear so often that the nice guy is boring, like so dear to your point about things being the things that are best for us are boring. Broccoli and nice men like that. So I think that that is hard. But I love what you're saying about the awareness is the first the first like part of that, but then choosing a different behavior. That's really where the Reprograming takes place is that we can know what is right for us all day long. We can know we should go to the gym, we should know, you know, we know we should eat vegetables. We know all of those things. But it's actually taking the action to do it that I think for a lot of people it's the hard part. And so the hardest part of that, though, is that they can't create an evidence log, which is the term that I use when I talk about like when we start to change our beliefs or start to learn that something is actually better for us, we need an evidence log to support why it's better for us and why it's actually working out for us in a way that this other thing isn't. But if we don't do the thing, we can't track the evidence to support that that thing is better. And so I do think it ties into what you're saying, like there has to be the choice to start to date outside of your norm or even this is like, I guess maybe semi controversial, but if you date within your norm, but you date somebody who is demonstrating the ability that they have their own self awareness and they have their ability like they're also trying to change. Okay, so maybe she's attracted to like the assertive dominant male, but he's showing up like he's trying to show that he is, you know, he's self-aware and he's demonstrating that he wants to show up better. Like I do think we could find a gray area in that. What does that make sense? Like, what are your thoughts on that?

 

Case Kenny:
Yeah, for sure. Because I mean, everyone going about their own change for sure. And I think that balance, the balance that life is about balance. Life is about overcoming those things, whether it's masculine tendencies, female, whatever it may be. The balance is where you want to meet that person, of course. And it's it's a it's a willingness to do those things. It's a willingness to embrace the difficulties of doing those things that matters. Like, I don't think we should expect a picture perfect person in the same way that we're not picture perfect people either. And and we we meet in the middle the tongue twister.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah. Yeah. So that was quite the tongue twister. Yes. And I and I agree. And I think we're often given this advice of like, you know, if you normally go for this guy and it's not working out, then go for this completely other guy that's maybe not going to work. Maybe the attraction isn't going to be there, but at least go for the one guy or girl or any gender that you're going for, who has self-awareness, who has a desire, and the ability to show up in a mature way, which takes this thing full circle. Like basically we're looking for maturity. Yeah, I mean, I guess we are the case and been done. So I mean, on that note, I'll see you around.

 

Case Kenny:
Oh, see, all roads lead back to maturity. The world's most boring but most important topic. Yeah, it's true. It's also it's like I think about who I was when I was 20, 25, 35. Drastically different people. Drastically different people. And I think we need to give room for that. Certainly, I think there's certain core fundamentals that make a person a person that is like, Oh, this is why you're unique and this is something you'll always carry with you. But I think we need to leave allowances for someone to change and that's great. We want people to change. But the only way you're going to change is with self-awareness and with maturity. And I think if someone has those qualities and you have a good day together, that is what we're looking for. We're not looking for labels of this and that and, well, you know, Susie's boyfriend is this way or you or Doug is dating none of that. It's it's looking for these things that matter and humanity, maturity and awareness and then finding the few little things that really pique our interest and just trusting ourselves from there.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, and that's a great point. Well, what what matters in humanity and I think that's a a great way to wrap that up case. Where can people find you So website you hosted an amazing podcast. I was all about that. All your socials.

 

Case Kenny:
Yes. Well, thank you for having me. This is this is a great chat. I always love chatting with people who know what they're talking about in different ways. And I just I always think it's cool that not that I don't know what I'm talking about, but this is all clear. This is life. This is me saying I said I never claimed to have been studied, but it's always it's always really interesting to come to someone who has studied these things and who has expertise and they say, okay, well, what you're describing is this and it's that. I was like, it's just a great reflection that I a normal guy, much like other normal men and women, have these this sense of intuition and right and wrong and clarity and confusion that we could all come to these answers with. But I thought that.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, no, I mean, I let's expand on that for a second, though, because that is a good point. Because even without it, the extended education, without the doing it as a career, all those things, you can just choose to show up as a better human. You can seek the knowledge, you can you know, you have your intuition, you have all those things. So I mean, I think that's a great point, that it can be learned. There has to be a willingness to want to learn it. So on that, I agree. We do appreciate your time, but I would like to know where you found and yes.

 

Case Kenny:
Now I'll get there eventually. I've got a couple more things. I know a.

 

Dr. Liz:
Couple more things.

 

Case Kenny:
I appreciate that. No, it's just case that Kenny on Instagram, if I Katz's new mindset to this new mindset, who dis I've got a bunch of journals. I wrote a book called That's Both of You that's available on there as well. But in the case I can and Instagram's the best, the best place to get notified of everything I'm passionate about and won't stop talking about it. So thank you.

 

Dr. Liz:
Well, thanks again. Case. I really do appreciate you coming to hang out and and your insights and that you are putting it out in a way that is just so digestible and absorbable and thank you for the efforts in that so genuinely Thank you.

 

Case Kenny:
Appreciate that.

 

Dr. Liz:
Thanks again, Case for being a nice guy in a good way, and thank you all for hanging out on relatable relationships. Unfiltered. Make sure to subscribe to our YouTube channels, sign up for my newsletter and find me on Instagram at Dr. Elizabeth Fedrick. This is relatable relationships unfiltered.