Relatable podcast 

Episode 44: fighting fair with jason vanruler

Dr. Liz hangs out with Jason VanRuler, Licensed Therapist, to chat all about “fighting fair” in our relationships. Dr. Liz and Jason chat about common causes of conflict, including feeling “triggered” and hurt by our partners, and ways to manage this conflict more effectively. They each share about personal examples of struggles with conflict in their own relationships, as well as tools and methods they have found to be helpful for resolving conflict. You won’t want to miss this very relatable episode all about managing relational conflict.

transcript:

Dr. Liz:

Hey, welcome to Relatable relationships, unfiltered dealing with conflict and relationship can be so hard, but it's also inevitable. And today, I'm hanging out with Jason Van Ruler, therapist and author, and we're talking all about how to fight fair. This is relatable relationships, unfiltered. Hey, Jason, good to see you again.

Jason VanRuler:

Hey, it's good to see you. I've been looking forward to this.

Dr. Liz:

Yes, I have as well. Yeah, we had a great time on on your Life when we did. Was that like. That was like, back in the winter, I guess. How long ago was that?

Jason VanRuler:

That was. It seems like years ago. I think it was actually just last. Last? Right before Christmas, probably.

Dr. Liz:

Okay. That's what I was thinking. Because you had, like, this beautiful background. You had, like, snow falling and I think like a fire burning and it was very Hallmark esque for sure.

Jason VanRuler:

That's what I was going for. I was I was going for Hallmark. So I did.

Dr. Liz:

Who achieved it? So today we are going to talk all about conflict and we're going to talk about fighting fair, what that looks like. But before we get into like tips and tools on fighting fair, let's talk about some common reasons that conflict even arises in relationships, because as you and I both know, we are often fighting about things that we are not actually fighting about. And so when we get in those arguments over, you know, start nitpicking at each other or the jabs start going back and forth, it's very rarely about what we're jabbing about.

Jason VanRuler:

Yeah, yeah. I wish it was easier because then I think we could really get it done sooner and I'm sure we'll talk about how to do that. But yeah, I mean, usually it's from I'm not feeling seen, heard, understood, but that's not always what we lead with. So we usually lead with something else or the symptom of that. And then we have some work to do as how do we actually get to the heart of what's really going on so we can actually address it and move on?

Dr. Liz:

Yeah, Yeah. Which is that when we don't know the root of what's going on, which is what I see happen most often with my clients. And you know, before you and I were trained in this before we did our own reading and then writing on it and everything of that nature, we didn't know either. These are not things that are often talked about in childhood or during our upbringing. There's not awareness around when we're feeling triggered, when our body is feeling activated, which leads into the conflict, we often are not taught that well. You're feeling that way because you're afraid they might leave or you're afraid of rejection or, you know, these bigger experiences that are going on. How do you do that with your clients? Like when you are first helping them? Because it can feel really big and daunting at first when you're starting to learn these things. Where do you even start with that so that your clients, whether as a couple or individual, start to become aware of why they're feeling triggered and where the conflict is coming from?

Jason VanRuler:

Yeah. So one of the exercises I'll use is if we're going to have conflict, can we put why we're having conflict into one sentence? And if we can't do that, we need to spend some time figuring that out. And the reason that I want people do that is to kind of think about the clarity behind what is really going on. And then I would ask to in this moment, in this conflict, if there were one thing that you would want the other person to know or understand about what's going on, what is that? And usually when we answer that, we actually get to the heart of what's going on. Someone might say, I'm really angry. You didn't do the dishes. And I'll say, Well, so what would you really want to understand? Well, I'm tired and I feel like I need some help.

Dr. Liz:

Okay? And I was. Yeah, that's exactly what I was going to ask you. Like, what does that usually look like? What are some of those common responses? Because even when you're saying to put it into one sentence, will the one sentence be like, I'm mad you didn't do the dishes? Or then are you probing further from there?

Jason VanRuler:

Yeah, I think as I have clients do that, what they're usually seeing is it's really not about that. So as they start to write that out and they're saying, Well, I just wrote the sentence and it's all about the dishes, they usually in that moment are starting to kind of catch up to what they're really feeling and thinking. And then they're like, Yeah, but it's actually not that right. And so I'll even say to people, if we just took us one step deeper into that, what would we see in that space? What would you acknowledge or what might you say that's different than what you're saying now?

Dr. Liz:

Yeah, and then that is where it often unravels. And I talk a lot about the the cycle of disconnection that is where conflict ensues, you know. So there we have this situation that happens where our partner says or does something that Partner B does not like, and then partner B often is feeling triggered. So having that physiological response, which I think is so important for people to understand and often miss, that when we are having a reaction to something, our body is the first thing that alerts us to that. But because we are such a society of go, go, go, we're not stopping to do body scans, we're not meditating, we're not checking in on that. We almost miss not almost we do, we miss the cues. And so our body can alert us like our stomach is hurting our chest is getting tight, our head is pounding, telling you like, yo, like there's something wrong. Like, hello, hello. But we are completely ignoring that and instead going straight into the action, which is generally making an asshole comment or, you know, doing something that is grabby, which then that is where the cycle starts because then the other partner is most certainly not going to let that go. You know, they're going to go.

Jason VanRuler:

Why would you let it go? I'm never letting anything go and I have to address everything all the time.

Dr. Liz:

That would be so boring just to let something slide. So, absolutely. How do you help your clients with, I assume you talk about a similar cycle with that, whether the infinity loop or where do you take them with that so that they kind of see what their dance's looking like?

Jason VanRuler:

Yeah. So a thing that I use a lot is the karpman triangle, if you're familiar with that. And it talks about three different positions that we take in conflict. And so I'll walked in through. So the three positions would be one is to be like a hero or rescuer. One is to fall into a victim stance of I can't do anything. This is all happening to me. And then one is to turn into a bully. And so what I'll do is I will actually make that triangle on the floor of my office with ropes and all this cool stuff and chairs, and I'll have them walk out that conflict and work out what role they think they're in. And and then if they want to step outside of that unhealthy role, how do we step into the healthy right? And so the rescuer becomes a coach, the victim becomes a survivor, and the bully becomes an encourager. And so we'll talk through what would it look like. Now, the beauty of that is we're actually walking it out like you talked about with our our nervous system. We're actually regulating some of that, but we're also seeing visually what we're experiencing in front of us, which for a lot of people is a very powerful thing because it's easy to throw out words, but it's different when you see that happening.

Dr. Liz:

Sure, sure. And do you find that most people end up in a different role depending on the conflict? Or do you find that most people are because like as you're describing that, like I'm thinking about previous partners and what role they would probably consistently be in or my can very clearly identify a role I would consistently be in.

Jason VanRuler:

Isn't it funny how that happens? It's like, Oh yeah, that's me. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dr. Liz:

And so do you see that? Generally, regardless of the conflict, they end up in the same type of role.

Jason VanRuler:

Yeah, we all so Cartman talks about we all have a role that we kind of just typically go to. It's kind of our comfortable spot now that can be different in different relationships, but oftentimes we have a similar role. I always joke with my clients that I'm a highly paid rescuer, right? That's my role in conflict was I you know, I'm therapist Jason and I'll save you and and you don't have to do anything. And so we just kind of talk through that, but it affects everybody. So the thing I'm always trying to tell people is what Cartman talked about is that everybody goes to one of those three unhealthy roles. So it's not just you, it's not just your partner, but we all do that. And really the advantage is knowing which one we're in so we know how to step out of it.

Dr. Liz:

And then what does that look like? What are the actual tangible steps to step out of it?

Jason VanRuler:

Right? So if I'm the rescuer, what I'm really needing to do is to give the other person space to work through it on their own and to say, okay, yep, I know you can do this. You might not do it as quickly as I would like it to. You might not even use the same words, but I'm going to give you some space to come to that. For the victim, it's to move into that survivor. What? What control do I have? What agency do I have and how do I take ownership? And then for the bully, how do I be encouraging instead of critical? And that's a tough one because it can be really easy to be judgmental and critical. And so how do I step out of that and actually just encourage my person in this moment to do something different?

Dr. Liz: Sure.

Yeah. And I can see for myself, I most definitely vacillate between either that rescuer rescuer or the bully like I, I, you you know.

Jason VanRuler:

What? If rescuing doesn't work, you have to do something.

Dr. Liz:

About it of you.

Jason VanRuler:

Can't save them. I'm going to beat on them a little bit. Yeah I totally and that is the thing right is it's like, well I'm trying to help you. Why don't you want my help? And then we go to that other spot.

Dr. Liz:

Well, yes. And then when I'm feeling hurt, I am not. The victim role is not anywhere near where I'm going to hang out, because that's the part I get so irritated when I see, you know, like my partner or hanging out in that role and so, yeah, I definitely do get critical because I'm like, how can you be how can you come across so powerless, especially when it comes to your own behaviors like you did, You did behavior A which led to result B and now like, you know, whether it's the justification around it or whatever, like that drives me crazy. Okay, so now you've turned into my therapist, so that's awesome.

Jason VanRuler:

This is actually my goal all along. Well, and I'll tell you so the way that I do it is I have these different roles, but I actually use chairs to kind of signify our positioning in the relationship. So the victim I have like a kindergarten chair is a very small chair. You have to sit in when you're in that role because it feels like we're a child and we're helpless. And when I do the rescuer, they sit in a chair, so they're clearly sitting higher than the victim and the bully is sitting on a stool. And so, you know, when we are in that space of I'm, you know, trying to rescue and my partner's in the victim chair, like just a visually see that doesn't feel great, but it gives us a great awareness of, okay, this is actually what's going on. What do I do differently?

Dr. Liz:

Yeah, yeah. Do you see can each individual in the couple, can they clearly see what they're like? Well, they generally take ownership of that. I just see that so many people push away from that victim like they don't want anything to do with it. You know what I mean? And so do you see that people can identify is that when you're doing this activity.

Jason VanRuler:

So it's funny you said it. No one ever wants to be the victim, you know, So it's like, hey, there's these three roles, there's rescuer, bully victim, and he's like, anything but victim. I don't that's not for me. And so that can be kind of a hard one, I think, for people to say, yeah, that probably is where I'm at. The way that I help them with that is if they are in that place, When have they felt like that before? Because oftentimes they have survived trauma or they survived abuse where they literally were the victim. And so for them, it's not like they're choosing that role or that that's fun for them. It's just it's what they've literally had to do to adapt. And so I tell clients, we're not here to judge the roles. Quite frankly, they're all on the unhealthy side, so there's no better one than the others. But if it's where you're at, then it's where you're at. How do we step out of it?

Dr. Liz:

Yeah, yeah. And I use that phrase so often that either end of the spectrum is dysfunction. So whether you're over functioning or under functioning like that is dysfunction. I use this the three WS as a tool I use frequently. And I like what you're talking about because I think that ties into the third WS. So it's the what's going on, where is it coming from and what do I need? And so for that first step, the what's going on is like always starting with a physiological reaction because that brings our awareness to it. But where is it coming from? I like what you're talking about in terms of like, when have I felt this in the past? And I talk to my clients about that a lot. Like just sit with it for a second.

Dr. Liz:

Allow yourself, you know, just to float back, whatever that looks like of when have I had this feeling in my body? Because that often gives us a very clear indication as to why we're feeling so triggered. But that third W of what do I need? I could see how even tying in like how can I step out of this role and into the more functional like that could be a really effective third W of okay, what do I need just to step over that gap, you know, and, and get to the other side of that.

Jason VanRuler:

Absolute lead, do you. So when I ask people about what do you, what do you need in this moment or what do you needing do you find people struggle with that because it seems like people oftentimes have a really difficult time identifying what they're actually needing to get out of it to move on?

Dr. Liz:

Absolutely. Yes. And a lot of people can't identify needs in general. So let alone to be able to identify a need when you're feeling so disregulated. And often in those moments, because we didn't have a lot of us didn't have co regulation as a child, we didn't have somebody there teaching us how to regulate or just even holding space and safety while we regulated. And so then as an adult, you know, as you're saying with the adaptive child traits of like we just learned how to survive, So whatever we had to get do to get through that disregulation is the same thing. We're doing today. And so, yeah, I think that's very common and I try to give them multiple categories of the what do I need? It's like, okay, what is something you've done to calm your body in the past, or what are things you do that help you to feel relaxed? But sometimes the what do I need can be? Maybe it's a boundary you're needing to set. Maybe it's taking a time out from the situation as what you're needing, like really just digging into how can I get my nervous system to come to de-escalate? Because that's got to be the first goal before we try any conflict resolution of any type.

Jason VanRuler:

Yeah, absolutely. Because there's we're not even in the space right? We're somewhere else. And so sometimes I think you just need understanding or sometimes we might say, what I just really need is for you to hear me. You can disagree, but I just need to know that you're hearing me in this moment.

Dr. Liz:

Yeah. Yeah. What is your thoughts around timeouts when it comes to, you know, in the midst of conflict?

Jason VanRuler:

Yeah, I think they can be powerful if they're not punitive. So. So the challenge is, do we need them sometimes? Absolutely. Can they also be misused? Totally. Right. And so the challenge is if this is a legitimate thing that you need to ask for, that's great. But then you need to explain it. You need to tell them when you're coming back. You know, we need to do some of that kind of loving and kind care for the other person. We can't just run away. And so I think if you know how to use them well, absolutely. I would also just say that shouldn't be something we're doing every conflict that we have, because if we are, then that's a sign we probably need to do some other work.

Dr. Liz:

Sure. Learning, learning some regulation skills, learning healing, previous traumas that are being that activated for us. And I think that's a great way to put it. As long as it's not punitive. And the other thing that I suggest for my clients is to have that conversation. When you're in a calm, safe space like that, this is this is a style I've learned in therapy or this is, you know, that I'm going to try to start implementing because the point of the timeout again, both ends of the spectrum. So if we're going from lashing out to now, completely isolating, you're still on two ends of the spectrum. But if you are using that timeout effectively so that for me, like I have to remove myself from a situation when I get to a certain point and like that is the only way for like that. I can create enough safety that I can let my my body regulate, but I will have that conversation prior and so that there's clear understanding around what is this timeout look like? What is my verbiage around it. So it's it's safe and not abandoning I'm reassuring I'll be back And then also I don't know I would love to hear your thoughts around the length of it. So like what you usually suggest, because I know that a lot of people will be like, yeah, I took a timeout for 48 hours. It's like, Yeah, like that might not exactly be the point here.

Jason VanRuler:

I was going to say a month. So, you know, I like to really space it out and then just never come back. Yeah. So the thing is, I love what you're saying about like it's good to talk about it when we're in a healthy spot and we can have a conversation. And to your point, too, I mean, if we're flying from one end to the other, I mean, the the opposite of the one extreme is another extreme. And so it's kind of like, how do we find the middle? So for me, just in my relationship, we've kind of discussed it. And so for me, if I need a timeout, which means I'm feeling disregulated, I'm feeling like the next things I'm going to say are going to just be like this laundry list of bad stuff I can't clean up in in my marriage. What it looks like is I grab my running shoes and I go, I'm going for a run. And that's just kind of code for, Hey, I'm going to go and I'm going to run a couple of miles until I'm more clear headed, and then I'm going to come back to her and talk about it. And so luckily, I'm not in that great of shape. So my wife knows, like the break is never going to take that long. She's like, he's five. Yeah, like it's an hour tops. He's not this guy's not going away for a day. But will we just have, like, this understanding? It's actually kind of a beautiful thing where it's just like, Yeah, I'm going for a run. And when I get back, I feel way better, and I have a clear head. She's had time to do her thing and get regulate it, and then we can actually talk about it.

Dr. Liz:

Yeah, and I love that, that there is this understanding of what what is that going to look like? And then what does it look like when we come back together? And so I think that's the other piece of it that because sometimes we'll come back together, you know, it's like, okay, we've taken a time out, let's try this again. Maybe one of the partners didn't have a long enough time out or whatever the case and a job is fired early on. That's okay. If you have to take a couple, you know, and the back and forth. But I often encourage clients to have that. So the way you're describing, like, you know, that usually the length of time of a run is enough to regulate for people to really sit with and identify. So maybe sometimes that's tracking, really tracking their body. So when you walk away to go, take your time out, don't go, you know, jump on Facebook, Don't go turn on an episode of something necessarily. Sometimes that does help to regulate, but sometimes it can be helpful. Go step away and do some deep breaths and literally set a timer and get an idea of when the physiologic trickle response goes from like fire inside your body to like, okay, now I don't feel like, you know, I'm being chased by a saber tooth tiger anymore. Like I'm good. It's turned into a kitten and we're safe. But sometimes timing that can be really effective. So then that message can be communicated to their partner.

Jason VanRuler:

Absolutely. And everybody's a little different, I think, for myself and a lot of people doing some sort of movement or like you said, breath work that is really helpful. Physiologic. Carly, Just to slow us down a little bit, when I you know, when I'm going running, the thing I'm trying to figure out is what is what is my part in this? So that's actually not something I usually want to think about. I'm like, I just want to think about your part in this. But as I'm running, I'm like, Hey, what's my part in this? And what do I really need to resolve it? Because if I can come back and I'm clear about that, then the chances are pretty good we can fix it. Yeah. And if I don't know that or I'm like, Hey, you know, I didn't do anything. I have no role in this whatsoever. They're terrible and awful, and I don't know what I need to fix it. I'm usually like, Oh, man, you got to get to run a little more, or you need to go home and say, I'm going to journal about this for a little bit because I'm just still not there. I want to be. I'm just not. Let's come back in another hour.

Dr. Liz:

Yeah, I love that. Such a great way to spend your time when you're taking that time out and such a great thing for your partner because you're really self reflecting something I found to be effective for that because I love that is sometimes to like literally put yourself in there from their lens. So like if you're having a hard time figuring out from your lens what your role is, because like for me, I'm like, No, he deserved to be criticized. He keeps being a dick about this thing. Like, okay, time out.

Jason VanRuler:

I love the way you think. Yeah, my mind is similar. It is not my first. That is not my kneejerk to be like, Oh, what did I do? I'm like, that's a that's a learned thing. Yes.

Dr. Liz:

Yeah. And that when you can then say, okay, let me, let me almost walk through what they were doing when this happened. Where are they coming from? What do I know about their heart, what I know about their intentions, what I what do I know about their character? Okay, let me try this again. And sometimes we can get to it a little more effectively that way. What does it look like when you when people come back together? What do you suggest for that, the conversation to look like from there? Yeah, So I.

Jason VanRuler:

Would yeah, what I love is for people to own their part first, right? So to just kind of say like, here's, here's what I came up with, I think I was, you know, reactive or I said that thing I shouldn't have said. And so I, you know, I'm sorry about that or I want to own that or take responsibility for that and then give some empathy. So it's kind of owning our part, empathizing with, you know, I bet when you heard me say that that was hard for you. And I acknowledge that and it's something that I would do differently, then I would listen to their position and then I would say, you know, so what do we both need to move past this? What is really the thing that that's needing to have happened for us to feel better and then be clear about that? Yeah, if you can't be clear, then we need a little bit more time, right? Than we might just say, okay, then let's circle back. But at least for now, I wanted to own I would have liked to have handled that differently.

Dr. Liz:

And for something like that to be effective, both people have to be on the same page. And that is something I'm sure you talk with your clients about a lot, especially the individual clients who maybe were working on relationship stuff, but maybe they're not. There's a couple that if both people are not just as motivated to be healthy and to resolve, then it's likely not going to still take responsibility for your part. Still, that doesn't you know, that doesn't mean you get on their page, but it tends to not be so effective unless both people are on the same page. But my point of saying that is that frequently when two people are on the same page with wanting that healthy relationship and wanting the repair, that initiation of this is my part and I'm sorry for that and not feeling the need to then point out their part after that, or then, you know, Oh, okay.

Jason VanRuler:

That's not helpful. Okay, well, you tell me. All right, fine.

Dr. Liz:

But I was.

Jason VanRuler:

Like, well, this is what I did, but I'm pretty sure that's what you did. Yeah.

Dr. Liz:

And how often do we see that, though? I mean, even in session, right? Like, okay, yes, I did that, but it was because you blah, blah, blah, or because you. But if we just take out that second part that the other person who is also wanting repair, they often don't have to be prompted like they are going to also take ownership of their side.

Jason VanRuler:

It's true, I'll say like, can we make it easy for them? If we if we want to repair from this, then make it easy for each other. And making it easier isn't mean. We're not telling the truth or we're not being authentic or asking for what we need, but it just means like the jabs don't make it easier. They make it more difficult. And so if you really want repair, give them an onramp to get there. Yeah. To your point though, and I think it's a wonderful point, if we're not both in a similar place of health or desiring health, I think it's challenging because that might not be enough to actually resolve it. And you probably see this for couples where maybe one person is definitely in alignment with that, but the other isn't. And then it's still messy. It doesn't actually get solved that way.

Dr. Liz:

Yeah. Yeah. How do you usually handle that when you have that type of lopsided dynamic?

Jason VanRuler:

Yeah. I mean, I think at that point we're really just assessing what is the other person trying to do. So if I come in and I say, you know, I want to own my part and also this is what I'm looking for a need and the other person's attacking. You know, what I would tell someone is, you know, give them a heads up like, hey, I'm hearing this as you're you're still fighting with me or I'm hearing this as you're making jabs. And I don't actually think that's going to help us. Is that what's happening? If it continues, then we move, unfortunately, into a place of I have to I have to have boundaries here that probably I'd rather not have because we're not in a safe space to actually do this.

Dr. Liz:

Yeah, well, at what point in maybe if you do ever suggest this, like when you see couples stuck in a toxic dynamic or like maybe it is just so lopsided and it's very clear that they're not invested in the same way. When do you feel like couples should start to consider maybe moving a different direction with it? I often talk about acceptance or change that who you're with is who you're with. And so if you can't accept them for who they are today, they're likely not going to change a whole lot. But then there there is.

Jason VanRuler:

That is so good and also so unpopular. But it is true.

Dr. Liz:

So some popular. Yes, because of course, especially as the fixers like, we're like, no, no, no, no. We will get.

Jason VanRuler:

They haven't met me yet. You may think they're going to be this way, but they have not met me yet. I will make it different.

Dr. Liz:

Yeah, exactly. At what point in that dynamic, though, do you start to see and I want to put the disclaimer, I know it is not easy to leave and I know whether it's kids or money or religion or family or whatever the case, it is not always easy to leave. But at what point do you start to think like, hey, that you might want to start considering other options here?

Jason VanRuler:

Yeah, that's a that's a big question. I, I think what I'll typically ask is do you do you suspect, you know what they'd say in this moment? And if the other person's like, yep, I know exactly what they're going to say and it's going to be negative, it's going to be unhealthy, it's going to be toxic or hurtful, then my question is why? Why are we meeting them there? So if you can accurately predict what's about to happen, why are we doing that? What is that about for us? Well, it's the money to get. So then we really need to dig into what is that about? But I think when the other person is so locked into a behavior that it's predictable, that's usually a pretty good sign that we're not going to change a whole lot.

Dr. Liz:

Yeah, no, and it's it's such a good point. And that toxic cycle that I talk about so frequently, which it's very similar, similar to the disconnection cycle, often the disconnection cycle starts it, which then leads into, you know, the toxic cycle which I describe as this. The disconnection cycle starts, we get really volatile, we get explosive, which often results in the separation of the dynamics. So whether it's that literal separation, you know, like you're somebody moving out or maybe you don't, you breaking up even in the same home that we see this little go days without talking. And then often what happens in the toxic cycle is that nothing actually gets resolved because heaven forbid, we bring up that effing topic that gets us here every time. So like, I am not touching that, but I'll start flirting with you. I will do something kind for you. I will do something to like, you know, send a message your way that I'm I'm open to engagement the other person and everybody gives into that and nothing is talked about. Nothing is resolved. But we're we're back to the starting point. When I see that on loop, that is one of the things that I'm kind of like, okay, either we need to try to redo this cycle or that's to me are usually a pretty clear indicator that because like you're saying, if we've been doing this now 45 times, the odds of it changing because it's so ingrained, not as likely.

Jason VanRuler:

Absolutely. And and if we're treating this person who we supposedly love or care about really poorly, at what point is that a message to us that we're either in the wrong relationship or we're in a relationship that really, really needs to change? I think when we're behaving in a way that is negative or worse than we would typically behave, we have to justify it to other people. We've lost ourselves in that relationship. That's no longer a healthy place to be. And you probably see this too, you know, when you work at clients and they'd say these outlandish, Well, yeah, well, I had to tell him to do this and she did that. And it just But here's why. I think the minute we're saying, well, here's why it doesn't make sense to anyone else, but it makes sense to me, probably not the relationship we're actually looking for.

Dr. Liz:

Yeah, such a good point. Yeah. When you are acting, engaging in behaviors that are out of character for you, that and that was a cue. You know, a couple relationships ago I was I was in that very clear toxic cycle, and that was one of the indicators for me that I was like, This is so not who I want to be and this is so out of my character and so not like I don't want my clients if they were, like watching me right now, like, this is not who I want to be, you know, that's the worst.

Jason VanRuler:

Isn't that the worst thing? You have to think of those things. You're like, Oh, man, I have to be congruent with what I say. Oh, how do I do that right now? Yes.

Dr. Liz:

Yeah. And so and that that is one of the ways for me that I'm like, if a client came in and was telling me this story and then I catch myself having to justify it instead of just like you're saying, like that is that is such a great, great reflection to all of like, why am I behaving in a way I have to justify and why am I behaving in a way that is so out of character and not who I want to be? But then the process of breaking up is not so easy. What are some suggestions you have around that? Because I know you do relationship and dating and so obviously well, breakups are inevitable in either case, but what are some some tools or even some rules that you give around the breakup process?

Jason VanRuler:

I would say be clear, be concise, be kind. I mean, I think simple is better. I think where people get in trouble and I'll kind of say like, you know, if we're if we're telling somebody something with a lot of barbs on it, they're going to get hooked on. One of the things we're saying. And if we're breaking up, what we're really saying is that there's nothing they're going to say that's going to change it. So so don't invite them into an argument if what you want to do is break up, if what you want to do is break up, you can say, hey, here's my perspective on things. We're misaligned. My perspective is we're just never going to agree on some of this stuff. And I'm actually past the point where I'm interested in trying to work it out. And so for that reason, I want to be done here. So I think just make it really clear, be as kind as you can and just be be simple with it. Because I think where I see couples that you probably see as get in trouble is they're like, Well, here, here are the ten pages of reasons that we're breaking up, and most of them are accusations. And so let's make this a clean break up. The other person's like, Well, since we're so good at fighting, let's start. There's a lot of material here. And then what it does is it unfortunately just furthers that toxic cycle.

Dr. Liz:

I completely agree. And I say that so often, like the last word you give, the less ammo you're giving. So like that, it doesn't you don't need to talk in circles because as you're saying, they're just going to grab on to something in there and take that as an invitation to convince you otherwise, which is not the point of breaking up. Or we could even say not the point of setting a boundary. Do you see this commonly with boundary setting as well?

Jason VanRuler:

Absolutely, yeah. Yeah. And so I think sometimes if we're not careful, we we think we want something, but we actually want something else. And so sometimes it's I think what I'm saying is I want to break up, but I actually want to reengage in the cycle again. And here's, here's a vehicle to do that. And so I think it's just being really intentional about what am I really trying to do here, and then how do I be really clear about that? But I think sometimes if we're used to living this way, we can just fall into it so easily. And it's I mean, I don't know, for me, I always felt this because, you know, I dated before I got married and for people who I was really, really closely aligned with and had a lot of chemistry, I just didn't want it to be true. It was like I knew the truth, but I didn't want it to be true. And so the whole breakup thing was really asking them to convince me otherwise. And I think when we get into that place, that's a really unhealthy place to be.

Dr. Liz:

Yeah, and that is such a great point that often that is it's it's this attempt to say, fight for me, show me, show me that you want to be here. Like, do do something which often, depending on what attachment style you're dealing with, depending on, you know, what that all looks like, it's either going to trigger in someone's going to be feeling abandoned by it. So they're likely not going to give you the reaction you want or. Well, that's pretty much. Yeah, the option to either end and then whether anxious or avoidant is how they're going to respond to that. But most often you're not going to actually get somebody saying like, Oh, no, don't do that. Let me fight for you and make everything better.

Jason VanRuler:

That's turns out I was healthy all along. Surprise. Let me explain. That's I mean, I think that would be awesome if that ever happened. I think maybe that's like once or twice. But but I mean, I think what we're doing is we're basically we're asking and we're we're authentically asking for someone to be inauthentic. Right? So we're saying, I care about you so much, I just need you to be a different person. Will you? Yeah. And then we're surprised when they won't, right? They're like, well, dang it all. They they are actually the same. Well, they are. And you are, too. And so the whole goal of dating is realizing, like, not everybody's going to be for you. Yeah. If they were you enough to date. So because of that, we're going to have to go through some of this.

Dr. Liz:

Which I can speak from being, you know, in the dating, whatever clusterfuck, whatever I was going to say, I was going to say.

Jason VanRuler:

I can't wait to hear how you describe that. I'm all ears.

Dr. Liz:

That it is hard to let go when you have what we would define as maybe chemistry with somebody or even like where compatibility you have multiple areas of compatibility. It is it's a rough, rough world out there as far as dating. And so I know for a lot of people they're like, but it's this or being alone and it really does. I can attest to that. It really does feel like that a lot of times. And so having the awareness around like, I mean, no, that's not really it's not really what it is. That is your emotional brain, not your logical brain. But I know for a lot of people it can feel that way. And so it's like, okay, let me just give this one more chance, because as humans, as I say, 1,000,000 million times, we are designed for connection. That is what we crave the most. And so when we have somebody who we've had that connection with, we don't want to let it go.

Jason VanRuler:

Right? Yeah, especially if we valued it. Yeah. I'm so curious. What do you talk? I mean, because I do hear that and it's a little as a person who's married, sometimes I feel like I don't know how to speak to that, but we're.

Dr. Liz:

Talking about that reason.

Jason VanRuler:

Yeah, I'm just a person in a relationship. Unlike you. I hope my my ring isn't blinding, but what do you. But what do you say? Because I do. I do see like that. You would definitely feel that. You'd say, you know, it's like for yourself, you're a successful person. You got all these things. It's just like, Hey, Jason, It's not like there's a ton of opportunity out there. So. So it does feel and maybe even there's some truth to if I'm not with this person, it might be a while before I find somebody else.

Dr. Liz:

Yeah, Yeah. And I talk and I try to practice what I preach. I talk a lot about exposure and that a lot of times, you know, and all those means that we see now, which I post all the time about, like, why is it so hard to find the love of my life sitting in my room with my DoorDash order and my reality T.V.? Like, why is that so hard?

Jason VanRuler:

Which sounds amazing. That's a great night, by the way. That's a living. Yes.

Dr. Liz:

But I find that so often for myself, for clients that were like, Why are we still single? But then like, what are you doing on the weekend? Well, I'm behind my computer working, you know, And it's it's really like nudging myself out of the comfort zone that the dating apps sure were on. Not so effective but like if we were actually out and about and engaging in networking events or going to your local gym that has like more of the community classes or things like that, there are a lot of opportunities to exposure that I think that we're not taking, as we would rather bitch about how lonely we are and not have these opportunities. But that is that's often what I say, you know, identify your top two or three things that are really important to you that you're passionate about. So for me, my business and being physically active and so putting myself in situations with other people who are like minded and even if it's not someone from there that I'm meeting like then is friends of friends and but that's usually the feedback that I give. Like, how much are you actually exposing yourself? And trust me, the advice is to myself as well.

Jason VanRuler:

I usually ask that question. It's never received well. Everyone's like, you know, I'm trying enough, I'm trying enough. And I'm like, Do you want to tell me about that? Like, Let's move on. I don't want to tell you about that.

Dr. Liz:

What type of feedback do you I mean, because obviously you I'm sure see that as well. What type of suggestions do you give around that?

Jason VanRuler:

Well, I, I mean, I think I think it's just like you said. And I mean, so before I did this, I was head of recruiting. The company was in sales. And I hate to say it, but in some ways dating is a lot like sales, right? If you're not prospecting, you're not going to meet people. And so we talk. I try to put it in better language than that, but but we talk about, you know, how how are we going to find someone for not trying to find someone and how are we going to find, you know, people who want to do the things we want to do if we're not doing them. And so if we're the best version of ourselves, chances are we're going to bump into some people who like similar things. I also have been kind of working on this idea that I think dating by decade is actually very different. And so I think there's a lot of dating advice that is right for one decade but wrong for another. And so I feel like in our toes where we're dating because it's about being young and having experiences. I feel like in our thirties we date about our aspirations. What are our career aspirations or family aspirations? I feel like in our forties we date and it's about our identity. What is our identity now and how well do you fit into that? In our fifties is about unfinished business. So what? What did we not get that we really wanted and how do we solve that? And then in our sixties and beyond is how do we do activities in life together to create a legacy. And so I think sometimes what I'll try to tell people is it does it does change a little bit depending on your age. And so are we focusing on the things that matter to our age group? Does that make sense?

Dr. Liz:

Yeah. No, that's brilliant. Very ERICKSEN esque. Sounds like you need a queen, All of that.

Jason VanRuler:

And it's all trademarked. If you heard it, it's all trademarked. Yes.

Dr. Liz:

Get some theory written around that, I think. Yeah. No, that is brilliant. And that's such a good point and would be great insights for people because it can sometimes just feel like like we're just drowning in the pool, which is considering how shallow it is. But that's what it feels like is like, you know, it's it's not a great feeling. So having clarity around it, yeah, I think is a brilliant suggestion. Let's talk.

Jason VanRuler:

About do I want Yeah.

Dr. Liz:

Yeah. Let's talk about a couple conflict resolution skills before we wrap up. So let's what's your favorite one or two that comes to mind?

Jason VanRuler:

Yeah, I mean, I think for me, I'm always, I'm always coming down to I kind of use like just three different things. So it's it's basically what is the conflict as I see it, what do I need and what do I want? And so the want is not always going to happen, right? So we might want them to be a different person or want them to say just the right thing, but actually what is the need? So to really move forward, what do I need? And so if I can get both parties to identify those things, so we agree on what the conflict is. We both have a wanted and need. We can work with that, right? And then it kind of becomes an act of negotiation. So I'll literally have I've got whiteboards in my office, I'll have clients write those out in the writing is helpful because it just activates and physiological stuff and then we'll talk about it when we can get there. We usually have a lot of clarity.

Dr. Liz:

Yeah, no, I love that. That's great. Yeah. And that's one of my favorite tools that I suggest for people. I call it RV reflect, validate and explore. And so similar when they get to that explore section, it's like really asking doing it though, where they're asking their partner those questions. Because I commonly see in conflict we get so focused on ourselves, on our own agenda, on what we want out of it that we don't stop to like we were saying, you know, earlier on about really validating or seeing their perspective. And so I see that to be one of the most effective conflict resolution places to start is validating what they're experiencing, reflecting back what you're hearing, giving them the opportunity to correct you if you're not hearing it correctly, and then and then exploring. So the same way you're describing the ones it needs. But then I would be asking like, Jason, what what are you needing from me right now? And to dig into it that way.

Jason VanRuler:

I love that. And I think that that's brilliant. It just makes it very simple and gets us connected in. And, you know, as you probably know, I mean, I think the secret to most conflict resolution is empathy and validation. If we can give those two things that like shuts down almost anybody, right. We might still have different needs or we might still see things from wildly different perspectives. But if we can meet each other in the space of empathy and validation, like, I just think it's going to be easy to solve. And so sometimes I'll ask couples if this this thing we're going through, this conflict, if this was an opportunity to do for connection, how would you deal with it differently? And so people that will even kind of help them go, Well, I probably wouldn't say the thing I want to say or I might I might, you know, squeeze their hand and let them know I love them or I might do this. But but it's just even switching that from if this wasn't something that's going to pull us apart but bring us together, what would I do to help that?

Dr. Liz:

I love that. And what a different what a reframe, what a different way to look at that. And yeah, and with that connection and the validation piece like that never gets old. That's like it. Never.

Jason VanRuler:

No one's ever like, I'm so tired of being validated. Empathize with screw that person. That never happens.

Dr. Liz:

Ever, ever. We I mean, we love it. It feels it is so safe. And even when like, you know, sometimes when we're over validating is we're really practicing the skill. And so it turns kind of silly and we kind of laugh about it, but we still love it. So that that is like such an important takeaway. Jason, tell us about your book. You have a book coming out and give us a little blurb on that.

Jason VanRuler:

Yeah. Yep. So it's called Get Past Your Past How facing Your Broken Places Leads to True Connection. And it's out October 10th and it just it has a lot to do with what we're talking about because we all have a past. And so for some that is just a, you know, a terrible thing. For some that's, you know, an okay thing and everywhere in between. But regardless, we all carry these lessons with us throughout her life. And the truth is, sometimes it needs to be changed. Sometimes the things we took away from an experience were really just due to those circumstances, and now we need to adjust. And so the book is about if we really want to connect and relationship, how do we address those things we're carrying with ourselves to to actually help us get there?

Dr. Liz:

All right. I love that so important and I talk so much about that. I use the term reprograming and very similar of these things that we've learned and how can we look at them through a different lens and such a powerful thing, which obviously, you know, has you're writing a whole book about it.

Jason VanRuler:

But it's the book I wish I would have had. I mean, when I think back to my 20 year old self, it's what I would have had. And and I think just kind of sharing like the genesis for it was just there's this parable about a guy goes to a circus and he sees an elephant, right? And the elephant is tied up with a very little rope to a stake. And the guy says to the ringmaster, How do you hold the elephant there with such a small rope? And the ringmaster says, Well, it's easy when the elephant small, the rope is big. And so the elephant learns, it holds it back. And so it just never challenges that. And so I wanted to write a book about everybody's rope and how we cut that, because I think that prevents us from having the relationships we want.

Dr. Liz:

Absolutely. Yes. Such a such a powerful thing. And yeah, the whole concept when we learn how helplessness is like, yeah, where can people find you with all of your brilliant insights on websites or social media? Where can you be found?

Jason VanRuler:

Yeah. Thank you so much, Jason VR dot com. And then on all the big social media Jason Dot van ruler I post daily stuff on Instagram and so you can find me there and in the book I guess I should say the book and audio book are on Amazon, Barnes Noble and other major retailers.

Dr. Liz:

Very cool and we will link that for sure to the show notes. Jason, you so much for all of your insights. I really appreciate your time.

Jason VanRuler:

Yeah, I learned a lot from you, so thanks for having the conversation. This is amazing.

Dr. Liz:

Absolutely. Thanks again, Jason, for your tips on handling conflict and repair. So important. And thank you all for hanging out. Unrelatable Relationships unfiltered, Make sure to subscribe to our YouTube channel, Sign up for my newsletter and find me on Instagram at Dr. Elizabeth Fedrick. This is relatable relationships, unfiltered.