Relatable podcast 

Dr. Liz:
And as a couples counselor, I get it in plenty of my own conflict and have plenty of my own struggle, because even knowing the knowledge doesn't, when your nervous system is activated that you can know everything, it doesn't mean it always translates.

 

Dr. Lisa Arango:
It's like trying to read the, you know, the owner's manual or the instruction manual when you've jumping out of an airplane and trying to learn how to open the chute like you can't because you're in fear. Like when are you going to be like, okay, I'm supposed to use an ice statement right now? Like what? You know, that's really how you are.

 

Dr. Liz:
This is Relatable Relationships Unfiltered. Hey, welcome to Relatable. Relationships unfiltered. Today, I'm hanging out with Dr. Lisa Arango, millennial marriage expert. We chat all about how to have a happy marriage, even through the busiest stages of life. And Lisa gives us tons of takeaways, including funny that I plan to start using. So, Lisa, millennial marriage expert. What does that mean? Like. Break that down for me a little bit. And I'm sure millennials, I mean, have their own very niche set of concerns. So tell me what that means.

 

Dr. Lisa Arango:
Well, hi. Sort of like honed in on this kind of generational you know, kind of framework for focusing. The work that I do is really from my own experience. So I'll answer that question is like I'm a millennial, right? So I've been married for 25 years. I have two kids. I have a my daughter is 20 and my son is 16. God help me when he's out driving around. So I, I recall vividly and still have I learned so much from that period of where the millennial generation is now, kind of that like build and grow phase of life where so much is transitioning? I mean, you're you're you're building a career, you're looking for a life time partner, you're getting married, you're the wedding that then it's the babies and then it's the house. And. And I wanted to have it all, you know, I was I am a professional woman. And I had I've been a professor of psychology for 20 years. I was running on private practice. I had, you know, my two kids, two dogs, a husband, like all of that. And it was a lot. And I learned so much. And I really just have such a heart for so many of my clients that are going through all of that now and understand those challenges. And that that's really when, in my opinion and in my experience, where marriage is either they make it or break it because a lot of times they'll just kind of stay together, you know, through all of that. And then they wake up one day, their kids go off to college, or sometimes they just go off to middle school and they're like, Who the hell are you? Right, right.

 

Dr. Liz:
Right. Yeah. And I completely agree. And he's even as you're saying that I think about the clients that I sit with all the time who talk about, you know, as you're describing, it's like this quintessential, like, perfect life, right? Like you have the two kids and the two dogs and the home and the career and you have all these things. And then we don't also hold space for all of the stress that comes along with that and all of the pressure and all of the chaos. And when I think about my clients so often we talk, often talk about and I can completely relate to this as well, we're so overwhelmed by this perfect life, but we feel like we can't express that because then that makes us ungrateful or entitled or like, What's wrong with you that you should be so happy? But we really don't put like acknowledgment or normalize that All of that stuff is a lot of work and takes a really big toll on our relationships.

 

Dr. Lisa Arango:
Absolutely. And we lose we lose sight of it because I always say that marriages are always important, but they're not urgent until they become urgent. And it's so easy. It's like we get you know, you know, I always dreamed of, like, the happily ever after. I couldn't wait to get married and have kids. And I was just like, okay, like a checklist. Okay, Finish college, check married, check, Have kids check. It's like just checking things off the list and then not prioritizing, which is really what I want to like. That's the anthem of like, really prioritizing your your relationship, your marriage. Like that is that is the glue, that is the cradle that holds your children and your family together. And if your marriage falls apart, it all falls apart. Your career could fall apart. There's so many consequences to losing your relationship. I mean, that's ultimately if you divorce, but even if you stay together. I recently wrote a blog post and I actually did a real on this on Instagram about the about quiet quitting your marriage, which I see a lot of that. It's just like you're you're fighting for change. You're fighting for change. You give up, you stay married. You kind of just put your focus on other things, your kids, your career. You stop turning to each other for support and then you just kind of like you check out and it's just like, Yeah.

 

Dr. Liz:
And I think that's probably I know for me, that's a lot of the couples that I work with as that's usually when they get to that point of it's the roommates, it's the ships passing in the night and that intimacy, all emotional, physical, all of it has really it's gone. It's been depleted. But because it's such a slow burn to get to that place, you know, we don't usually catch it until it's that far gone. And then at that point, it's really deciding, you know, does it make does it make sense to try to figure this out? Does it make sense to say we've grown apart? How do you help your clients to navigate through that when they come in and they're like, Hey, we're roommates, There's not a whole lot else going on. Where do you start with that?

 

Dr. Lisa Arango:
Well, first of all, I love when people come in and they are aware like they want to work on it. You know, they didn't just remain roommates because hopefully that couple that comes in at that point, you know, I see that marriages don't crumble in a day similar to what you're saying. We go through this process of first like this disconnection and then this like disengagement over time. So where I try to start with them is really understanding like, first of all, like the first set that I do with all my couples is how do we get here? I look at marriages that are in trouble as stuck and not broken, like how do we get stuck place? How do we start to grow apart? Because the real thing that kills a marriage is the disconnection. It's not the conflict, it's the disconnection and the emotional distance that you have between us. So that's that kind of that roommate kind of sense. You get caught up like what we're saying, especially again in that millennial generation, you get caught up with all the stuff and the, you know, the social life and the playdates and the, you know, all the activities the kids are doing. And then also you have the career and all that. And it's just like you're just always you become, I say, roommates, but also coworkers. It's just like you're we're just taking care of of a house and some kids and all the interactions become very transactional and, you know, and then you go to bed at night, you're exhausted and you get up and do it again.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah. And that becomes really confusing for a lot of people who are really good partners. But when we think partners, we mean business partners or transactional part. You know, we they are really good at doing life together, but they're not lovers. They don't have that. The chemistry, the spark, that connection, the intimacy. And I think that gets really confusing for a lot of people because they're like, Well, why would we not be together? Because we function fine. We, you know, have the dual income. We take good care of our kids together. That is, I think, a really conflicting place to be.

 

Dr. Lisa Arango:
It is. It isn't. It's not. It's not just the you know, couples will say, yeah, we're just roommates, but it's usually one person that is not okay with that. And they're the ones that have been pushing for a change for a really long time. And it's really the conflict that that has drawn the conflict is what drives the distance. Yes, we're talking about the busyness of life and all that kind of stuff. But it's also the the conflicts over time because you can get in fights about those things. You know, like you're my husband is not helping me enough. He's not doing the dishes enough or he's not supporting me enough. And then what you kind of start to say to yourself about that, you know, what's happening, the conflict, the way you address that. How do you talk to your husband when you don't feel supported, when you need your help and then what is that? How does he hear that? And then how does he respond? You know, and so then, like, the real work that I do is helping people to understand and going back to the place where we start, okay, you're like roommates, but how did you get stuck here? And most likely you got stuck here because you've been in this. You've been in these communication and conflict cycles for so long that you haven't been able to really communicate what your needs are to each other. So the busyness is one thing, but it's also that conflict. And they can't they can't connect. They can't reach each other at this point.

 

Dr. Liz:
What do you see are some of the biggest communication barriers with your clients? So even and then on top of that, what are some tools you give them to redirect that? And I completely agree that that is often, you know, what is being said is not always what's being heard. And then there's all the contextual stuff. And so how do you usually start when you're recognizing this communication barrier?

 

Dr. Lisa Arango:
Well, it's it's not only just a barrier, it's more of a cycle. So it's a process. It's not about like you know, skills and tools are really important. There's actually, you know, excellent communication tools and skills we can use. But when you're in adult romantic relationship with this person and, you know, I'd like to like maybe we could talk about like some of the assumptions that go into like, what does it mean to have that kind of bond with somebody? But when you're in that kind of relationship with somebody, there's something going on there beneath what you see on the surface. And so when you get in the fights and then you get triggered into this dance with your partner and you don't really know what's going on. So it's instead of just the skills, it's really about understanding what's going on on the surface, like how to what's going on, how do we get caught up, how do we trigger each other, how do we get into this dance? You know, I call it the crazy eight because it's just like a loop that goes around and around. What does that look like in your conflict cycle? So dissecting all of that and understanding, okay, this is what happens. And then after that is really understanding what's what's driving all that at a deeper level. And so more than the skills.

 

Dr. Liz:
So a lot of this being EFT based, it sounds like is yes so and that is very similar to so we're talking about a couple of couples counseling modality that is really rooted in attachment and triggers and understanding what is driving these responses. And I do a I do a very similar approach with my clients. I generally start with a timeline for each of them so that we can understand the themes very similarly to what you're saying, so that when we recognize, okay, why does Joe keep getting triggered about the same thing? And then his reaction triggers Sally in the same way. When we have that timeline and we can understand the themes of the trauma, whether it was abandonment, rejection, perfectionism, we know we have a better understanding of where that's coming from, which that enlightenment, well, we can look at it as like Joe is not just trying to be a dick. Joe feels like you're being critical, like his mother was for his entire life. That really gives a different spin, a different twist to the situation. Who?

 

Dr. Lisa Arango:
Yeah, 100%. Because you don't recognize, you know, intention and impact are two different things. You don't we don't recognize the impact that we have on our partners and work. And then on the other side of that, we're not ever intentionally. I mean, if you love somebody, you're not intentionally trying to drive them away or hurt them. Yeah, right. So it's like really understanding, like, what are those? You know, we all come into our marriage, our relationships with these invisible emotional wounds, like nobody leaves childhood or relationships unscathed. You know, it's not like our parents tried to do something or it's not it's not about blaming, but it's like, how do we adopt? What do we tell ourselves? How do we explain things to ourselves growing up? And then we we have we all have these emotional wounds and they're invisible and they're hidden, and there's usually some shame around that. And so we adapt to it, and we have covers for that. And the ways that we protect ourselves from those wounds with our partner is usually what gets in the way, because it's usually what drives that conflict, because we're when we get triggered, we go into protection mode. I call it our fear language, which our partner doesn't understand, and then that triggers them into their fear language. And now we're talking about, you know, it's like when we're got into a fight about the dishes, but now it turns into the same fight we always get into about our relationship. You don't care about my feelings. You're never here for me. Well, you never think I can do anything, right? You're always complaining. I'm never. I'm always failing in this relationship. Right? And then you forget. Like what were we even fighting about? And then it always ends the same way.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, And those adaptive child tendencies that most certainly do come up that, you know, we develop up, as you're saying, we develop these protective mechanisms in childhood to survive that environment, to find a way to not feel as overwhelmed or as rejected or as abandoned when our when our parents really can't show up for us emotionally in the way that we need. And we take that with us. But as you're saying, invisibly into our adult relationships. And so for a lot of people, and that's where a lot of the attachment style comes in and that might be withdrawing and isolating. And for other people, that's like finding and trying like overly chasing that attention, which ultimately exacerbates this cycle. And when you catch that, that's what's going on for people. So and I love that even the terminology of the fear language, I think that that's very smart in terms of helping people to understand. Again, you're not necessarily trying to intentionally be hurtful or, you know, aggressive or whatever the case, but you are afraid. Where do you take them from there? Like how you create this awareness for both of them around their fear languages. And then what, what do you do with that?

 

Dr. Lisa Arango:
Well, that's after that long process. It's really about developing safety between the couple because in order for them to really speak this what I call a new language, it's like the secret language of love, you know, because that fear language, you, you we all come into, it's the fight, the fight, the freeze, whatever you get, whatever you do, whatever, however you protect yourself, that's how you speak in your fear language. But then then what is the language of love? Like, how do we how do we reach our partner? How do we connect different than the love languages? Do they even talk about like, okay, we have these love languages, you know what they are, but why can I get them when I need it, when I need those words of affirmation or when I need that affection? Why can't I get that from you? And it's really because you're not speaking the language of love that signals that sends a really clear signal, emotional signal to your partner about what it is that you need in that moment. Because even, you know, we're never more vulnerable than when we are in need of something. Right. And so to be able to put your need out there and say, hey, I really need a hug right now, I really need you to just come be with me in a very direct way is risky, right? Because I could get hurt. You could say no, you could reject me, you could turn away. And then here I would be in all this vulnerability. So a lot of the times without even knowing, we we ask for our needs to be met in these ways that are that are wrapped in criticism. Like you never want to come spend time with me, are you? You're not that affectionate or you haven't been very present lately. You know, when there's underneath those criticisms are these needs that come out. So I want to help them to establish that safety, first of all, to to agree and to understand like what is what is the relationship all about. And as human beings, like how do we come into our relationship, you know, with assumptions like that? We are, you know, as Brené Brown says, that we are hardwired for connection and that there's no shame in needing and that we do depend on each other. We depend on each other for nurturing, for soothing and protection with another person. And I call that your MIP, your most important person, and you have to acknowledge that that doesn't make you weak or needy or something's wrong with you for depending on that person. And so there's all kind of ways that we don't want to acknowledge that and how we deal with that. So I help them to understand like, that's okay and that's how we are hardwired and we actually need each other. And it's okay to depend on each other. That affective dependency where you trust your partner actually creates more autonomy because you don't have to worry about the relationship you can go out and like have a career and have a life and all of those things. So try to give some education around how we are just hardwired and then help them to take down those walls, understand where they go when they are in protection and to be able to talk to their partner about that. And instead of talking about, you know, the dishes or, you know, being critical in how they're delivering their message, I try to coach them through that in real time when they are critical to really deep, deep down into what are the feelings, what are the needs, because it all comes down to that. And as longings that we have for connection, what is that fear that we have right now? And ultimately it's abandonment or rejection at an ultimate level. And yeah, and you have that need. You want to be seen, you want to be supportive, you want to be soothed, you want to be loved, accepted, know that you're enough, know that you're not too much. That's usually what's driving the conflict. So being able to talk about those things in a way that is vulnerable.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yes. Yeah. And when you look at it through the lens of I'm a big proponent of really assisting each individual to see their role in something. You know, I think it is really common that we end up giving labels to ourselves and to each other in a relationship. So there is the anxious one and there's the avoidant one, there's the needy one, and there's the independent one and there's the bad guy and there's the victim. And I see this so common and with the couples that I work with and I help them to identify that because I think that when those roles are established of like, you're the asshole and you're the victim, you're going to live up to that every time you face conflict, every time something comes up. But when we can really identify, those are the roles you've been living in because that made sense to you at some point. But that's really not helping you, you know, and helping them to take ownership of how they are showing up and how that impacting the relationship. And so all of that to say that when we think about a conflict or we let's even think about somebody expressing a need and we're creating safety around this. How do you help the person who is expressing the need to do it in a safe way? And then how do you help the person who is receiving the need to do that in a safe way? Because as you and I both know that there's plenty of opportunity for rupture even in that like 2.4 seconds of that exchange.

 

Dr. Lisa Arango:
Yeah. Well, yeah, no, it's it's difficult, right? Because at any moment, one of them could get triggered. Right? You're trying to create a safe space and you're trying to, like, draw one partner out and saying, it's okay, it's okay. Come out. You know, So for the partner that's going to be sharing a need and a fear that they may have, I try to help them to talk. You know, I see that there's you know, we can talk about our feelings, like telling somebody how you feel is not vulnerability, showing someone how you feel. That's vulnerability. So I try to help the person who is having this big fear, this hurt, this feeling of rejection, whatever it might be, to really get in touch with that feeling. So to not talk about it from a place of like, you know, because we can say, Well, I'm really sad right now. Of course I'm sad. You know, you didn't show up like you said. You want to get a person reading because emotions have action tendencies and anger. If they see me angry, anger pushes people away. If person who loves and cares about me most in the world sees me sad, I mean, if my husband sees me sad, I don't even have to tell. I don't even have to ask him for what I need because he knows he comes close and he soothes me. And that's like it just happens, you know? That is the first part.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah. So I love that. So for the person that is sharing their experience, for them to really tap into the authenticity of what they are sharing and to lower their defenses and to lower their guard and to come from a soft place. And I think that's a great suggestion. And, you know, the the infamous is statements and all of that is part of it that we're not coming from a place of you never spent time with me, but instead I feel lonely when we don't get time together in the evenings. So I love that. Okay. So that's for the person sending the message that they're really trying to get there to line up with, with the expression.

 

Dr. Lisa Arango:
Right to be in that. And I first, you know, I kind of warm them up by coming. So I have to have a really strong rapport with them. They have to feel really safe with me. So I'll start with the person, you know, who's in the sharing speaking role to first take a risk with me because I'm you know, I'm not a high stakes person for them, but they know their partner sitting in the room. So it's first like, you know, tell me about it. And then so they're out. It's like they're kind of, you know, like emotionally naked. Okay. And I'll be like, okay, sit here for a minute and then turn to their partner and be like, Do you want to know? Like, do you want to know what she needs from you right now in this moment? What's happening for you right now when you're hearing her talk like this? Because usually you see her coming from this angry place. You see her angry right now? No, I see her side. I see her. You know, I see her more vulnerable right now. And so I I make sure that he's open. I'm talking about this. This is that the woman is the speaker. Megan's husband is open and ready. And so she hears that. And it's amazing when I ask a person to turn to their partner and say to them exactly what they just said to me. They I have so many clients, they can't do it. They can't do it. Yeah.

 

Dr. Liz:
What do you think that's about?

 

Dr. Lisa Arango:
It's fear, because the risk is if I turn right now and I tell you what I need, there's so much history and context in this relationship. There's been so many experiences where I think that I was vulnerable with you, but I probably wasn't. I think I was vulnerable with you and you rejected me. And it hurts so bad that I can't. I can't go there again.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah. And that receiver, how do you get them to be able to start receiving it in a safe way? And even in the scenario you're describing, how are you prepping them and, you know, just really getting them ready to be safe in that moment?

 

Dr. Lisa Arango:
Well, again, it's like checking in with them before. So I got the one partner ready to share and then before I asked them to. There's also just a lot of so much energy going on in the room and a lot of just nonverbals. I mean, I look sometimes they'll just see tears in their eyes because they've never seen this before or this is what I've always wanted. They don't even have to say a thing. Sometimes one partner will just reach out like it's again, you don't even have to say anything when they see their partner vulnerable and they sense that that's that, you know, the hard wiring, that's that like co regulation, that nervous system. It's like you just want to reach for the other person. And a lot of times I don't even have to say anything. It'll just happen. One partner will just reach for the other person. They'll put their arm around them. They'll want the tears from their eye. They'll let them know, you know, I want to talk to you. I want to hear from you. And if it's not safe, then we then then I would slow that down. And sometimes it's just for the person in the speaker role to talk about the fear. So. So you can't turn to him right now. That's just too hard, you know? Tell me about what is keeping you from doing that. What is that? What is the fear? Well, if I turn to him, he's going to do that thing. He always does. He's going to be he's just going to tell me what I need to hear or he's probably rolling his eyes right now and doesn't want to hear what I have to say. So you're scared that if you turn over to him right now that he's going to reject you the way he's done so many times in the past and then say, can you can you talk about that? Can you just tell him about that fear? And that's like usually a lot riskier, less risky than saying what I need and what I what I actually am afraid of.

 

Dr. Liz:
Sure. And I love that approach. And I usually then add on to that, like what? What are you meaning? Like what? What could be a safe response, which when they're then sharing that with you, you know, they can be more open because to your point, it's easier to be more open with you. But the beautiful part is their partner is sitting there and they're listening to that, that what do they need? And I think that by preparing the receiving partner with knowing I'm a big fan of the prefacing and the disclaimers and the giving them upfront, when I when I talk to couples about even when you take your partner a need or when you take them a hardship or something, you're struggling with, if you already know what you need, start with that. If you're in a space to do that because that is really setting your partner up, then to be able to support you and to show up, but not have to play mind games in that moment, not have to be a mind reader or not have to. You don't have to risk rejection. It's literally like, I want to share something with you. I'm having a really hard time. Can you please just nurture me and baby me and dote on me and just tell me everything's going to be okay, you know, versus let me tell you, this really hard thing. And then their partner might come back with, okay, well, what about this perspective? And then we know how that goes. Like, you never support me, you never meet my needs. Never. So when we can prepare our partner in advance with what is needed, I find that to be really beneficial.

 

Dr. Lisa Arango:
Definitely. Yeah, but. And it sounds so, so simple. But it's so. It's so not easy.

 

Dr. Liz:
Because I don't have easy.

 

Dr. Lisa Arango:
Like the person. Like there's so much resistance to telling our partner what I want. Like, I've heard. I'm sure you've heard it all, Liz. The same thing. Well, if I tell him what I want, then he's just doing it because I told him so. It's not really authentic. Or he should just know what I want. He's been with me for years. If he really knew me, he would just know what I want. I shouldn't have to tell him. Like, there's just so much of that resistance. And again, it goes back to what I was saying earlier. There's a vulnerability there. Like if I ask you for what I need, then it makes me vulnerable. Am I? Do you see me need? Am I needed now? Or like, you know, especially if the way I protect myself and my invisible wounds are about feeling like I was needy? Then I show up in a relationship. I'm tough. I got it. I got it all together. I don't need anybody. I don't need you. I'm better off alone. I'm good, you know, right? Yeah. Yeah.

 

Dr. Liz:
My push back to that when? Yes, of course. As couples therapist, we get that all the time. My pushback usually to that is. Yes. And you've been with them for 20 years and they have not yet done the thing you need. So you should also know them as a couples counselor. I get it in plenty of my own conflict and have plenty of my own struggle because even knowing the knowledge doesn't, when your nervous system is activated that you can know everything, it doesn't mean it always translates.

 

Dr. Lisa Arango:
It's like trying to read the, you know, the owner's manual or the instruction manual when you've jumping out of an airplane and trying to learn how to open the chute like you can't because you're in fear. Like, what are you going to be like, okay, I'm supposed to use an ice statement right now? Like what? You know, that's really bad. You know.

 

Dr. Liz:
This is relatable relationships, unfiltered. Hey, welcome to Relatable Relationships unfiltered. Today, I'm hanging out with Dr. Lisa Ringo, millennial marriage expert. We chat all about how to have a happy marriage, even through the busiest stages of life. And Lisa gives us tons of takeaways, including plenty that I plan to start using. So, Lisa, millennial marriage expert. Yeah, what's that mean? Like break that down for me a little bit. And I'm sure millennials, I mean, have their own very niche set of concerns. So tell me what that means.

 

Dr. Lisa Arango:
Well, hi. Sort of like honed in on this kind of generational, you know, kind of a framework for focusing. The work that I do is really from my own experience. So I'll answer that question is like I'm a post millennial, right? So I've been married for 25 years. I have two kids. I have a my daughter is 20 and my son is 16. God help me when he's driving around. So I, I recall vividly and still have I learned so much from that period of where the millennial generation is now, kind of that like build and grow phase of life where so much is transitioning? I mean, you're you're you're building a career, you're looking for a lifetime partner, you're getting married, you're the wedding that then it's the babies and then it's the house. And and I wanted to have it all. You know, I was I am a professional woman. I had I've been a professor of psychology for 20 years. I was running a private practice. I had my two kids, two dogs, a husband, like all of that. And it was a lot. And I learned so much and I really just have such a heart for so many of my clients that are going through all of that now and understand those challenges. And that that's really when, in my opinion and in my experience, where marriages either they make it or break it, because a lot of times they'll just kind of stay together, you know, through all of that. And then they wake up one day, their kids go off to college, or sometimes they just go off to middle school and they're like, Who the hell are you? Right, right.

 

Dr. Liz:
Right. Yeah. And I completely agree. And he's even as you're saying that I think about the clients that I sit with all the time who talk about, you know, as you're describing, it's like this quintessential like, perfect life, right? Like you have the two kids and the two dogs and the home and the career and you have all these things. And then we don't also hold space for all of the stress that comes along with that and all of the pressure and all of the chaos. And when I think about my clients so often we talk often talk about and I can completely relate to this as well, we're so overwhelmed by this perfect life, but we feel like we can't express that because then that makes us ungrateful or entitled or like, What's wrong with you that you should be so happy? But we really don't put like acknowledgment or normalize that. All of that stuff is a lot of work and takes a really big toll on our relationships.

 

Dr. Lisa Arango:
Absolutely. And we lose we lose sight of it because I always say that marriages are always important, but they're not urgent until they become urgent. And it's so easy. It's like we get, you know, you know, I always dreamed of like, the happily ever after. I couldn't wait to get married and have kids. And I was just like, okay, like a checklist. Okay, Finish college, check. Married, check, have kids check. It's like just checking things off the list and then not prioritizing, which is really what I want to like. That's the anthem of like, really prioritizing your your relationship, your marriage. Like that is that is the glue, that is the cradle, the hold your children and your family together. And if your marriage falls apart, it all falls apart. Your career could fall apart. There's so many consequences to losing your relationship. I mean, that's ultimately if you divorce, but even if you stay together. I recently wrote a blog post and I actually did a real on this on Instagram about the about quiet quitting your marriage, which I see a lot of that. It's just like you're you're fighting for change. You're fighting for change. You give up, you stay married. You kind of just put your focus on other things, your kids, your career. You stop turning to each other for support and then you just kind of like you check out and it's just like, Yeah.

 

Dr. Liz:
And I think that's probably I know for me, that's a lot of the couples that I work with as that's usually when they get to that point. But it's the roommates, the ships passing in the night and that intimacy, all emotional, physical, all of it has really it's gone, it's been depleted. But because it's such a slow burn to get to that place. You know, we don't usually catch it until it's that far gone. And then at that point, it's really deciding, you know, does it make does it make sense to try to figure this out? Does it make sense to say we've, you know, grown apart? How do you help your clients to navigate through that when they come in and they're like, Hey, we're roommates, There's not a whole lot else going on. Where do you start with that?

 

Dr. Lisa Arango:
Well, first of all, I love when people come in and they are aware like they want to work on it. You know, they didn't just remain roommates because hopefully that couple that comes in at that point, you know, I see that marriage is don't crumble in a day similar to what you're saying. We go through this process of first like this disconnection and then this like disengagement over time. So where I try to start with them is really understanding like, first of all, like the first step that I do with all my couples is how do we get here? I look at marriages that are trouble as stuck and not broken, like how do we get stuck place? How do we start to grow apart? Because the real thing that kills a marriage is the disconnection. It's not the conflict, it's the disconnection and the emotional distance that you have between us. So that's that kind of that roommate kind of sense. You get caught up like we we're saying, especially again in that millennial generation, you get caught up with all the stuff and the, you know, and the social life and the playdates and the, you know, all the activities the kids are doing. And then also you have the career and all that. And it's just like you're just always you become, I think, roommates, but also coworkers, it's just like you're where does taking care of a of a house and some kids and all the interactions become very transactional and, you know, and then you go to bed at night, you're exhausted and you get up and do it again.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah. And that becomes really confusing for a lot of people who are really good partners. But when we think partners, we mean business partners or transactional part. You know, we they are really good at doing life together, but they're not lovers. They don't have that. The chemistry, the spark, that connection, the intimacy. And I think that gets really confusing for a lot of people because they're like, Well, why would we not be together? Because we function fine. We, you know, have the dual income. We take good care of our kids together. That is, I think, a really conflicting place to be.

 

Dr. Lisa Arango:
It is. It is. And it's not it's not just the you know, couples will say, yeah, we're just roommates, but it's usually one person that is not okay with that. And they're the ones that have been pushing for change for a really long time. And it's really the conflict that that has drawn the conflict is what drives the distance. Yes, we're talking about the busyness of life and all that kind of stuff. But it's also the the conflicts over time because you can get in fights about, those things, you know, like you're my husband's not helping me enough. He's not doing the dishes enough or he's not supporting me enough. And then what you kind start to say to yourself about that, you know, what's happening, the conflict, the way you address that. How do you talk to your husband when you don't feel supported, when you need your help? And then what is that? How does he hear that? And then how does he respond? You know, and so then, like, the real work that I do is helping people to understand and going back to the place where we start, okay, you're like roommates, but how did you get stuck here? And it's likely you got stuck here because you've been in these you've been in these communication and conflict cycles for so long that you haven't been able to really communicate what your needs are to each other. So the busyness is one thing, but it's also that conflict. And they can't they can't connect. They can't reach each other at this point.

 

Dr. Liz:
What do you see are some of the biggest communication barriers with your clients? So even and then on top of that, what are some tools you give them to redirect that? And I completely agree that that is often what is being said is not always what's being heard. And then there's all the contextual stuff. And so how do you usually start when you're recognizing this communication barrier?

 

Dr. Lisa Arango:
Well, it's it's not only just a barrier, it's more of a cycle. So it's a process. It's not about like, you know, skills and tools are really important. There's actually, you know, excellent communication tools and skills we can use. But when you're in adult romantic relationship with this person and, you know, I'd like to like maybe we could talk about like some of the assumptions that go into like, what does it mean to have that kind of bond with somebody? But when you're in that kind of relationship with somebody, there's something going on there beneath what you see on the surface. And so when you get in the fights and then you get triggered into this dance with your partner and you don't really know what's going on. So instead of just the skills, it's really about understanding what's going on on the surface, like how do what's going on, how do we get caught up, how do we trigger each other? How do we get into this dance? You know, I call it the crazy eight because it's just like a loop that goes around and around. What does that look like in your conflict cycle? So dissecting all of that and understanding okay, this is what happens. And then after that is really understanding what's what's driving all that at a deeper level. And so more than the skills.

 

Dr. Liz:
So a lot of this being EFT based, it sounds like is yes so and that is very similar to so we're talking about a couple of couples counseling modality that is really rooted in attachment and triggers and understanding what is driving these responses. And I do a I do a very similar approach with my clients. I generally start with a timeline for each of them so that we can understand the themes very similarly to what you're saying, so that when we recognize, okay, why does Joe keep getting triggered about the same thing? And then his reaction triggers Sally in the same way. When we have that timeline and we can understand the themes of the trauma, whether it was abandonment, rejection, perfectionism, we know we have a better understanding of where that's coming from, which that enlightenment. Well, we can look at it as like Joe is not just trying to be a dick. Joe feels like you're being critical, like his mother was for his entire life. That really gives a different spin, a different twist to the situation.

 

Dr. Lisa Arango:
Yeah 100%. Because you don't recognize, you know, intention and impact are two different things. You don't we don't recognize the impact that we have on our partners and work. And then on the other side of that, we're not ever intentionally. I mean, if you love somebody, you're not intentionally trying to drive them away or hurt them. Yeah, right. So it's like really understanding, like, what are those? You know, we all come into our marriage, our relationships with these invisible emotional wounds, like nobody leaves childhood or relationships unscathed. You know, it's not like our parents tried to do something or it's not it's not about blaming, but it's like, how do we adopt? What do we tell ourselves? How do we explain things to ourselves growing up? And then we we have we all have these emotional wounds and they're invisible and they're and there's usually some shame around that. And so we adapt to it, and we have covers for that. And the ways that we protect ourselves from those wounds with our partner is usually what gets in the way because is usually what drives that conflict, because we're when we get triggered, we go into protection mode. I call it our fear language, which our partner doesn't understand, and then that triggers them into their fear language. And now we're talking about, you know, it's like when we're going into a fight about the dishes, but now it turns into the same fight we always get into about our relationship. You don't care about my feelings. You're never here for me. Well, you never think I can do anything, right? You're always complaining. I'm never. I'm always failing in this relationship. Right? And then you forget, like, what are we even fighting about? And then it always ends the same way.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah. And those adaptive child tendencies that most certainly do come up that, you know, we develop, as you're saying, we develop these protective mechanisms in childhood to survive that environment, to find a way to not feel as overwhelmed or as rejected or as abandoned when our when our parents really can't show up for us emotionally in the way that we need. And we take that with us. But as you're saying, invisibly into our adult relationships. And so for a lot of people, and that's where a lot of the attachment style comes in and that might be withdrawing and isolating. And for other people, that's like finding and trying like overly chasing that attention which ultimately exacerbates this cycle. And when you catch that, that's what's going on for people. So and I love that even the terminology of the fear language, I think that that's very smart in terms of helping people to understand again, you're not necessarily trying to intentionally be hurtful or, you know, aggressive or whatever the case, but you are afraid. Where do you take them from there, Like how you create this awareness for both of them around their fear languages. And then what? What do you do with that?

 

Dr. Lisa Arango:
Well, that's a after that long process, it's really about developing safety between the couple because in order for them to really speak this what I call a new language, it's like the secret language of love, you know, because that fear language, you, you, we all come into, it's the fight. The fight, the freeze, whatever you get, whatever you do, whatever, however you protect yourself, that's how you speak in your fear language. But then then what is the language of love? Like, how do we how do we reach our partner? How do we connect different than the love languages? Because I even talk about like, okay, we have these love languages, you know what they are, but why can I get them when I need it, when I need those words of affirmation or when I need that affection? Why can't I get that from you? And it's really because you're not speaking the language of love that signals that sends a really clear signal, emotional signal to your partner about what it is that you need in that moment. Because even, you know, we're never more vulnerable than when we are in need of something. Right. And so.