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Dr. Liz:
Hey, welcome to Relatable Relationships Unfiltered. Today I am hanging out with Ken Canion certified relationship and personal development coach. We're talking about the infamous booty call and what to do if you want that booty call to become more. Hello, Ken. How are you?

 

Coach Ken:
Dr. Liz, how are you?

 

Dr. Liz:
I'm doing well. I am so honored that you have come to hang out with me today. I appreciate that greatly.

 

Coach Ken:
I'm honored that you invited me. And I figured, you know, why not hang out? Let's just talk about relationships and all kinds of stuff.

 

Dr. Liz:
Let's do it. Yeah. You're on Instagram, and I know you have an active TikTok presence as well, but your Instagram is what I mostly on your videos are. First of all, like on topics that are so relevant, but then they're also done in such a way that it's it is entertaining and just really applicable information. So grateful for that. And, you know, how did you get into doing what you're doing most short?

 

Coach Ken:
I've been married 22 years and about 15 years ago, my wife and I, we just couldn't get along. Headed for Divorce Court. I always tell people I said, Listen, I couldn't stand her. She couldn't stand me. We could communicate anything. Everything she said I didn't like and everything I said she didn't like. And so we went through a process where we had to rediscover who we were in the relationship. Now we thought we knew who we were outside, but then, you know, we had to rediscover. We both had evolved and we really didn't like each other. And most of what we did was one day I did a video called How $7 Saved My Marriage. And one day we were out just arguing and she said, Let's go for a ride. We pulled into a Wendy's parking lot. I only had $7 $7 to my back. I just got off a reality show and she said, Pull over in a parking space and I'll never forget it. Well, by the way, what I need to tell you about that is let's drive through. We ordered, I think, a big date to bacon cheeseburger specials at 1099. Just enough under $7. And then we were winning. And she said, pull over in a parking space. And I was like, For what? And she said, Because we need to figure some stuff out. But this time I didn't want to talk to her. But we pulled over that. We stayed there 2 hours and 42 minutes and we she said, we're going to stay until we figure out what's wrong with us. And during that conversation, I realized a whole lot about me, about I was a terrible communicator. She was too. Had a lot of childhood stuff. And that day recently came up with the conflict resolution system that saved our marriage and that helped me say, hundreds of other marriages. So that's kind of how I got into it. And I figured it was a bigger purpose than that and booty call. We got to talk about it, but I wanted to just kind of make amends for a lot of the shit that I did prior to getting married and all the other contribution that I did to low self-esteem and stuff like that. So that's another conversation. But yeah, that's how I got into it.

 

Dr. Liz:
Well, I love that it comes from personal experience because that is also and I'm very open about that, that I got into the work that I do as a relationship expert as well because of my own relationship difficulties and my ongoing relationship difficulties. And to be honest, that I continue to experience in a lot of ways it's just the knowledge is different and the way I approach is different. And each time I'm up against a situation like I have new information, a new experience, which I'm sure you can relate to in your marriage. But I do think that we're coming when we're meeting our clients with our own personal knowledge and experience, that often just goes a lot further and being relatable and being just able to connect with them. So I don't know. Is that been your experience of.

 

Coach Ken:
It has. I often say, you know, look, the truth is life is a it's a great teacher, you know, especially when you learn the lesson and, you know, not when. How many times have you not learned a lesson and you have to repeat it because what I want, what I what I try to do is, okay, what did I what did I glean from this? What did I learn from this? And how can I use this moving forward? But so, so many of us get stuck in the past thinking about what went wrong instead of what I can learn, how I can move forward. I imagine that's that's in your case. Have you had some situations like that?

 

Dr. Liz:
For sure. And then also like being able to give yourself grace and patience around? A lot of times we don't give ourselves credit for like, okay, maybe I ended up in a similar fucked up situation again. Like, what the hell is wrong with me? But we don't stop to look and say like, okay, but I was in the situation for half the time than I was the previous, you know, before I caught in a right or, you know, like the parts that our progress that we just were so quick to look past and just say what's wrong with me versus no, I actually did this one better. I actually showed improvement even if it still wasn't perfect.

 

Coach Ken:
Yes, that is a fantastic way to look at it. And I was telling the client today, I said, when you look at when you look at situations through the lens of what is wrong, what I did wrong instead of what I did right it, that's how people can look at the same situation and glean something different. One person looks at it and it becomes a growth opportunity. Another person looks at it and then they get stuck in a rut because they keep asking endless loop questions. Why did this happen? What did I do wrong? Why did it keep happening to me? Why do I keep attracting the wrong person instead of doing exactly what you just said? Okay, I did this half the time than I normally do. That's growth. Then I'm ready to roll.

 

Dr. Liz:
All right, then we were like, Next time, even less. Or maybe not at all, but we'll see. Right. Let's talk about the booty call, because that is and I think our more modern day term for that even being the situation ship, though, as Melissa, our producer, pointed out there, there is still a distinction between the booty call and the situation ship. So let's talk about where do you where do you want to start? How would you define the booty call? Let's start there.

 

Coach Ken:
Okay. So now it could be semantics. I mean, there's similar this so close. Okay. If there was any different, I would say a situation ship is where we think we act like this is going to go further. But we know it's not yet. Okay. A booty call. We just know what it is. We call it what it is. I think if that's the nuance difference, a lot of us from a lot of us, we actually try to fool ourselves and think situation ships are going to end up in relationships. And so that's why we call them situations as opposed to the booty call. You just come over, let's do this, let's do what we do. You go about doing your thing and a booty call. You may have someone else. I may have someone else. We understand what this is, and we've made it very clear what it is. I think that's the nuance difference, if you ask me.

 

Dr. Liz:

Now, I completely agree with the booty call, though, in your either personal experience, experience or clients, do people do most people and do all genders equally? Are they able to keep that distinction between like this just is what it is versus does it seem like there's maybe one person who's like, hey, this is what it is until I can kind of trick you into more. That's right.

 

Coach Ken:
Okay. So what does the solution that I got to turn that question around.

 

Dr. Liz:
Oh, great.

 

Coach Ken:
Turn now. The Internet. What about you? Just. Have you ever seen a situation? Okay, where you go into it and the guy? One of the lady is the one. This is not gender specific. Says, you know what? I just want to kick it. We don't have to have a title, You know, We know what we are. Let's just see where it goes. Okay. So you hear that the person that wants the relationship, that might want the relationship says, Oh, opportunity. If I do these things, if I do these things, then I feel like I can change them, I can change it and I can make it work to my favor. Well, what happens is they create an illusion. And this is illusions that they create is a mental and emotional conundrum that takes them, that helps them spiral down downward emotional. Because what happens is it's almost like cognitive dissonance is your behavior is really you're acting different than what you really want, right? And so you don't know how to navigate it. So what do you do? You just stay. Keep doing the same shit.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah. On loop. Yeah, that. That's a fact. And my friend, that is exactly what happens. And I think that the the issue with that is that a lot of people like with the booty call or with friends with benefits or whatever, whatever term. The idea is that there's not expectations on it, that you're not putting expectations on each other. Okay. So I've come to realize I completely suck at situation ships because I have expectations. So if you are in my life, you are an active presence in my life. I have expectations, right? And I think that that's where it ends up. Really not going well for a lot of people. Now, there's plenty of people who figure it out and and maybe can be effective, but that expectation piece tends to be an issue.

 

Coach Ken:
And I think you nailed, I think, one, I think we fool ourselves thinking that I don't have to have any expectations. We'll just let it go with the flow. Right. But in reality, if you think about now, this is not everybody. I don't want to generalize and say every single person. Right. But 90% of the people I was because some people can like, okay, they can go with the flow and this is what we do. It's a physical relationship. We get with each other. We have great sex together and that's all it is. However, most people don't understand this part of they don't understand that whether you choose to deny it or not, when sex gets involved, there is a physical component. There's also a biological component. So when sex happens, there's there there's a release of hormones, the oxytocin, the double me, and then the opiates and even serotonin that play a significant role in it. And other words that young people say you can't feel.

 

Dr. Liz:
You know.

 

Coach Ken:
I didn't intend to I didn't take the kids feelings, but that's what happens. And we think people really think that, you know, what will happen to me? I can deal with it. Come on. This is this is physiology. This is biology. Yeah, go ahead. You're not. You're not you're, you know.

 

Dr. Liz:
Different. Yeah. You're not getting one over on that, right? No, no. And I agree. And that's exactly what I explain to a lot of my clients when they talk about why they have such a hard time. Then moving on from it. So let's say they do recognize like, this is not this isn't good for me. This isn't good for my mental health. Like I need to be done with this. But then they're like, why can't I remove myself from it? Why is it so hard? And all of those hormones that are released create almost this addiction to it and that intermittent reward system of like, you know, the slot machine that you get the payout every time you go to that booty call. It's really hard to remove yourself from in your professional opinion, Do you think that the booty call is an unhealthy behavior?

 

Coach Ken:
So let me answer that by saying this for four words I don't use in my practice, my coaching practices. I don't use four words. I don't use something is good or bad or right or wrong. I avoid those.

 

Dr. Liz:
Words. Yeah.

 

Coach Ken:
And the reason? Because what was right for Dr. Liz might be wrong for Coach Kim.

 

Dr. Liz:
Agree.

 

Coach Ken:
You know what? What? What's good for Coach Kim might not be good for Dr. Lee. So what I use, I focus on to think, is it working or not working? Okay, so when you focus on is it working or not working? So for some people it works. Okay. Some guys I know. Okay, I'll look, let me hit that booty. It's good. I'll come a few times, then I'll go about my work. Okay? Some people, it doesn't work. And so what I say is it becomes it becomes it diminishes you emotionally when it starts to work for you mentally and emotionally. Yeah, you know what I'm saying? So I would say to so I guess to answer your question for some, it's cool to know what and if both partners understand what this is and what we're doing and, and also I would say understand the effects of it. And some people just keep it compartmentalized and what it is. So but for them, the vast majority of people that people are looking for love, people can say what the fuck they want to say, but at the end of the day, we are wired to love. Yes, we are wired. People want to love people. Now how we go about getting that sometimes, you know? Yeah, you know, that's that's why we have you and I have great jobs, right?

 

Dr. Liz:
Right. In that connection piece. I absolutely agree. And I think that that is why why people get into the booty call our situation ship to begin with because we are wired for that connection. And so while maybe our part of us is really emotionally unavailable or we are really afraid of rejection or abandonment, and to your point about the cognitive dissonance, that's exactly when it kicks in, because we're like, No way, I'm not getting close enough to let you hurt me. That's what we think. That's not really how these things play out. But then we when we then get into it, we want the connection piece of it. And so whereas you're saying the love of it, but either way, we want to be accepted, we want the affection and all of those things. And the reason I asked you that question, because I completely agree and I do not right or wrong, I don't agree with that either word or the term normal. Like what the hell is that? Right.

 

Coach Ken:
Right.

 

Dr. Liz:
But there's been a lot of I've seen more and more backlash word that's not even I guess, criticism of the situation ship on social media as of late that there's been this opinion about how dysfunctional and unhealthy it is and I haven't really fully sat with and reflected on that, but it has had my wheels turning up like, I really don't think that's a fair label or a fair criticism to cast if, as you're saying, it does work for some people, maybe they travel a lot for work or maybe they have family situations or whatever their personal situation, that that's what makes sense for them. That's maybe what makes sense for them.

 

Coach Ken:
And so the reason I look at that is, is it dysfunctional for a person not to have a car and they just want to take Uber everywhere. For some that seems dysfunctional. Okay. For others who don't want a car, they don't want the maintenance they don't want. I'm just I'm just using that as an example. But, you know, and so we're looking through the lens of our experiences. What we are, our cognitive biases is so we're looking to this lens that we're saying, for me, this is what I want. And because you like that, it is dysfunctional for you to like it because I don't like it. Yes. And so I am not a proponent of that. I have my own beliefs what works for me and my relationship. But at the end of the day, as a coach, my job is to help you do what works for you, to take you to that place of emotional fulfillment, whatever that looks like. Now, if it's if it's against something that I believe in doing, I will do. But for the most part, my job is I don't know. I often say this, Doc often said, you can't help who you love, but you can help How you love. And that's what I do.

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Dr. Liz:
Yes. And I completely agree. So if somebody is listening and they're like, okay, cool, y'all. But also I don't want to be in the situation ship. Like, I want to go to this next step. What it is you have a post on like the what is that the four steps from booty call to your girlfriend.

 

Coach Ken:
It's her boyfriend. I, I was trying to figure out the wording of that, you know, for people to click on it. But because I was going to say from casual to committed relationship, but I was like not let there be.

 

Dr. Liz:
No click bait so much that Melissa is like, that's what we're using for his the title of his episode.

 

Coach Ken:
Right, right, right.

 

Dr. Liz:
Right, right, right. So what are the steps if somebody is deciding, you know, this just isn't working, I like them more than that, where do they start?

 

Coach Ken:
First thing they've got to do is they've got to decide that this thing that I desire is more important than what I'm doing. Because what will happen is if somebody may say, I want this other thing, but I keep exhibiting the behavior of the thing that I've been doing. And so if I don't want a booty call anymore, but yeah, I keep going over and we're doing everything that you can imagine. Well, what happens is the other person has a mental image. It's almost like what I teach people in terms of your brand. Everybody's got a personal brain, all right? A brand is nothing more than a mental imprint that someone has about who you are, what you do, and what makes you different. Okay, So if my mental imprint about you is if when I think of Dr. Lee is my mental imprint, oh, she comes over at 10:00, 11:00, we do what we do, we might eat. She goes home. She never spends the night. Well, that's the brain that is what your brain represents to me. And so if a person wants to change that, number one, they've got to decide that that the behavior I'm exhibiting has to stop. I've got to cut off the oxygen. Right. Number two, I'm sorry.

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Dr. Liz:
Go have to break down number one for a second, because, I mean, that's a great point. And the other piece of that is that and maybe this maybe I'm getting ahead. So cut me off if if this goes into your next point. But the communication piece of that.

 

Coach Ken:

That's number two. Okay.

 

Dr. Liz:
So again, I said I'll have a point after that.

 

Coach Ken:
That is number two. Number one, you have to decide.

 

Dr. Liz:
Okay, number.

 

Coach Ken:
Two is you must be willing to communicate your decision. Yes. Must be not only communicate your decision, but communicate why you decided. So a lot of people don't say anything. They just say, okay, I'm just go and then I give you my word my way. Oh, I know. Booty call. I'ma just go. And then the other person's like, Wait a minute, what the hell happened? We've been doing this for a year, two years, and now you just they don't understand it. And so what I tell people is I showed them how to communicate it and then tell them why you communicated it. Because a lot of times there was a quick study. I want to tell you just real quickly that they did a study years ago and they said they put I think it 100 people and they said, hey, And they asked the people, would you let me cut in front of you in life? All right. They asked the people, Hey, can I just jump in front of. Right. And only 25% of the people said yes. 21% said yes, you can. You can get in front of me without an explanation. Why is so they added in the explanation why I need to jump in front of you. Can I jump in front of you? My wife is in labor. She's going to the hospital. It jumped all the way up to 88% with just the reasoning why. I want to jump in. Funny, I'm not saying that the person's going in the boot camp. I'm not saying that. But what I am saying is adding the component of why does a couple of things mentally for the person and for you that I want to change this brain.

 

Dr. Liz:
Can we just talk real quick about that 12% of assholes that said no to that said why? You were like, What the fuck is that?

 

Coach Ken:
Right, right, right, right. I get I get it. All right. I do.

 

Dr. Liz:
But yes. So the why what would be an example of a why? Because, you know, I could see that becoming, you know, those really, like long winded like over explaining what would like a concise why look like for somebody.

 

Coach Ken:
Okay, so it's simple I said the truth is I'm like, if you and I are talking and I want to tell you, hey, we got to start smashing up, you know.

 

Dr. Liz:
You're going to call me Doc. And you say that, okay, Yeah, I.

 

Coach Ken:
So I would say to you, the truth is, you know, I care about you. I do. I love I love our physical connection. However, where I am in my life, I want something more. I want an emotional and mental connection that leads to a committed relationship. And as much as I care about you right now, the way we work, the way we interact, it can't happen this way. And I know we started this way, but I no longer it no longer fits into my core values. And that's why I want her back.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, no, and that's perfect. And I think keeping it to that is so important because when I hear my clients, you know, have these type of hard conversations and they start talking in circles and then they, you know, like a lot of the codependency behaviors come out and it becomes this big mess of the other person is like, okay, what are you actually saying going on over? You say, Yeah, so I've seen that.

 

Coach Ken:
I've seen it. I'm like, What the hell did you.

 

Dr. Liz:
Just say it? It makes it so convoluted because it's like, okay, so are we still having sex or not? Like what's going on here versus, you know, just that clarity around like, that's not working for me anymore. That's not what I want. And so then I assume stating what we do want is.

 

Coach Ken:
You know, you always want to stay what you want, do you never want see, And that's a mistake. A lot of people make. And they don't state what they want. They want the other person to figure it out. Okay? And the reason they don't state what they want is because they might not get it. They might not get it. So they're afraid to say it.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, that means rejection. Yeah.

 

Coach Ken:
Yes, yes, yes. And so that's that's how I would do. How do you I got to ask you this, though. When your clients when your clients do that and you know, they're just beating around the bush and you're like, okay, are we there yet? How do you how do you handle that?

 

Dr. Liz:
Oh, I'm I what you see here is what you see and session is what like I'm very upfront and transparent like I will probably give them shit about it. Like, okay, what's your point here? Like, get it, get to the point. Or if they're telling me a story of like, you know, how they handled it with somebody or they're reading me a text of how they handled it, I'll usually be just very transparent of like, okay, where do you think they could have got confused in there? Or like, where do you think you maybe could have like cut that short or done that differently? So, yeah, I'm not one to sugarcoat like we're going to. And because I mean, as you know, especially clients who seek out coaching are usually really motivated for change. And so if we then waste their time with sugarcoating, like that's not a good use of their resources. So how do you how do you call them out?

 

Coach Ken:
Same way. Yeah. They like why would I do that that, that I, I've come to that is effective for me is I'll take the class and so a lot of times when I hear stuff I'm like I don't I don't make any place in that. And they're wondering, well, coach, what do you think? And then I said, Okay, here's what I did this today. I said, All right, let's let's let's do role reversal. I'm the coach. I mean, you're the coach. I'm the class. And I tell and I and I and I go through what they tell me and I say, What do you hear? Hey, looking at me like you really I hear a person who sounds like they're big and who's not being concise. At the point I said, That's what I hear. And then what we do is then we go over exactly how to get to where they want to be, the messaging, all of that kind of stuff. Yeah, So that's.

 

Dr. Liz:
Kind of our in a way that is it. Yeah. I would say statistically speaking, not always, but probably a majority of our clients are going to fall more on the codependency spectrum than the narcissism spectrum because while we know who seeks help, we know who's more likely to take ownership and, you know, narcissistic tendencies, whatever the selfish tendency, we're not seeing a whole lot of that. And so a lot of our clients like they want to make things better, They want to fix things, but they also don't want to hurt anyone's feelings. And so that is so often what I see in my practice. And so a big part of being concise is, is the boundary setting and the being able to say what you mean and mean what you say and know that that doesn't mean you're being mean. There's a lot of things in there, but you know what I mean, that like if you get feels like you're being mean because you're saying like, I know we've been I know we've been only sex for the last year, but that's not working for me anymore. And their mind, they're thinking, well, that's going to hurt their feelings versus how is this making me feel to continue to stay in this dynamic?

 

Coach Ken:
That is so true. That is so true. And so I just got out of communication class that I did for nine weeks. And one of the most important things is that I tell people is you're not responsible for another person's lives than are responsible for their emotions. And what I say because because the truth is, I said your responsibility is to communicate effectively. Right. And so because a lot of us don't communicate, because we're worried about what the other person is going to feel or think, based on what I have to say. And with that thought process, what happens? I keep it to myself. And a lack of communication always leads to miscommunication.

 

Dr. Liz:
Right? And we keep it to ourselves. And so then we stay in situations that make us resentful and then we end up with these this whole host of issues that in a lot of ways we've created and is within our circle of control in a very blunt way. Obviously, there's a lot more nuance to that, but that's also what I try to empower my clients to see, is that if you're not communicating it, then you really are either creating or perpetuating the pain being caused or the hurt being caused because they don't know that.

 

Coach Ken:
So what is so true?

 

Dr. Liz:
I think that's crucial. What's step number three, though?

 

Coach Ken:
So step number three is you have to begin exhibiting the I always call it act as if step three is you begin exhibiting the behaviors based on what you want, not what you were doing. So if if you want a relationship, you've got to start acting like you want a relationship. I'm not coming over your house. And when I have to cut off the oxygen, you know what? We cannot do what it is. And of course, the other person, because your brain is your subconscious is a habitual mind. We've been having sex every week about this time, and you're going to want to do it. You want to go back. So what we have to do is explicitly interrupt the patterns. It's a pattern you've created. And so what I teach them is how we interrupt the pattern and so that you can begin doing something different until we conditioned a new pattern.

 

Dr. Liz:
How do we do that? Like scheduling something during that time or creating distraction or what would be your suggestions for that?

 

Coach Ken:
One of the ways that we that I do it is is, for instance, number one is being conscious of the pattern. Okay, He calls me at this time I want to call him when I get lonely about 10:00. And one of the ways that you interrupt the pattern is by doing something else. Okay, first thing, you've got to be conscious of it. I remember I lost £170 the way £430. And and I remember I used to it wasn't until I recognized my pattern of what I would do something good. I don't know. People eat when they do something bad. Like, like with. But I would eat when I would do something good. I'm like, I bought myself and I didn't realize that it was the pattern and I always felt bad afterwards. And I go through this spiral, you know, the spiral downward. And then what I did when I what I did was I interrupted the pattern is instead of reward myself with food, I go buy myself something about it or piece of jewelry or whatever, because I knew I was going to get addicted to the jury. But it was just interrupt the day, a pattern. And so, yeah, that's been 14 years ago.

 

Dr. Liz:
Wow, that's incredible. That takes a whole lot of self-discipline, willpower, self awareness. I mean, yeah, but.

 

Coach Ken:
I've now I've conditioned a new behavior.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, because.

 

Coach Ken:
I have associates. I've got leverage on myself because it's so much pain with it. And so that's another thing I help them to do, interrupting the pattern by helping them get leverage on themselves. What is it going to cost you if I keep doing this? And so when we get leverage on a person, all it is is this. I just I just I'm back and forth with this, their mind and back and forth. And to all of a sudden I got this sit just they just click one day then coach I'm not will get another man if I keep fucking this man. All right now we're ready to roll.

 

Dr. Liz:
Got him, Got him. And what is set number four then.

 

Coach Ken:
No step number three and four to say.

 

Dr. Liz:
Oh, to say okay.

 

Coach Ken:
And interrupt the pattern. This three.

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Dr. Liz:
Okay.

 

Coach Ken:
Before I begin exhibiting new behavior that I can condition my subconscious mind.

 

Dr. Liz:
Okay, perfect. And that's. I mean, I love that. That's a big part of very similar to the work that I do. It's about self-awareness, identifying. So where is this behavior coming from? Identifying the behaviors that need to change and how to change it, and then allowing time for adaptation. So allowing yourself to get used to, okay, I'm not going to go have sex at 10:00 every Thursday night. Like, yeah, that sucks. But I can adapt to that. We can adapt really to anything. But the other piece of this is that when you are having that conversation with the person, it comes down to this like they have the choice. It's it's an acceptance or change thing. Like they have the choice to either accept that this is what you're saying or they might choose to not be with you anymore. And, and it's that awareness that regardless of what their response is, you already have that awareness going into it and you are confident in what your stance is. I think what happens so frequently is that people will have that conversation and if that's not what the other person wants, then maybe that other person is a pretty effective smooth talker that you know there can be very quickly. Okay, let's just do it one more time and then next week we'll start, you know, something like that that often perpetuates it. So how do you help your clients with that?

 

Coach Ken:
So I have to say, I said, when you fall off the wagon will will happen. Jump back on as quickly as you can. I go back to the weight loss that I had. I remember after I lost weight, I used to go around the country speaking on health and wellness because, you know, just like a person finds God, I want to just tell everybody, right? And so I, I crafted these for these five beliefs, these five tenets that I would live by. And one of the ten number five, the 15 it was this that when you fall off the wagon, I didn't say you notice. I didn't say you said you fell off the wagon, jumped back on as quickly as you can, because here's why. So when I fall off, I go. We go through the cycle, beat myself up, stay up. I might as well eat everything because I've already messed up. So then I started doing all of the behaviors that take you back. The reason why I tell people to get back on the new behavior quickly as possible is because I'm conditioning my mind to the new behavior one time will never kill me. But if I'm rekindle initially, I thought, process a belief system and sort of quickly, the quicker I can get back on, the quicker acting that solidify that conditioning. So so if you go back and you have sex, don't breaches. Okay. Well, let's go from here. What do we do wrong? Let's analyze what happened. He called. I was feeling this. What was going on? Next time, do I need to go over my girls house and stay over over there at night and say that is listed? Did you.

 

Dr. Liz:
Want it? Could you babysit me? So I stopped having wild sex every Thursday night. I mean, that is so true, though. Like, what do you have to put in place? How do you how can you be proactive so that you aren't falling, whether it's with the weight loss or relationships or whatever that behavior is that you're trying to change? When you can identify what the triggers are, you can identify what what the thing that often creates the setback is for you. You can be proactive to that. And so if you know that you're often feeling lonely and that's what's leading you back to it, then have some things in place to prevent that. But on the flip side of this, if somebody is listening and they're like, Nah, that's it. I'm like, This is what I like. I'm into it. It's cool. What suggestions might you have for that? Do you have any suggestions around like boundaries in this type of dynamic or any way to keep it so that it's not impact anyone's mental health?

 

Coach Ken:
So I'm glad you asked that question. Yeah, I see. Everybody always thinks they can beat the system. So he So I had a case like this, So me and you, we got a booty call. I mean, Dr. Lewis, we meet every Thursday. It's great. We both shoot to the moon. All of this. Sure. All of a sudden, Dr. Lee is still kicking it with me. But Dr. Lewis got to see. Meet this other guy. All of a sudden, she had him, but we still doing it or whatever, because this sexually liberated. Okay, I got no problem. I mean, if that's what you are short up. But now I'm getting hot. I'm like, wait a minute, what's up? Because you we had an agreement. Did we or did we? Did we?

 

Dr. Liz:
Right. That's the expectation piece, right?

 

Coach Ken:
Yeah, exactly exactly. And so as long as it worked for me. But if I tried it, if you tried to change the rules because we didn't establish remember that we just said, okay, we got this booty call, we going to just enjoy each other. And so now you got somebody else. And then what I tell people is, see, therein lies the problem. Whatever the expectations, whatever your expectations are, are met. Okay, you're good. But as soon as even in this type of relationship, we still have a relationship. This is still a type of relationship. Yep. And if you're going off with somewhat with a, you know, Joe long leg over there and you're doing it and now Joe, that you you take it a little taken away from me, I'm feeling some kind of way about it. So the dynamics change. So I always tell people this to go back to your original question, let's establish what we do with this stuff is let's communicate. I don't care if we if we're just fucking let's just say we're just fucking you can fuck somebody else. I want somebody else. And that's what it is. But establishing, communicating what you're thinking and all that. Because the one thing that I pride myself on is helping people be good at communication. I've become a great communicator in my marriage, where whereas I wasn't and I understand what communication truly is. It's not what you think. It's it's listening. It's it's getting your message across. It is. It is communicating their message in a way that is effective. So the listener, the receiver can actually hear your intent. It means it's much more than just saying what I'm thinking.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah. And that they can receive it, that it's done in a way that's that sensitive to to them so that they're not immediately on the defense and they're not even hearing what you're saying at all. But I love that you're saying that no matter what the dynamic so booty call situation, ship friends with benefits, it is still a relationship of sorts. And I love to say that because a lot of people it's like, nope, no strings attached. I owe you nothing. Okay. But it's you all are still humans, like it's still two humans interacting with whatever type of agreement that you have. And so the communication is still so important. And and that if there if you're veering outside of whatever that agreement was, then that you are discussing it. And I think that's crucial.

 

Coach Ken:
It is so much, so shameless plug. I got to just shameless plug. Oh, yeah. All right I have been working on a I too for the last five months and I'm almost finished with my programmers. It's called Just See It. And what it does is it helps people communicate better in relationships, dating and in the workplace. So for instance, if you wanted to say something to me, like, I hurt your feelings, you type it into my I to how should I say this in a way that you hurt my feelings about this, this and this, and my two is going to spit out exactly what you can say.

 

Dr. Liz:
That's incredible. Especially because I'm sure you get this a lot, which maybe that's where it kind of came from. So many clients are like, Can you just write me a script to do that? You send me an email and tell me exactly what to say. And I'm like, No, but it sounds like you're like that. That is so beneficial because it is often we forget the I feel statements like all of that. That's yeah, that's incredible. So when, when are you thinking it's going to be done?

 

Coach Ken:
It should be. We're going to have the beta testing this month, probably near the end of the month and be glad to send you a link and please, people can get on and get on the waiting list and and yeah, so we're put a lot of work into it. It's you know it's a lot So but I just believe that no matter what type of relationship that we're in, that it still boils down to, We still need to communicate our needs, our desires, the things that we're feeling, all of those things.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah. So the main takeaway here being if you want to stay with your booty call, have at it. And no one judging you for that. But also make sure you are talking about the expectations around and the specifics of the agreement. And I would say also with that, if you do recognize that maybe the feelings are getting lopsided or the investments getting lopsided, things like that, then that's probably a good time to check in on. This might not be the best thing for your health. And then the flip side, if you want to transition out of that and I love your point about that, then you have to act accordingly. You have to identify that's what you want and start to change behaviors and and then still communicate. So that would that be putting it in a nutshell for.

 

Coach Ken:
I think that's pretty good and I think that's put the bow on it. So I got a question for you. And so you're you're in the dating pool, you're out here.

 

Dr. Liz:
Well, yeah, unfortunately, I am. Not that.

 

Coach Ken:
I gotcha. I guess. So what would you say that is if you had to say one thing, one or two things that is keeping people from getting into meaningful relationships. What would what would you say the biggest thing that you're finding?

 

Dr. Liz:
I think the biggest thing is the grass is always greener with you all. Not just the dating apps, though that contributes, but social media and just the access that we have to so many humans in so many different areas that I think that everyone's kind of waiting for that perfect fit for that. And then they believe that, okay, well, I don't want to settle down here because what if there's something better over here? So I think that that's one of them. And then I would say the other one is just lack of emotional intelligence in general. And that's what often that's that's what makes it a struggle for me when, you know, when I'm talking to someone, if they're not asking questions back or their responses or, good God, I'm going to be single forever because of that.

 

Coach Ken:
So do you ever go into coach mode? You know, who's your date?

 

Dr. Liz:
Oh, my gosh, I want you so bad. My ex-husband is a good friend of mine. The other day. He's like, Why don't you just, like, bring it to their attention that they're doing that? I'm like, Because I'm not their damn coach.

 

Coach Ken:
That's why they're not paying me for that, you know?

 

Dr. Liz:
Right?

 

Coach Ken:
Oh, that's funny.

​

Dr. Liz:
That is so frustrating. But what is your take on that? Why do you think people stay single?

 

Coach Ken:
I think I think you're I think you hit the nail on the head. Really. And and I've been kind of just looking into this, but I think we have so many choices now. You know, it's kind of like when you go to I don't like The Cheesecake Factory because it's.

 

Dr. Liz:
An interesting menu. Yeah.

 

Coach Ken:
With the choices, I think I can't make a choice because I think something's going to be better than the choice that I'm going to make. And then I'm always going to question the choice that I made.

​

Dr. Liz:
Yeah.

 

Coach Ken:
I guess I think you hit the I don't I think you did narrow. And then I also think that people want to judge other harsher than they just themselves.

 

Dr. Liz:
Sure.

 

Coach Ken:
Yeah. I just you know, he can't communicate. Well, I.

 

Dr. Liz:
Mean, can you.

 

Coach Ken:
Well, but he can't communicate well.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah and that's so true that and with how much information is out now that's so accessible on relationships and all of the buzzwords that get thrown around and oh.

 

Coach Ken:
So fast, like.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, there's.

 

Coach Ken:
So many other bread crumbs I need to shit. And I'm like the I don't really know what to say, you know what you're saying?

 

Dr. Liz:
Well, and then they're just everyone's just labeling everybody. And the reality is you're fucked up. This is just going to find somebody else's fucked up ness and you guys are going to work together. Hopefully. Like that is the key. And I talk about that so often, like even myself, like we are all coming into it was something we are struggling with.

 

Dr. Liz:
Something. The best thing to look for is somebody with self-awareness and the ability to take accountability for whatever their fucked up ness is. You know that they're willing to work on that. If you find that, like you hit the jackpot.

 

Coach Ken:
I love that. That that's self-awareness and emotional intelligence.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yes, absolutely. So, Coach Ken, where can people find you? How can people get in contact with you?

 

Coach Ken:
Well, I'm everywhere. You can find me. I'm on all the social media platforms. How are you going to do that? Coach Kincannon, Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, and Tik Tok and oh, you can just hit me on my website. Head coach Kim Canyon dot com. And let's connect. I'm excited. Thank you so much for having me here.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yes. No, thank you so much for being here. This was such a fun conversation and very enlightening for myself included. So thanks again.

 

Coach Ken:
I appreciate it.

 

Dr. Liz:
Thanks again, Ken, for joining me and for all that booty call knowledge. And thank you all for hanging out. Unrelatable relationships unfiltered. Make sure to subscribe to our YouTube channel, Sign up for my newsletter and find me on Instagram at Dr. Elizabeth Fedrick.