Relatable podcast 

 

Dr. Liz:
Hey, welcome to relatable relationships. Unfiltered. In our relationships, we're faced with two options We can grow together or we can grow apart. And today I'm hanging out with. Oh, we didn't ask him his, um. The last name. Sorry.

 

Arron Muller:
Laura Everett.

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Dr. Liz:
Mueller or my.

 

Arron Muller:
Mother, Aaron Mueller. Yeah.

 

Dr. Liz:
Wait. Say it again.

 

Arron Muller:
Mueller.

 

Dr. Liz:
Mueller. Okay. Yeah. Sorry. Here we go again. Hey, welcome to relatable relationships, unfiltered. And our relationships. We're faced with two options. We can grow together or we can grow apart. Today, I'm hanging out with Aaron Mueller, mental health therapist, and we're exploring ways you and your partner can intentionally grow together. This is relatable relationships, unfiltered. Hello, Aaron. It is so.

 

Arron Muller:
Nice to see you.

 

Dr. Liz:
Officially, while virtually but meet you. We have been hanging out on Instagram for quite some time. So.

 

Arron Muller:
Absolutely. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for having me here.

 

Dr. Liz:
Absolutely. Yeah. It's great to meet you. So we are going to get into the topic of basically relational growth. A lot of couples, in my experience, they seem to believe that, you know, you can just kind of go through the motions and as long as nothing bad is happening, then that's good enough. But as you and I both know, there's a lot more that is required and that goes into a relationship actually thriving and growing together. What is your experience when it when it comes to that, like the growth of a couple?

 

Arron Muller:
Well, in my experience, I well, and I see the opposite when they don't grow together, what happens? I think it's important to be intentional about sharing what direction you want to go in as a couple and separately. So individual goals. You know, for my wife and I, we talk a lot about what we want to do individually and we talk about what we want to do together as a couple and as a family. And I think if people are intentional about that and keep that open dialog, it there's no mystery. There's no kind of confusion about what direction I'm trying to grow in. And it may not be the same direction that my partner is trying to go, but at least is understanding. And there's kind of like, okay, well that's, you know, that's great. And, you know, encouragement and checking in. How is that going for you and things of that nature? We all can benefit from this support for sure.

 

Dr. Liz:
And when I'm even thinking so, like backing it up, I'm even thinking about like the dating phase and clients that I'm working with who are single and an activity I have a lot of my clients do is identifying their five needs, wants and boundaries. And part of that is like, what is your goals for yourself? Like, what do you envision for your future? Where do you want to be in five years, in ten years? And I think that a lot of people don't have those conversations, like in the dating phase, and so then they end up in a committed relationship and kind of like you said, you know, maybe the direction is not the same path, which is okay. But when you're kind of caught off guard by that, that can create a bit of a bit of an issue if that's not discussed prior.

 

Arron Muller:
Absolutely. And, you know, just hearing you say that, it makes you think about what if you're not aware for yourself about what you want and how can you communicate that to someone else if you're not in tune in alignment in terms of the vision of where you want to go? So I feel like there's a sense of self in a sense of just like knowing where you want to go so that you can communicate that to someone else. So I think the biggest thing is how like, where am I in this process? Where am I in my life in terms of where I am now and where I want to go? So I feel like to be a well partner. You have to be kind of well yourself. And I do that a lot in terms of working on my couples. So definitely encourage individual counseling as well as couples counseling.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, no, and that's a great point, is that and I, I am frequently saying that like if let's say we're working with a couple and there's ongoing issues and one of them is getting individual help, but the other isn't, it's really hard to repair, as you are suggesting, if like we don't have our own self awareness, understanding of where where we've been, where we want to go, where we're at right now. How do you suggest that whether if you're working with like an individual client or if you're working with a couple and you're like, Hey, guys, like get clear on who you are? What are some ways that you suggest somebody goes about even starting that process of not only either self awareness of like currently, but then also like projecting into the future?

 

Arron Muller:
Well, definitely, you know, encouraged whether it be not everybody wants to do therapy but some type of wellness, whether it be kind of journaling or some type of mindfulness to kind of become more centered and grounded in terms of where they are now because they may not be in a state of wellness. So I definitely kind of meet them where they are and kind of find out, you know, are you considering therapy right now or where you are? Where would you like to be in the future also? So kind of exploring those options first, because just saying you need to go to therapy may not be received well right away, but they slowly recognize, you know, this is maybe something that could be beneficial, beneficial to me. But I encourage a wellness that could be a variety of things. And pretty much if the person that the couple is coming to the counseling together is a pretty much an understanding, considering we've been through a couple of sessions that they want the relationship to work. So kind of exploring what would it take for the relationship to work? What what do you need to take for that to work? And then maybe, you know what? Maybe I do need to consider individual therapy or some type of wellness protocol.

Dr. Liz:
I sit with so many couples, I completely agree, but I sit with so many couples who, like, are so resistant to going to do their individual work. So whether, you know, we are such a culture, a busy that is our go to segment for everything. So whether it's because they don't have time or because of the resources or whatever the case, but I find that really unfortunate because I'm a huge believer that in order for us to really heal our relationship, we have to start by healing ourselves. And so when that is not taking place, when we don't have really true awareness of our relationship programing, why we're showing up in the, you know, the ways that we're showing up and what to do about it. Because we also see, you know, like triggers. So triggers are such a common thing in relationships. And until you do your own healing, the odds of you as a couple, just like learning a few communication skills and now all of a sudden you're not going to get triggered anymore. Not so likely.

 

Arron Muller:
Absolutely. And understanding where the root is, you know, I talk a lot about we see kind of the symptom, but where's the virus? Right. And I tell them that therapy is the antibiotic. Right. But we need to address it and explore it right where the where the virus is. And that's where we that's where the therapy comes in. Why why am I responding this way? Why do I yell? Why do I scream when you do this? Really unpacking that and the individual sessions can really help that person target one on one with no one else in the room. Really focus on that. And that may be generational and maybe something that happened in that past. And with that deeper understanding, they can show up better for themselves and for their partner.

 

Dr. Liz:
Right. I completely agree. When you're doing individual work, where do you start kind of that understanding what the root is and you know, what does that exploration look like for your client to even discover that?

 

Arron Muller:
And it's a more in-depth and intense process because, yeah, you know, weathered and they may be dealing with stuff currently, but we have to go back and I'm big on going back to childhood and I like that's where I start. I work a lot with children also. So I look at children behaviors and then I see adults and I see how it could this continues on, right? So I look at and allow them to explore. Tell me about your earliest experience. So tell me when you recall that or tell me how you grew up. My favorite question is tell me how you were in school. So that's, you know, I also work in schools, so I see a lot of children's behaviors. And, you know, you know, parents are not there to sit around your peers or how do you show up in those spaces?

Because oftentimes that's when a lot of things happen to 2 to 2 children, whether it be teasing, whether it be you or a star is just so many things happen in the school and of course, at home as well. But I definitely like to explore childhood.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, no, I agree. And that is so I started my career as a child and adolescent therapist and that's what I did for many, many years. And I transitioned into doing adult relationship work because of that, because I felt as I sat with child after child. But then, you know, we bring parents into that and we start talking with parents and we try to understand where their parenting style is coming from. And I began to realize that, like the power of helping parents really recognize their own childhood and how how the way that their parenting comes from what was role modeled from them comes from even a lot of parents don't realize, like your child can also trigger you and not just trigger you in the sense of like make you angry. Like, yes, absolutely. But they might kind of like rub up against some of your unprocessed trauma and your unhealed wounds or, you know, the way that they're acting might remind you of something from your childhood. And when parents don't have that awareness, they can't respond in the most effective way for their child because they're just responding out of like what they know in the moment versus where it's coming from.

 

Arron Muller:
Absolutely right. And they may see maybe maybe the relationship didn't work out with the other partner. Right. And they see the child have some of those similar traits. Yes. Right. And that can also respond negatively And the children receive that that energy.

Dr. Liz:
Absolutely. Absolutely. So when we're looking at growing together, so we're talking about like identifying, you know, goals together, I'm well, how do you like to have couples do that? Do you have a homework that you provide for them as they are starting to like, identify what what direction they want to go? And are they unified in that? Or do you have activities you do with them or, you know, what's your approach to that?

 

Arron Muller:
I keep it kind of very free flowing in terms of in terms of exploring, explore and where they want to get to, whether it be do we want to grow, do we want to learn how to communicate more? So I find different strategies to help them with that.

 

Dr. Liz:
Okay. Yeah, I really like the like regular check ins is something I talk about frequently. And so, you know, identifying sometimes even doing like where they're going to sit down and have like a business meeting together and they're going to talk about, you know, what are our personal five year goals, what are our five year goals as a family? But then to really have that documented somewhere, you know, whether it's they do a vision board or anything like that.

 

Arron Muller:
I think I have them create a list so I can't quote doing that kind of have them create a list of what are some of the ways you want to grow together, right? And then explore and then write down the barriers. I think there's power in writing things out. Oftentimes we keep things in our head, and just letting out on paper could be very therapeutic and makes it real often, you know, also is like, Wow, I didn't know I felt this way. I didn't know you felt that way. I didn't know you wanted that. So I encourage a lot of writing. Some of our couples that really don't really like the writing piece, but often they kind of push through the discomfort and and work through that. But definitely, definitely writing out the goals is super, super important.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah. How do you see the, like, gender differences come up when you're doing couples work or even individual and you know, you're maybe working on relationship stuff when it comes to like maybe making a plan to grow together or starting to implement that. Do you, I assume, see a difference in how each gender kind of responds to that and also shows up to that?

 

Arron Muller:
You know, ironically, the usually the both participants are really excited and part of the process. I haven't seen a difference in that for Really? Yeah. Yeah.

 

Dr. Liz:
Okay. Yeah. Do you see a difference just in like, maybe personality wise, like somebody maybe is more invested or more interested or you feel like most your couples are equally invested.

 

Arron Muller:
But I will tell you this. The couples where there is kind of I would call it more trouble in paradise, as I call it, and there are kind of more more issues going on. They may be a little bit too collaboratively, less willing to want to do it or excited about doing it because there's just so many issues and they don't see this our what are we writing this out for? They don't really see it as as helpful, but couples where it's kind of like we are at a place now where we work through our stuff and it's like, okay, what's the next step? They're more excited about that.

 

Dr. Liz:
About that, Sure. Yeah. And I would say probably a lot of times the couples who are having that trouble in paradise, we maybe aren't starting with like, where do you see yourself in five years? Because that might include Divorce Court. So like, we maybe are not asking those questions, right?

 

Arron Muller:
But you know what? I also kind of kind of think about, well, we're in this space right now, but where do you want to see us? So so I kind of use it there, kind of frame it that way in terms of like, we're here now, but where do you see yourself enough? If one partner is not mentioning the other person? That says a lot, right? Yeah. If it's more about me and my growth and I want to be happy and all of that stuff so that assumes they indicated to me where they are. Mentor Yeah.

 

Dr. Liz:
And in, in terms of like the accountability piece of this, because this is where I also see sometimes it can get complex, like sometimes doing things like this, especially with couples who maybe have a hard time communicating or they do trigger each other frequently and then when they have follow up meetings about it, maybe it feels more like criticism versus feedback, or the accountability piece is really hard of hard to do in that. How do you suggest for couples to provide each other with accountability that is not criticism or does not come across as criticism.

 

Arron Muller:
But definitely talk about tone. You know, what comes up a lot is the only reason why you're doing it is because, you know, the session is coming up tomorrow. You wasn't thinking about it before. So it becomes kind of that Tom and Jerry kind of back and forth. But once they work through that, it's kind of keeping it as teamwork. We're doing this together, right? We're going through this process together. If we can kind of build that, build that camaraderie, build that friendship kind of resume that friendship again, kind of like this, we're doing this together. Yeah, I think that I think that's very helpful so that there is no oh, you know, why are you talking to me like this? Why are you treating me like a baby? I know what I have to do.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, right. Which I think I mean, it does come up that criticism, whether it's because of attachment styles or gender or. I mean, I do see that not to like stereotype, but I do see that often men feel like they are being maybe criticized by talking about hetero normative couples, but maybe the male often feels like he is being criticized. And then I can speak for not the whole female population, but women often tend to maybe have more of a they might come across as controlling and so on in these type of activities. I guess I'm thinking, yeah, so like she really wants to make sure it's done and it's done right and it's like we need to put time and effort into this where, you know, maybe he or whatever the other attachment style or personality type in it is just maybe not investing as much, you know, And like, where do you usually kind of take that? So, you know, they come in and tend to kind of tell on each other, Yes. What do you like? What do you do with that?

 

Arron Muller:
And you know what? I think that's such rich data because that lets me know what goes on in the house. That tells me what goes on during situations where it becomes mama bear and how is that working for you? You know, she I'm sure she might not want to be Papa bear. He doesn't want to be treated like a child. So really foreign. Okay. With this assignment, right? This is what you're supposed to do. We each had a role. Be honest. Which part did you fall short as opposed to not getting it done right for show decent, framing it differently. Where did you fall short? What occurred? Like to not let this assignment happen or to not achieve it? What could it have done differently? And I say collaboratively, what could you have done differently with it and kind of kind of model how to problem solve, Right. I think that's what we're doing, that, even if it doesn't work, I think is great when it doesn't work. Yeah, because now we're really seeing the dynamics and we could point it out and say, well, I'm sure if it happens for this assignment, it also happens with taking out the garbage and doing the laundry. Then we can really start to unpack some of those those those communication challenges.

 

Dr. Liz:
What are some of your favorite like go to communication skills, like especially in those type of situations where the message is clearly being lost each time? What do you kind of do, foundationally?

 

Arron Muller:
I you know, I love role play. I really love role play. And I really interestingly enough, I also do paradoxical intervention. So I'm like, continue arguing. Keep keep it going, you know, And then like, you know, keep it going. Like, I want you to be intentional about it because you do it so well. So this time do it, you know? And they're like, Wait, what? But no, no, continue to argue it, and I want you be intentional about it. Why and how do you feel doing it? Did you feel good? Really start to have them be aware and intentional about about what they're doing? And is it working for you? Because automatic response may be to yell and scream, but the therapist told you to ensure to do it, do it more and record it if you need to. Right. Do you have them.

 

Dr. Liz:
Record.

 

Arron Muller:
It? Yeah, absolutely. I want.

 

Dr. Liz:
Somebody.

 

Arron Muller:
I want to hear it and yeah, and they say, I can't believe this. This sounds so silly.

 

Dr. Liz:
When they listen to it back.

 

Arron Muller:
Yeah, when we played, they're in a session. Absolutely.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah. Yeah. I have so many clients that come in and they'll say, next time I'm. I'm just going to record it so that you can see and, and that's so funny to me. But like there is value in that. I mean, and I have historically talked to talk to them about even recording themselves and like how their what is their facial expression looking like what's their tone sounding like? Because I think a lot of people lack a lot of awareness around that.

 

Arron Muller:
Sort of.

 

Dr. Liz:
Awareness of awareness.

 

Arron Muller:
We don't. And my favorite line, another one of my favorite, like I said, we don't have a mirror in front of our faces, so we don't see our facial expressions, we don't hear our tones. So it really allows you to look at yourself.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, yeah. No, I agree. I that makes me laugh. Somebody I was dating recently, there was a like I was talking to him and we were recording something and it was like a pause in what we are doing. But so like, I was facing him. I was, I was talking to him, and then we played it back and I was like, Is that how I look at you? He's like this all the time. I'm like, Oh my gosh. You see? Like, you just don't even know.

 

Arron Muller:
You see?

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah. Oh, I saw you. I do.

 

Arron Muller:
Yeah.

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, for sure. So you like to do, like, use the role playing and or is there any like go to when it comes to you know, I statements or like do you have any skills that you're teaching them or it's mostly just looks like a organic shift as you go.

 

Arron Muller:
So it's so organic chef but also because every relationship is so different. I also allowed him to point out their own dynamics in terms of their behaviors and how they engage with each other. If it's accusatory statements, you know, helping them reframe and think of other ways to express their needs and wants, if it's a use of I statements, you know and other and just it just like relationships are so unique I can't even think that this one couple like two couples that I do the same absolute interventions with because you know and dated from session to session or things change situations change, but the behaviors are the same. And I point that out that life brings so many different changes. We often respond with very, you know, just few responses, you know, and sometimes they're not the most healthy.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, because a lot of times it's our adoptive child traits that we're responding with. So, you know, we learned in childhood how to respond to something in order to keep ourselves as safe as we can. And so that's often like you're saying. I mean, it's a pretty limited toolbox that a lot of us bring into our romantic relationships and a limited toolbox with often the wrong tools. And so we we are in these situations where, you know, it would it would take maybe a tweak or just a shift in the whole thing could have gone differently. But we don't know what we don't know. And that's one of the biggest things that I see with couples is that a lot of it just even boils down to increasing like awareness about themselves, about their partners, why their partner is responding that way, and then ways to respond different that a lot of times they say, like, I wouldn't even have thought about it through that lens. And it's true because, I mean, how can you I often say to them, like, you know, if they start to get kind of frustrated with themselves and I'm like, that's like me just showing up and saying, start speaking French. You've never set a date in your life. And like, you can't expect us to know it.

 

Arron Muller:
Just to know it, Right? Right. Yeah. So, so a lot of it is knowledge, right? A lot of it is insight. And, you know, I think oftentimes we get so couples get so fast and furious and in love really, really quick. And it's just so much fun and so exciting that we get kind of the superficial. We get kind of just like the face. We get kind of like outside to get to know the person. And then we get like the first layer to inside. And then when this becomes a little bit more in depth and intense, we get the second And thirdly, and it's like, Whoa, who are you? Right? But that's the person we need to know. That's the person we need to know.

 

Dr. Liz:
How long do you see that usually taking before people get that? I mean, obviously everyone is different, but do you have like a range of what you see at average?

 

Arron Muller:
Oh, I wish I had an average, but I feel like it varies so much and I feel like a situational too. Like I feel like situations. So bringing. Sure.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah like yeah. And things you can't predict so.

 

Arron Muller:
Things you can't predict. So adversity, tragedy, trauma, infidelity, those things bring out, you know, certain feelings and behaviors and and it's like, whoa, I wasn't expecting this, you know? But then it's like, but I'm still in love with you. So how do we work? How do we work through this? How do we deal with this? And then it's like, you don't and Iraq, the foundation, right. It shifts the dynamic. So like, how do we recreate a new relationship, Right? How do we and we're in this house and remodeling it, remodeling it. The foundation is there, but we are doing renovations. How do you work through those renovations?

 

Dr. Liz:
Sure. And sometimes I think it's even digging up the foundation. And I talked to a lot of my clients about that, Like, we need a layer. I just call it like laying bricks. Like we need to lay a whole new foundation because you're right, what they've been operating on, if they did it like show up as their authentic self and not because they were trying to be disingenuous, but because it's just what we do and whatever, you know, And like you're saying, if we're not faced with adversity, like there's we show up different in different situations. But sometimes I do believe it. It is truly like completely digging up the foundation and starting over. And that a lot of that is the discussion around back to what I was saying about the ones needs and boundaries. Sometimes I'll sit with a couple and I will have them do that list more so that we can say like if you were to pick a partner today, you know, you picked each other five, ten, 15 years ago. If you were to pick each other today, is, is this who you would be choosing And like our is there alignment and how you want to move forward? And then if there is, then we can redo the foundation. And if there's not that can sometimes be a bit of a moot point.

 

Arron Muller:
Right?

 

Dr. Liz:
You Yeah. And I think that that you know, figuring out like you're saying like remodeling and what how can we show up differently. I think one of the biggest things that really rocks each other's boat is the first time they see each other triggered. So the first time they see each other react to something in a with big emotions.

 

Arron Muller:
Absolutely.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah. What happened with.

 

Arron Muller:
That and how and this how do I respond? One, one. What am I internalizing right and.

 

Dr. Liz:
Right.

 

Arron Muller:
Who this is, who this reminds me of. Right? Is this a parent that I saw this same behavior? And how do I how do I deal with that? And if one person kind of takes a step back, right, then that may become the dynamic person hulk, as we call it. And then the other person retreats back. And what does that do to the relationship?

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah. And then kind of what are some things you even do with them to to try to change that dance? Like, you know, how what is the work that you do with them to even increase the awareness about the other the, you know, knowing that often it's that inner child trigger. Yeah. So like when we can start to look at it as they're feeling afraid, they're feeling triggered, we can show up differently with that. Do you explore it from like that angle as well?

 

Arron Muller:
I start from that angle and they may be up there. Maybe that opportunity where I saw the couple is like, okay, I'm going to meet with one person this week and get more and, you know, information about that and you know, how you feeling about whether to be stepping back or the whole experience? And what do you think when you respond like that? What does that do to to your partner and what does it do to you? So really and then having that that that intimate time to really explore that and then come back together and kind of discuss what went on during that process. And I think that kind of creates kind of another set of goals and objectives at that point is what do we do? How do we change or how do we shift when we are meet, when we have met with challenge, right? How can you support each other? Right. And if I need to take a step away for a moment, that there's a general understanding that when there's a change in my partner's feeling and also I want to add that in there, I also want them to recognize their anger. Cuz why do you know when you get an angry, as you know, with children working with children? I talk about feeling hot, right? How do you know when you get in angry? Because we kind of teach them to manage their response, right? Because they get in trouble when they like throw a chair in a classroom. But there are there are cues and that, you know, that I'm getting angry, too. I feel hot is my you know, do I feel my heart beating fast? Do I feel shaky right there? Cues a little spotty. No. Before we go to a thousand. Right. So even for adults, we need to kind of check in and say, I'm feeling uncomfortable right now. I'm feeling hot. I'm feeling attacked. So can I say, you know, what I think we're getting is a little hard. Easy right now. We both need to be in alignment that when someone says that it's getting a little hot right now, can I take a step for a moment and come back and revisit that? There is absolute trust that we're going to revisit this conversation, because often a lot of people will say no. They say, we're going to say that we're going to table it and come back and it never is resolved again. So we have to have that promise also that it's not just to say, I would like to stop and calm down. You must come back and have that conversation. And that's that's what build trust. Also, the other person that wants to have the conversation now, right. They are able to manage and kind of keep a level head. They're able to be thoughtful, intentional about what they're saying and other partner may not have that skill. We don't want to, you know, kind of beat them down for not having that skill. Sure. I want to let the other partner know this is what your partner needs, right? This is what I this is what they need is a time to kind of regroup and come back, maybe articulate what they want to say, maybe write it down and come back with points so they can come back kind of kind of centered. And what the non intentional what they want to say. And sometimes you need a therapist to kind of help just create that because in the heat of the experience, there's no no one has the ability to kind of say, you know, this is what we need. So sometimes a therapist, a couple's therapist to help kind of develop that, that, that, that blueprint when there's conflict, this is what we do.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah yeah. No completely I, I think that that the time out is one of the most crucial because especially we see that there's often things just in the avoidant in relationship together that is so common that that happens. And so it's often the anxious person who's chasing that resolution and the avoidant who maybe needs to take a step back. But the anxious wants to know that the avoidant is coming back. And that is really important that they know that when you talk about though, like maybe somebody doesn't have the skill to regulate totally agreed, like especially if they weren't raised with that it wasn't role models. Do you believe though, and do you put the onus on them that while you might not know it, it is your responsibility to learn it? Like we can only ask your partner for so much patience?

 

Arron Muller:
Yes or yes and to let them know that part of the responsibility right of of us being is relationship is being able to to have certain skills. Right. So we recognize that you can have it again I go back to what do you want to do? Do you find that this is beneficial because if the person has defined it beneficial, then it's not going to be helpful. So recognize it. I see you. I understand these are the reasons why part potentially why you didn't have these skills. If we go into your childhood, what you want to do, how can it help you? Help you? And I always say frame it you as an individual and also help you in your relationship. And if his children are involved and help you modeling this behavior for your children.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah. Which is so important to break that intergenerational trauma and dysfunction and so that they can show up differently for their partner, you know, like that. I think that that is a really important part of it. But yeah, I do think that those skills, whether they stay in the relationship or they choose to leave the relationship, I often say that as well, that like some of these skills, you just need to know to function in life effectively because you're probably well, you might not be lashing out at other people in the same way you're lashing out at your partner. You're not showing up as effectively and other dynamics as you could be if you had these skills.

 

Arron Muller:
Absolutely. And and I point and I point that out in terms of, you know, how how does it affect you at work and how does it affect you with friends and different things like that. But, you know, sometimes also they may be able to have that skill with friends and and at work, right. Because there's this kind of like, I'm getting paid to do this. I can't show. Wow. So that awareness is there when this with our intimate partner we is so much emotion and feelings involved that the world is so raw that we give them all of our ugly in all of our nasty.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, well, I think that it feels there's so much more of a threat there that especially knowing that insecure attachment is based no matter what your insecure attachment style is, it's based in this really intense fear of rejection and abandonment. And so when we're in conflict with our partner, the very person who we crave the most, who we want, you know, we want their acceptance, we want their approval, and we are in conflict. Our brain is telling us there's this threat of losing them or there's this threat that they're they're rejecting as they don't like us. And I think that that's where we become so reactive, because that's really scary when, you know, when you don't know what's going to happen to this person. You love them outside, Right?

 

Arron Muller:
Also in, you know, this person supposed to love me. And I'm not feeling love right now or I'm not feeling heard right now. You're not hearing me. You're not listening to me. Why? You're not giving me this? Why am I not feeling this? You supposed to. We made a covenant, right? We made a promise on all of those things. So is it. It's a bit of you know, I would call it a tantrum, but it's like, Oh, I'm. Yeah.

 

Dr. Liz:
Right, right. Look at me. You see me? It's how many you care. Yeah.

 

Arron Muller:
Yeah.

 

Dr. Liz:
How do you see the cultural differences come up in the work that you do? So I know a lot of your social media, a lot of advocacy, especially for the black male. So that's that's something that you do a lot of. Where do you see these cultural differences come up, like when you're doing couples work and how do you kind of navigate that?

 

Arron Muller:
So I would so there's two things. One, you know, working with African Americans and then working with Afro-Caribbean families from Jamaica and Aruba. So just knowing the culture is so important and we talk about a lot about in the field cultural competency that's very important in the work that we do and being aware of dynamics. Of course, there's no one size fits all, but we understand that cultural culture plays a huge role in terms of people's lives. So with that being said, I'm always going to ask them in terms of in your household how this things work out, what's the what's the dynamics? Of course there's shared experiences, but you know, I always let them know that just because I'm black, I'm a black male and you're a black man, that we have the same complete same experience. But I understand also understanding the nuances and some of the kind of general cultural norms helps in terms of the work that I'm doing. There's no need to explain or go into great detail because I could kind of speak to it or understand the dynamics or understand why you may have responded that way because of the event or where you were or how you felt. So that really helps in terms of the work that I do, being a black male and working with black couples and Afro Afro-Caribbean couples.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, yeah. I like how you say that though, that just because you are a black male does not mean that every black male that sits in front of you, you automatically are going to get their experience. And that, you know, for whatever culture that is, you know, every white woman that sits across from me, I'm not going to get her experience. And I think that's an important distinction to make, that this isn't just about like when we are culturally competent part of that is knowing that we are culturally incompetent, incompetent that like we don't know, you know, like there's not even if we have a general awareness around a culture, there's so many nuances that it is our responsibility to ask the client who is the expert on themselves, what their experience is.

 

Arron Muller:
Absolutely right. And that and then showing that I'm taking that to account in terms of interventions, in terms of how I'm working with them, in terms of the things that I see, that's that's so that's so important. But the visibility of black men in this field is so important. And That's what I use my platform for, just to, one, raise awareness that, you know, and that's what Black Kinky therapy tool came from that I trademarked just encouraging black men to go seek therapy because that's, you know, doing couples counseling. That's when I recognize that black white this brother needs some therapy. And so like on his own, because years ago when I started back in 2016, I really started doing private practice. You know, I would see, you know, the partner in the hetero normative relationship, the the way for the girlfriend is like, I'm making the appointment and is coming. And he comes in and he slouches down in introducing myself and this kind of like, I'm just here and she is doing the majority of the talking. And then I'll just say I'm like, Hey man, what's up? Like, tell me why you're here. And she dragged me here. I'm like, So, So she dragged you here. So you just so I said, So it's all good, huh? Everything's good. Nah, nah, it's not. And then you see the posture change. Because I was asking questions. I explored. I made him feel a part of the conversation, you know? Right. Ask him his feelings. And then when she interject, you know, I'm like, pause. You. You have opportunity. Well, you.

 

Dr. Liz:
Were. We're ready.

 

Arron Muller:
Right? Right. And you know, and having have that having him have the opportunity to speak and that helps to build that camaraderie, build that, wow, I have that space. And then at the end of the session, it's like, man, this was this was oh, I say that's a you didn't want to come here, right? You know, in your life. But just to have that space to kind of feel heard and understood. And that's why I started Black Kingsley therapy, too. I'm like, Didn't black men need to go to therapy?

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah. Yeah. And I was going to ask where that kind of when you got more into the advocacy part of that. So it was kind of your private practice work you were doing? Absolutely aware.

 

Arron Muller:
Absolutely. Just just recognizing the need and just seeing it in terms of in the world and that time, you know, in terms of shooting that we're seeing, it was nowhere near where it is now in terms of black men being killed. It I felt the need is even greater in terms of getting the help. We're seeing a lot more conversation around it, a lot more conferences and things of that nature. So I'm really happy to see that it's actually not just I kind of kind of this thing that's just just for now. I'm glad that is going to stick. That is something that people and black men are finding value in and not ashamed of saying that, yeah, I have the this.

 

Dr. Liz:
Right, Right. And you are normalizing it so much and that's what I love a lot even about your page and stuff and the stuff you put in your stories that like you just you vacillate between just like you're just like an everyday guy. Like you're like you can go hang out with them this weekend or you could be sitting on your couch across from you, you know, like, right. You are just relatable in that way. And I love that. And I respect that because that is when then, you know, another black man might be scrolling through his Instagram feed or the Explore page and he's going to see you not presenting as like a know it all or as self-righteous or something like that, just as like a normal dude. And he can connect to that. And I think that's a powerful thing.

 

Arron Muller:
Yes, and that was my intention. That is exactly what I wanted to project just every day person that that you can actually go to get therapy. And, you know, now I'm shifting focus and I'm still that's still important to me. But I also want to show the need for more black men in the field and I'm excited to be to be teaching social work, to be to represent as a black male, a professor. I've gotten numerous, you know, just talks from students. Just I've never had a black professor before, you know, And it's like, wow, you know, just to be able to introduce that that experience. And and so students can have a different lens in terms of when they are in social work school, when they work with different populations, what they experience. With my knowledge, working in addiction, you know, I worked at a drug treatment program for many years, just bringing that knowledge of, you know, working in the city social service programs and working with diverse populations, with the severely mentally ill. Just bringing all of that knowledge, I think is so important from from a different lens to the to future social workers.

 

Dr. Liz:
Know for sure because, you know, like obviously, you know, the vast majority of those students probably even was your education like it's the white woman, right? Is the varsity.

 

Arron Muller:
Wrestling. That's the field we go in, right? That's the that's the fear that they go and. Right.

 

Dr. Liz:
So that's I mean, it's a brave choice even to begin with, to be like, I'm going to break, you know, break the mold. But then furthermore, for you to be able to then go teach, I mean, that's incredible because that those are the perspectives that are needed, like the perspectives that are outside of the this box that has been so much the mental health field for so long. Yes. It yeah, it's it's not working anymore. And it probably didn't work then. But once, you know, there is this opportunity to build it. Expand it. Yes. So much respect for you for that.

 

Arron Muller:
Thank you. Thank you. And I talk about not only insight in awareness for our clients is also for providers and clinicians that we are where inside have our own insight in a way about biases or preconceived notions that we have before, before we provide a service. And that's for everybody, you know? But I talk a lot about for my students, like you need to be aware of yourself. You need to be aware of how you're feeling in the moment when you're working with the client. Because what the things that you say could impact them, right? If you're dealing with trust issues and you working with a couple that there was infidelity, how are you going to manage what you experience, not bring that it's they focus on their relationship.

 

Dr. Liz:
Right. Right. And that especially I mean, we know we've been in the field for a long time and we still know that triggers can come up and that we are still human as we're sitting there. And so being aware of it. And I think the other piece of that is not denying it. No, not not denying, you know, your biases and your prejudice ness and like all of the stuff that you are bringing to the table, we all are looking through, through life in our own lens. But if you continue to deny it that I think that that's when you are most likely to show up, You're most likely to cause harm versus having the awareness of.

 

Arron Muller:
It when the awareness is absolutely important. And again, in it translate back to with our clients to that awareness. We all come with stuff, we all have our stuff, right? So nobody's going to be polished squeaky clean, right? A nice, a nice Tiffany box. But the acknowledgment that we're in this for a very long way, owning your stuff, nobody can take that away from you once you own it.

 

Dr. Liz:
Absolutely. All right, Erin, I appreciate your time. We will leave it on that note, because that is a good note to leave it on now. Everyone where they can find you, your your website, social media, where can you be found?

 

Arron Muller:
So I can be found on Instagram. The black underscored therapist. As you can see down below the black on the spot. Therapist My website for my nonprofit is called Modify Wellness dot org. I'm really excited about that. That's where I do events and conversations around mental health. I'm looking to explore and go around all around the country talking about mental health to anybody that wants to hear me talk.

 

Dr. Liz:
I love it. That is awesome. Thank you so much, Erin, for being here. I really appreciate you hanging out and for all your insights. So very grateful. Thank you so much.

 

Arron Muller:
Thank you so much.

 

Dr. Liz:
Thanks again, Arron, for giving us some ideas on growing together with our partners. And thank you all for hanging out Unrelatable Relationships unfiltered. Make sure to subscribe to our YouTube channel, sign up for my newsletter and find me on Instagram at Dr. Elizabeth Fedrick. This is relatable relationships, unfiltered.