Relatable podcast 

Dr. Liz:
Hey, welcome to Relatable relationships unfiltered. Should I stay or should I go? In most relationships, this question arises at some point. But this decision can be so hard to make. Hanging out with me today is Cindy Sibert, certified Divorce and Relationship Decision Coach. She's giving us some helpful tips on how to make this decision. This is relatable. Relationships unfiltered. Hey, Cindy.

 

Cindy Stibbard:
Hi, Liz. How are you?

 

Dr. Liz:
Good. How have you been? And you?

 

Cindy Stibbard:
Yeah. It's so good to see you, too. You know, I think it's been a while since we've been, like, live together. I mean, I feel like I see you every day, but.

 

Dr. Liz:
I know, right? Yes, I know. We are connected on the daily, but it has been a while since we have chatted. And you have had a lot going on in your life. And yeah, my heart goes out to you for sure with with all of that has been going on. So I I'm grateful for you making the time to be here.

 

Cindy Stibbard:
Thank you. Yeah, there's, there's, there's a lot. And I feel like life just kind of throws things at you. And you don't know why sometimes. And my personality is to figure out, like, what is it that the universe is trying to teach me through all the hard things? And what can I. What can I do? That's, you know, for the greater good from every hard experience that I have.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah. Yeah. That's a beautiful way to look at it. Probably took a lot of work to get there, to be able to kind of shift your mindset to that. Even the topic that we're talking about today of should I stay or should I go when it comes to divorce can be really hard to have the perspective of, you know, is the universe sending me in a different direction? Is this door closing? Because there's something else out there, something for me to learn, you know, something for me to grow through with this. Not an easy way to look at pain.

 

Cindy Stibbard:
No, no. And I think divorce is it's such that hard topic. You know, it's it's one of those things I find that especially if you're not dealing with a really abusive situation or there hasn't been one defining factor that has happened that really makes you question whether you should stay or go. But when you simply are, you have that feeling in your heart like, is this still my forever person? Like, are they still meant for me? They're a great person, but I don't feel that that connected anymore. And I think that is the hardest place to be. But it is so common for so many people.

 

Dr. Liz:
For so many people. And so often I you know, clients ask me that question and then I dealt with that directly. And that was my exact situation. And it came up multiple times in my marriage. I was married for 17 years and, you know, we separated twice before the third time, which was divorce. But that was the question that kept coming up, because even to this day, he's my best friend. He is a wonderful, beautiful human who I wish with all of my heart I could have spent the rest of my life with. But that is where it gets really complicated because, like I knew I knew that it wasn't in alignment with what I needed or wanted out of a relationship. And so to your point, when there's not this big overt reason to leave, you know, we get really influenced by the societal messages, by the religious shaming, by our kids. Finances are so many reasons.

 

Cindy Stibbard:
Oh, my gosh. I know. And I think that society gives us this. One defining factor of success is whether if your marriage stays together forever, Right? Like how many people can say, Oh, yeah, we've been married for 50, 50 years, 55 years, 60 years? Like this is supposed to be a measure of success when sometimes your spouse is the person that you're telling your biggest lies to, you know, the person that you are connecting with or the person that you really despise on the inside. But on the outside you have this societal expectation that longevity is the determining factor of success. But when you look at your situation, that takes incredible amount of self reflection and self-respect and self-love to look beyond. You know, this is a great person, but is this really my person and are we compatible for the long term together? Because a lot of people will just stay in that complacent, kind of comfortable place knowing that they're not feeling fully aligned, their heart isn't really connected. There's a lot of things that just aren't there. I'm feeling it with this person, but because they are, there's nothing defining where they stay. And it takes a lot of courage to be able to say, You know what, You're amazing. I love you as a person, but you're just not my person.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, absolutely. And there are the various reasons and I really try to normalize and to have empathy for all of the reasons that people stay, even when their heart is telling them to go. So whether it is children, I know for me early on, the thought of not tucking my kid in Tibet every night was like it was unbearable. And so that felt like not even an option. And then, of course, financial, when you're used to maybe one person working outside the home or having a dual income, your lifestyle gets used to it. What are some common things that you see where people might choose to stay or stay longer than you know is maybe in their best interest? However, we're looking at that, but are are really valid reasons.

 

Cindy Stibbard:
Yeah, I think you you said two of them. The biggest ones, you know, financial and the kids. I think those are the big the two big ones that people stay for a lot of reasons that are, you know, maybe a little bit self-serving because we don't want to have any time loss with our children, and especially if we've got this comfortable lifestyle and we aren't working the one that's the breadwinner, we get scared of what that that's going to look like. I mean, for my own situation, that was exactly me. I couldn't imagine a day without my kids. And when I was wanting to leave my spouse, it never even occurred to me. And I don't actually know why. It never occurred to me that he would want the kids, you know, more than he are. He already had them. I was like 98% caregiver. I never thought in my mind that he would want 50% the time. Well, he did. And at first it was like literally my arms felt like they're being ripped off of my body. You know, that physical pain of like, don't take my kids from me. I don't know who I am without them because I was a stay at home mom for so long. Such a valid reason. But looking at ourselves, like looking at my childhood, I grew up with a dad that wasn't around very often and I know that's affected me now and how I relate to men and relationships, and I just didn't want that to be part of their adulthood in their childhood. So if he was able and capable as much as I wanted them because I didn't know what else to do without them, I know that I needed to allow them that opportunity to have a dad in their life, you know? Then we had the course of finances, which are always super scary, but we can always figure that part out. You know, I think sometimes a lot of people don't realize that in that end, divorce, we do split a lot of the assets. You're not necessarily walking away with nothing. Just because you don't earn anything doesn't mean you're going to be left with anything. Yes, there's a lot layers to that. And it might look less than what you have now. That doesn't mean that you can't live and survive on something and then get yourself started. But the other thing I see that's common for people, and especially my clients right now in my weekly support group is they say because they have this sort of friendship and this like this relationship with their spouse, it's not all terrible. They get they still get along and they still do the things. They still, you know, take the kids to activities he helps around the house. And so there's this sort of confusion of but we still kind of like get along. We're kind of a good partnership, but I just don't, like, love them anymore. I just don't have that intimate spark. I just feel like there's something missing or when it comes down to conflict or really sharing how you feel, that's when you notice that we're super disconnected. But you know, the day to day is good. And so you kind of feel like, Oh, well, maybe it's really not that bad, right? We sell ourselves on that.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah. And sometimes we have to, you know, and that is like that cognitive dissonance. And then when you think about also the support system that you may be have or don't have, I think that that can become incredibly influential as well. I know for me with one of the first, maybe the first and second, probably the first time we separated, my dad informed me that I was no better than a murderer for not staying in my relationship. And then my mom told me she would, you know, refuse to talk to me about it because, like, blasphemy. So for me, I was like, holy shit. I was, you know, like pretty young at that point, probably in my mid-twenties ish. The first time we had this conversation of like, should we separate? And I was a stay at home mom as well. And so for the people who I would have counted on to show up for me to shame me in such horrific ways, it was like, Of course I'm not going to leave, you know, Of course I guess let's let's figure this out. And I know of a lot of clients who say the same thing, like their families, that it's it's a shameful thing. It's an embarrassing thing. And when their support system is further exacerbating that shame.

 

Cindy Stibbard:
Yeah.

 

Dr. Liz:
Like we're just, you know, a lot of us a lot of us codependence are just trying to please those around us.

 

Cindy Stibbard:
Yeah, I think that that's a huge one as well, as well as the shameful punishment that you might be able to that you might receive on the spouses side. You know, in my situation, my ex spouse and his family were so ashamed that, you know, that that a marriage failed, that the walls went up, the financial retaliated and started happening was like, how dare you do this to our family? Although we know all this, all the shit that you've been through. But how how dare you do this to our family? So there's there definitely is that for sure. And, and having your support system, knowing that what you feel in your heart is what's right for you. And oftentimes when we do something like make a big decision for ourselves, like divorce, what we see surface in others isn't really necessarily about us in our decision, right? It's about what is that triggering in them? All those fears are coming to the surface. Maybe they are struggling in their marriage to and God. They wish they had the courage to be able to leave, but they don't. You know, they're so much more than beyond just our own decision.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah. And, you know, the irony of that is that when I then finally decided so, you know, we were together for 17 years, then I decided to leave. My mom then made the decision about six months later to then divorce my dad. So there was a lot as to your point. Yeah, the rejection. And it's just like, yes, it's so ridiculous. And of course, well, you know, whatever. I can have grace for whatever she was going through that you know, when she couldn't talk to me about it. But yeah, to your point, like, I knew obviously I grew up as their child. I knew they weren't happy. They were never happy along the way. And I think that for her to feel like it wasn't an option, there was a lot of projection there.

 

Cindy Stibbard:
And we.

 

Dr. Liz:
See that. We see that with friends or loved ones. Yeah, when they're not happy or content and they feel like they have no way out because that's one of the most common things I hear. I feel trapped. I feel stuck. Yeah. I assume you hear that a lot with your clients.

 

Cindy Stibbard:
A lot at Totally a lot. And I think there's a difference between like being physically, like financially stuck. I mean, that's a thing, right? When you really don't know what you can do financially and how you can get out versus I'm emotionally stuck because I'm just too scared to make this decision. You know, there is there is the real stuckness and then there is one more year to stuck because you're choosing to also be there. You know, like I think we forget that you're still choosing not choosing is still choosing. You're still choosing to be in the situation and you're choosing to stay stuck. And that's it for emotional reasons. And having those conversations with our with our partner, I think is is a really where we need to start getting better at this because sometimes I find that it is that actual conversation. I will have people work with me up to the point of making the decision and coaching them right through to have the talk with their with their spouse. And it's that talk that cracks the egg open to this vulnerability piece that like, you know what, we've decided to to really invest and work it out. You know, they were really shocked. They didn't want to lose the marriage. Now they want to make the changes. And I know that you're thinking, oh, my God, Like I thought that, too. Like, now you want to make the changes now that you know, I'm serious. But in certain situations, sometimes it does take that sort of let's hit rock bottom so we can start to rebuild back up again. And if there's still some love there, you know, if there's still that capacity for connection, then I often suggest to give it a shot because there is always a chance that you can go, you can go at any time. But if you think that there is a possibility that you could reconnect and really create that foundation that, you know, I've been struggling to create or that got rocky, then give it a shot. Because I think that the last thing you want to do is leave a situation and think that, you know, oh, I could have tried harder or I could have I could have done that. You really don't want to leave any stone unturned. I mean, that being said, don't stay in it forever. Make sure you take the steps. But I think sometimes it's those really hard conversations of expressing each other's needs that we just don't do because of the way that we receive each other in conflict. And so right there, it creates so much resentment and resistance.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, and I love that you're bringing that up because that's a great point, that if you've made a decision like I, it's time to go. I need to go. And you have that conversation and your partner says like, No, I don't. I don't want to lose this. I don't like let's talk about change. Let's talk about what needs to happen. I 100% agree with you. If if there is even like a piece of hope there for you. Yeah, give it a try. And the questions that I usually ask when a client because I'm sure you and I both have clients who come in and do this frequently, you know, like, okay, I'm having the conversation. Then they come back in next time and it's like, okay, so we're going to try again and then, okay, great. But some of the things that I ask are, have you so especially if maybe they say they don't have a romantic connection anymore, I'll ask, have you had a romantic connection before? Because some people get in, get in marriages and relationships and they did it. They got in for other reasons. Right. And I know judgment. So I ask, have you had that before so that we actually know we're not like trying to build chemistry out of thin air, which is not a thing, unfortunately. And then also, what have you guys talked about as the tangible steps towards change? So just saying like, I'm going to show up better for you, you know, from now on I'm going to show a better what the hell does that mean, Right? Look like, what's the time frame? And so those are the things that I'm like, all for when people say no, let's try to work it out. But what are we actually doing to try to work it out?

 

Cindy Stibbard:
Yes. And I that's that that's the thing is the specifics like to be able to express your needs. Like I need you to help me more or I need you to, you know, pour more love into me. Well, what does that mean exactly? Like give your partner a chance to shine for you by saying to them exactly what you need. And I'm not saying that you want them to change their personality. You know, I want you to stop being a certain way and start being a whole different way. But it comes down to if you want them to pour more love and attention into you, what does that look like? Does that mean more texts during the day? Does that mean more hugs and kisses when they get home from work? Does that mean more like quality time and turn your TV off at night? Does that mean sex on a more regular basis? Like what specifically does that look like for you? Because I think we often assume that our partners should know, even after years of being together. Well, they should just know how to love me, you know, They should know what I want. They should know, you know, what I need. But we don't we really don't. Unless we can say it honestly out loud. And I think even saying it honestly out loud, it allows them a chance to be successful. And then the connection that can happen with that is so awesome.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's twofold because I think, first of all, a lot of us don't even know our needs. We don't know our specific needs, so let alone how to express that. We also weren't taught how to express that in childhood. So we're like, okay, we kind of know what we want, kind of don't. Also, just going through the motions that don't put thought into it. So I think that's the first. What I really suggest for clients is like, sit down and identify your needs, wants and boundaries, whether you're in a relationship, whether you're dating, really know what that is so that you're able to communicate it. Yeah, but then the other piece of that is like a lot of couples don't talk like they don't they talk like, you know, what do you have for dinner? Yeah, but they're not getting very deep. We maybe at all or very like, hardly ever.

 

Cindy Stibbard:
Yeah. Oh my gosh. Yeah. They don't really. And because they are uncomfortable, it's maybe vulnerable that you haven't done that before because maybe you started this relationship really early in young when you weren't really doing that. And what I think is beautiful about a relationship after divorce is that you learn all these things to do to start right away. In my partner who had recently passed, I feel like it was like a clean slate. It was like for both of us. We knew right from the beginning, okay, we are going to do things totally differently. So we had conversations that we normally wouldn't have. We talked about, you know, our sex more than we had ever talked about it with someone else before. And we really started to do those things that allowed us to build better connection and then address it, address things when they come up as they happened, instead of waiting long and not really going deep into it. Because I think when you're in a you know, you're in a relationship with someone, whether you're starting fresh, whether you've been in it a long time or you're starting again, I think we have to look at I three different pieces. I look at foundational compatibility, meaning like, how do you guys feel about really big issues like monogamy and having kids like these are big black and white issues that are either deal breakers in a relationship because if you're not aligned on those on those things, then you know you're going to have trouble creating a future when you're already not aligned right. And then you have like willingness and capacity. You know, you could go through struggle with your with your partner and they could be super willing to change. I see this all the time. You wants to go to therapy or she wants to go to therapy and they want to do the change. But then you're not seeing the change happen. You know, they are so they're so open. But then the same problems come up again and again and again. And this to me, is only a reflection then of now their capacity to change because they could want to, but their capacity comes from actually doing the work. Are you doing the therapy are like not are you just reading the books and listening to the podcast? Are you actually doing the work to make the changes in yourself so that you can start to shed those patterns and show up differently, which I think sometimes it's the capacity piece that's missing and the, you know, maybe your partner just isn't really that interested in those changes or they don't have the emotional capacity to do it. And at that point, it's almost like information gathering for you to look at that and think, okay, they actually can't give me what I need. They aren't capable of doing it. Am I okay with this and can I continue this relationship or is this a chance for me to look at, you know, is it is it a time to end it? Because there's such a difference between wanting to change and actually being able to do it.

 

Dr. Liz:
Right? Yeah. To actually putting in the work to practice the behavior change. That is, you know, a lot of the work is the emotional regulation. It's it's learning the skills to communicate the conflict resolution to show up differently. But then when we get triggered or we get overwhelmed or we had a hard day at work, when it just reverts back to what it was and then, well, sorry, I was stressed. Yeah. Okay. I can hold space for some of that because I certainly end up in that boat time to time. But also that is not demonstrating change if you are if you are showing that you can be kinder and more compassionate, as long as everything's going fine, as long as you're not triggered, as long as you're not stressed out, like that's not life. And so that's not that's not really demonstrating change. It's just demonstrating that when things are going smoothly, you can also you go smoothly.

 

Cindy Stibbard:
Yeah. Yeah. And then re triggering those those same behaviors. Oh, sorry, I did it again. I won't do it again. And then of course it happens again in stress. So it's noticing like those things aren't actually changing. And so what are you willing to to tolerate? You know, this is then comes down to the ball's in your court a lot of the times because if you can take a look at your relationship and you know what you want, what you want, you don't want what your needs are, can you communicate those? Can you be vulnerable? You know, now you can see where can your partner meet you here? And if they if they really can't do the level that you need, there's nothing wrong with telling them that you you want more or this relationship just has kind of run its course for you. Because one thing I see with with people all the time and I think especially women, I mean, I've only really heard a lot of this from women, but women feel that they're being grateful if they want more out of the relationship. Right. Like, oh, I feel so bad. We've created this life he provides for me or we have these. There's a lifestyle and we've got these kids and we he does all the things or she does. You know, I don't want to pigeonhole myself here, but sure, then they feel that why can't I just be grateful for that? But I think that you are grateful if you could look at your life and your situation and you can see what you've built, you can see all the good that you have You can look at your partner and look at all the ways that they're contributing, and you can be grateful for that. It's not that you're ungrateful, it's that you're unfulfilled in whatever capacity in your life is right now. And needing more doesn't necessarily mean more of something. It just means something else, something different. You know, you could shower me with all the money in the world. I'm still going to need your emotional connection more than that, you know? Right?

 

Dr. Liz:
Right. And I hear that. Yeah. So often that what is wrong with me that I can't just be content, that I can't just be happy in this. And often when I'm working with clients and we do their needs, wants and boundaries list, that is a big part of the portion of the needs because the needs being the non-negotiables. So in order to be fulfilled in a relationship, I need these five things. And if they were to create that and they kind of compare it to their the current, their current partner, and they can see like either they're not being met or, you know, most of them are being met, but not all of them. First of all, that gives them the space to then express that. But also they get to prioritize because maybe they're like, okay, the romantic connection is not there, so maybe I shouldn't be in this relationship. Maybe I should leave. But maybe the romantic connection is not actually highest on their priority list, right? You know, and so they're like, okay, it's actually these things keeping my family intact or the financial, the lifestyle. And I hear people say that frequently as well. And whatever your priority is is your prerogative. But if that's what you're choosing, then we got to figure out a way to come to acceptance of it, because then what happens is like, okay, these things are more important, so I don't want to leave, but I'm going to make sure my partner knows how miserable I am or I'm going to just sit in my misery day in and day out. And that's not really an option. It's not a sustainable option, which I mean, maybe then that's a good opportunity to reassess your list if if you're miserable and you're saying, you know, those things are most important to you.

 

Cindy Stibbard:
Yeah. And then you're not really you're not really living into those needs. You're allowing yourself to not have those needs being met by staying in that situation and allowing yourself to be miserable. Right. I think sometimes we need to put ourselves in our own hands. And you're right. Really assess those needs. Be really clear about those. And are those needs that your partner is capable of giving you? Yeah.

 

Dr. Liz:
Great point. Yeah. So when a new client comes or a client reaches out and they're in this limbo stage, probably been there for quite some time. Yeah. How do you start that process with them? What are the first couple meetings with them looking like and kind of how do you take them along that journey?

 

Cindy Stibbard:
Yeah, so typically what I call them my program is called the decision. And so there's two elements to it. We work one on one as well as we have a weekly group, because I think people in this position, especially when they're in contemplation, very rarely reach out to anybody else and think that they're the only one who's going through this. And it's like, I can't talk to anybody about this because I don't want anyone to know, first of all. And no one's really going to understand what I'm going through. It's different. So I try to give them those two containers of support because I think there's such positive and empowerment in group. But then one on one we can really dive into what's truly what are your where each really struggling, what's holding you back. And we start from the very basic bare minimum, like what is your marriage and divorce beliefs story? How did you grow up? What are relationships look like for you? Was divorce on the table? Off the table? Like how was that treated? And then look at from there, you know, what are your core values? We really get basic about your values and are you living into your values? Because I think sometimes you think, Oh, I've done the value exercise, I know what my values are, but are you do you think you know your values or are you actually living into your values? Because I think that a lot of times there can be this disconnect is I think I value family. Yet I have a very dysfunctional relationship with my family and I like spending time with them, you know, So it's sort of like.

 

Dr. Liz:
It's the dissonance.

 

Cindy Stibbard:
Yeah, absolutely. And it's okay to be radically honest with yourself and be like, actually, family is not value of mine, but this is more of a value. And just to get really clear on what it is that you truly want and are those aligned with your partner, you know, they don't have to be exactly the same. But I do think that the core fundamental foundational values need to be relatively similar so that you can build something on it. You know, you can't you can't build something sustainable on sand, Right? Yeah. And then we look at things like, you know, what are the signs of our settling in a relationship? You know, like, are you constantly having to negotiate yourself why you're staying Like, this is this is fine as it is. It's not going to get any better. I can make this work like, you know, I should be grateful for what I have, all those kinds of things. And really starting to dig, you know, yourself as an individual. I think a lot of the times we look at if we're feeling like we're lacking that independence factor for a lot of us, including myself, when before I was you know, when I was married to, I felt like I had to escape and not be in this relationship in order to find my own identity and to be living into who I am. But you don't have to escape your relationship to have more of self ness in your relationship. You just have to figure out how can I more live into who I am and be my authentic self while still in this relationship.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, such beautiful work to do while you're in the relationship, right? Because then whether you stay or whether you go, that's a whole new you to take into either environment.

 

Cindy Stibbard:
Yeah. And it's all about information gathering and collecting as you go and you, you do this work on yourself. How is this being communicated and received from by your partner? You know, are they allowing you this safe space for you to grow and learn and bring these new strategies to the table so that you can connect? Or are they saying, whoa, like this is not for me, this is for you and then slowly you can start to see which path am I going because of? Do I want to be with someone who's open to how I'm changing and how I want us to change? Or am I met with resistance in someone who doesn't want to embrace this change? And so the more we kind of dig into ourselves, the more we actually know what we want. And you know, the more we can communicate that I teach, I teach people how to communicate a little bit, a little bit better with less confrontation, less emotion, a bit more, you know, structured and direct about their needs and how how to present that in a way that isn't defensive and can put the walls up between you. So typically we go through a 12 week program, 12 week process of really getting to the crux of, you know, is my relationship too good to leave or not good enough to stay? And so I don't come at it from a position either way. It's really about, you know, equipping them with as much knowledge and empowerment so they can look inside themselves and really assess their own situation so they can choose whether their relationship is, you know, sustainable or repairable even. There's things that we can do right now to make it see if we can survive or I'm separation is a better path for me. I do feel that that is where I need to go. And so how do I go down that path in a in a gentler, more amicable, more respectful way?

 

Dr. Liz:
Right. In that? I think that that's one of the most important things that I really try to work with my clients on, is that there is the ability to have a healthy breakup. There is the ability to have a conscious decoupling that there's, you know, this intentionality in. We're making this decision and it doesn't they don't it doesn't always have to be messy. It doesn't always have to be dirty. And what a powerful thing if you do have kids involved, what a powerful thing when it's not. And so I know that there's so much complexity in that. And I try not to compare our use my situation as the baseline because like most people are not best friends with their ex-spouse. And I completely understand that. But I also think would be right. I do think there is a continuum, though, of okay, we aren't best friends, but we can function, we can coexist, we can show up to events that for our kids, you know, we can do these things and it doesn't there doesn't have to be hatred involved. But I do think it does come down to, as you're describing, the way that the message is delivered and the way you conduct yourself in that process.

 

Cindy Stibbard:
Oh, my gosh, 100%. Like if we go into this these conversations with like guns blazing, you know, in our boxing gloves on, ready to defend ourselves and explain all the ways we've already explained million times about why we're unhappy. You know, we just get to the same place we've always gotten. And that's what's met with a wall of resistance. But I think that we have to really go in remembering that we are not at the same place as the as our spouse. We are about to have a really hard conversation that we have been thinking about for a very long time. And as if you're a woman, I think like most of us, we have stewed over this and overplayed this and overthought this and role played this in her mind for months, maybe even years. So we've almost processed it in a way, grieved the loss of what could be if you were to to leave your marriage where your spouse is potentially hearing this for the first time. Yes. They've like, well, maybe I should say, listening to this for the first time, they probably heard it. They probably heard your unhappiness a number of times. You might have used the word divorce. You might have gone down that path. But sitting down and actually having the real conversation, they might be hearing you for the first time. And they're not necessarily going to meet you there. And so if you know that this is going to be a bit of a shock likely, but I can be prepared to hold space for that instead of flee. I think a lot of times in these situations we express our feelings. They get so flooded with our emotions and our anger and the resentment that we've been carrying for so long. And then we flee the situation. It's like, okay, I'm out of here. Like you'd take care of you or someone's moving out. And I think in that moment is when you actually have to hold space for just being not necessarily have to just had to talk about it the whole time. But the fleeing part is what I think creates that fear of Now what's next is their lawyer is going to be involved. Am I losing my house? Like what's happening to the kids? But knowing that this is hard, this is not going to be fun. I know that this hurts, that I'm here to do this with you instead of against you so that we can do what's best for our kids. You know, through all.

 

Dr. Liz:
Of this and I think that empathy and validation are such powerful tools to use if you are the one delivering this message. And a lot of people, there's it's like they need the resentment to drive them to do it right. They need that as a motivator. But if you can work through that and you can come to a place of I'm going to make this decision because it's what's best for me and I can understand that this decision is really going to hurt them for for whatever reason. If they disappoint them, it's going to they're going to be worried about money or lifestyle or rejection, whatever that is. Either way, it's going to have an emotional impact on that other person. And if you can hold space for that, as you're suggesting, if you can even validate that, like I know how hard this is, I know how much this is hurting you, that is a really powerful response versus, well, I've told you a thousand fucking times that, you know, blah, blah, blah and such a different delivery.

 

Cindy Stibbard:
Yes. And I think that's what the power is. And in doing the work to prepare for this conversation, because we can really go into like what are all the fears that you have around how this is going to be received? How do you expect this to come across? What are you anticipating the response is going to be? And then really sort of creating, okay, if this is going to happen, I'm going to feel this, how am I going to bring myself down in that moment of feeling really triggered? What can I do? And I work so much with my clients on like getting them grounded for that conversation, like really working through those emotions that they can almost have processed a lot of that fear based thinking and that anticipatory response bit before they get into it. So they know it's going to come, but I know what I'm going to do to hold space for that and be ready for it. And I know what not to do in a situation. And when you're having those conversations, I always say like the biggest thing, just don't get defensive. Don't defend yourself, just listen, just listen, validate, empathize, repeat back to them. I know this is so hard to hear. I know this is it hurts you. This is never something I anticipated for us either, you know? And I think the more that we can just listen, the better off the other party can be in terms of realizing that you're not out to get them, you're not out to destroy them, You're not really here to hurt them, although you are. But at the same time, when I hear clients say to me, but I don't want to hurt them, I say, Well, you're already hurting them by staying in a marriage that you don't love them anymore. Like, that's pretty hurtful, too. You know.

 

Dr. Liz:
I agree, because they're clearly not getting their needs met either. If that disconnect exists and the other suggest suggestion I give for clients when they're having that hard conversation is that whatever the partner's response in response is in that moment, they're having a big emotional reaction. So they need an opportunity to also calm down. That might look like hours, that might look like days, maybe a couple of weeks, but to not just take whatever their response in the moment is when they've been put in the most horrific threat state possible, the biggest rejection, abandonment, all of those things that's going on, we can't take that response as this is what we're going to move forward with. And I personally that I mean, my ex's response when I told him he was like, No, we're not going to be friends. I'm not going to be in your life. You can't have your cake and eat it, too. Like that's a thing. And he held on to that for probably a couple of weeks. I did a lot of breaking down in that time because I'm like, you know, he he is my family, but that's not what he's stuck with. He he needed to be able to work through those feelings and work through the emotions. He needed to get his prefrontal cortex back online to be able to be logical to say, okay, what's best for our kid, what's best for him? Even with that, I'm his family too, you know? So that is just kind of my suggestion is that whatever their big emotional responses, let them have it like let them have that response. Let them have those feelings. That doesn't have to be the foundation for how you move forward.

 

Cindy Stibbard:
No, absolutely. 100%. And do the work to prepare because it's always I mean, I guess it's not that surprising. But when we decide to get divorced and we have the conversation, so many of us just rush right into next steps without really looking at, okay, what is how does this even work? Like, what are we going to do? Like, getting a lawyer is not necessarily the first thing you're supposed to do in this situation. You know, there's lots of other pieces that you can start to put together and work through prior to going down that typical antiquated path that we all know too well. It doesn't work very well. So get yourself really prepared in terms of what does this potentially look like and slow down. There's so many people I see and I'm going to say men for a second because they seem to want this done tickety boo, right? It's like, just have the conversation first, let the dust settle and then the next maybe conversation or second conversation have. Okay, here are my thoughts of what we can do next, because I feel like when you go in guns blazing, you're so ready to get this done and move on, especially if maybe there's someone waiting in the wings where you are going to sabotage any success you have because you're just trying to force and rush an issue that you're ready for, but your spouse really isn't ready for. And so that's when you're met with resistance. When you have that first conversation, I always say to my clients, don't talk about what's next. Don't talk about, okay, are we going to mediation? Are we getting a lawyer who's going, What are you moving out? Don't talk about that right now. Just have the conversation in a loving, compassionate way that your marriage is coming to an end. Let's just first of all, take that piece and digest it and then figure out what you're going to do with it.

 

Dr. Liz:
I love that I led so wise and so important to just sit in those emotions first before you're trying to make these huge, life altering decisions. When you're in an emotional state does not make sense at all. Is there verbiage that you suggest around? Obviously, it's going to look different for everyone. Everyone has different circumstances. But for that initial hard conversation, what are a couple of things you suggest to be said during that time?

 

Cindy Stibbard:
Yeah, I do give my clients like a two. They've 20 different like sentence starters and scripts that they can use, okay, forms of what they can say. And so we practice them and we figure out, you know, which ones sound best to you and how it comes across. One wanted you to be natural, but a lot of them do come with, you know, I'm I'm sorry to hurt you. This is just a healthier choice for me. I feel that divorce is separation and is a healthy option for me. It's something that I feel I need to do. And I know that this this might come as a shock. I know that this isn't what you want. I. I never meant to hurt you. I don't feel that. I never imagined myself getting to this place either. And I want to be. I want you to know that I'm here for you. And even things like I want you to know how much I've appreciated our life together, how much I respect you as a co-parent, how much I want to make sure that we can navigate this the best for the kids, you know, and just less about talking. And because once you say it, it'll be a lot of, you know, sitting in there just listening and responding and validating. I know this hurts. I know this is hard to hear. It's so hard for me to say this to you. I know this is going to change things, You know, instead of trying to be like, well, but we can do this, but we can do that, but let's make sure to do this. Just validate and listen. And sometimes we can get so triggered in those situations, especially when we know our spouse is going to turn around and say, Well, you're ruining the family and this is all your fault, and I can't believe you're doing this to us. That's when you just have to try your best not to feel threatened and say, This is hard for me, too. Yeah, this is this is really hard for me, too.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah. And as hard as it is trying not to get caught up in over explaining, because the more words you use, the more ammo you're giving away and the more and it's not helpful because don't they don't care what the explanation is. They're hurting. And so doing your best. Exactly like you're saying, grounding, trying to say is regulated as possible and using validation versus explaining. Because when you're getting these daggers thrown at you, you want know, especially if they're about your character or about what you're doing to your children or horrific things like that. Of course, the first instinct is to defend yourself, is to explain it, to try to make sense of it. But they're not going to be able to hear that anyway. So, yeah, find out the timer place for that.

 

Cindy Stibbard:
No. And when we are 100% responsible for how we react. So let's just make sure that we are holding space for that. You know, we this is not your fault. You are you aren't getting a divorce necessarily, because it's all your fault. You did take to to get to this place. It took two to to get your relationship to a place where it's unhappy and it's not working anyways. But it isn't time at all to be pointing fingers and rehashing all the ways that you wronged each other. And this is why you're here. Yeah.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah. When I was going through, when I was getting prepared to what I know, I guess I had had the conversation and so we were kind of going through that process and I had said to a friend, like, I'm just going to tell my kid that I hadn't told my son yet. And I said, I'm just going to tell him like it was my choice 100% on me. And and my friend was like, That's not a great idea. It's not 100% on you. And why would you do that to your relationship with your son when it's not all on you? And I felt like that was really good feedback of, yeah, I don't nobody needs to take blame. Like when you're telling your kids like, it doesn't need to be a blame thing. It just needs to be. This is what's going on. And also them being prepared to hold a whole lot of space for validating your child's experience. But fingers don't have to be pointed for those conversations either. Even if for me I was sitting in so much guilt that like, I was like, I'll take it all on. Like I, you know.

 

Cindy Stibbard:
Yeah, as normal as we do, right As we do. Yeah.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah. Not beneficial.

 

Cindy Stibbard:
No. And I think too, you know, we can only do so much on our side if we set ourselves up to be as successful as we possibly can. It still doesn't guarantee that this is going to go smoothly. It still doesn't guarantee that the other side is going to all of a sudden, you know, come to meet you amicably in the center and you're going to be able to have these conversations. You still may never get past that whole taking the blame. And this is all your fault. I mean, I'm five and a half years out and my ex-husband is still you've ruined our lives. This was all your fault. So it will like I now just accept that he will never change, which is also why I'm here.

 

Dr. Liz:
You know, that's their confirmation.

 

Cindy Stibbard:
It's just confirmation kind of like I do my best to hold, to bring myself my best self to the conversation, to not get defensive and throw it back at him. You know, the mudslinging can start, which I was very guilty of doing at the beginning, because I was like, How could you not see this is also your fault, you know, and all those ways. But you can't change someone. You can only change you. So if you are showing up in a in a conversation or in a hard spot, know that it's about you feeling good. It's about you walking away from that thinking, Wow, like I really held my ground there. I was really compassionate. I was really understanding. It didn't get where I wanted, but I feel good about how I showed up.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, which is so important and such a powerful moment. Realization when when you can be proud of how you behaved, how you reacted.

 

Cindy Stibbard:
Yeah.

 

Dr. Liz:
Cindy, where can people find you? I appreciate so much your time and your insights and your knowledge. Where can you be found online? Social media?

 

Cindy Stibbard:
Yes, my social media is at divorce redefined. Soon it will be. I'm switching over. I'm doing a rebranding, so just be my name out, Cindy Stafford very soon. And my website be called The Strength to Thrive Through Life, Love and Divorce. And I really focus that website will be up in a little bit. But Instagram is kind of where I hang out the most.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yes, it is. And that is how you and I have become friends and I appreciate your content and your insights as always. So thank you again for hanging out.

 

Cindy Stibbard:
Oh, I thank you, too. It's so great to see you. I was just thinking about my earlier today when we were I was thinking of coming on with you. I think when like you and I first met, we were both like, baby Instagram accounts. Yeah, that's important to each other. And like, Oh, my God. Like, look, look, look it. Now, look.

 

Dr. Liz:
I know.

 

Cindy Stibbard:
Look how much you've blown up. It's incredible. I'm so proud of you.

 

Dr. Liz:
Oh, well, thank you. Know, and you as well. And I know that that's the information that you give is just so valuable. And you just give it. And that's. I mean, such a kind heart. You have to do that, that you're just out here to help. And that's really apparent with the content you put out. So thank you for that.

 

Cindy Stibbard:
Thank you. Yeah, I think I think we both are.

 

Dr. Liz:
All right. Well, we will be in touch.

 

Cindy Stibbard:
Okay. Sounds good.

 

Dr. Liz:
You thanks again, Cindy, for giving us such valuable things to consider when making very difficult decisions. And thank you all for hanging out on relatable relationships, unfiltered. Make sure to subscribe to our YouTube channel. Sign up for my newsletter and find me on Instagram at Dr. Elizabeth Fedrick. This is relatable relationships, unfiltered.