Relatable podcast 

Transcript:

Melissa Urban:
We tend to apologize or overexplain or over justify. I'm so sorry. I can't meet at three tomorrow. I have like a really busy day. And boy, if I tried to squeeze it in, it would. But, like, maybe I could squeeze it in. But no, I can't meet at three tomorrow house, 2:00 tomorrow afternoon. That is not rude.

00;00;15;23 - 00;00;28;18
Melissa Urban:
And the more we practice that, I kind of talk about like channel your mediocre white man at work. How would a mediocre white man say this? Would they apologize? Would they be wishy washy? No. They'd be like, I can't meet at three house to tomorrow.

00;00;28;18 - 00;01;07;25
Dr. Liz:
Do that without a fuck in the world. This is relatable. Relationships, unfiltered. Hey, welcome to Relatable Relationships Unfiltered. Today I'm hanging out with Melissa Urban, co-founder and CEO of Whole30 and New York Times best selling author. We're talking all about social media's favorite word boundaries. So one of the probably most overused words on social media, yet probably the least actually understood boundaries.

00;01;07;27 - 00;01;12;01
Dr. Liz:
What the hell are they like? How would you how do you even define them?

00;01;12;02 - 00;01;30;07
Melissa Urban:
Doesn't it feel like boundaries have just like popped off in social media? If you're on the therapy side of TikTok, which I have been for a long time. It feels like boundaries are everywhere and I do think that people are talking about them now more than ever, which is so good, it's so good, it's so helpful. But I also think that people still don't really have a good understanding of what they actually are.

00;01;30;10 - 00;01;52;07
Melissa Urban:
So I describe boundaries as limits that you set around how you allow other people to engage with you. So I think one of the biggest misconceptions about boundaries is that they're about telling other people what to do, and that's not at all true. Boundaries. Tell other people what I am willing to do to keep myself safe and healthy.

00;01;52;10 - 00;02;15;10
Dr. Liz:
Yeah, and I think that's such a great point. I heard a distinction between boundaries and an ultimatum and kind of describe that way that an ultimatum is really to control the other person's behavior or to control the other person as a whole. And boundaries are like you're saying about our circle of control, which is a huge term that I use in like all of my therapy sessions, Circle of Control.

00;02;15;17 - 00;02;18;14
Dr. Liz:
What do you think about that distinction? Does that feel true to you?

00;02;18;16 - 00;02;45;09
Melissa Urban:
It's so it's really interesting because I think an ultimatum in the absence of setting boundaries ahead of time can absolutely be about control. And ultimatum can be about telling other people what to do if you don't quit smoking, then I'm not going to date you anymore. That's an ultimatum. The difference, though, or what I would add to it, is that sometimes the ultimatum is the final step in a boundary process, and those are two different things.

00;02;45;09 - 00;03;12;10
Melissa Urban:
So if you are smoking and I don't enjoy the smell of smoke, I might say to you, please don't smoke around me. Please don't smoke inside my home. My boundaries, that I don't allow smoking in my presence or in my home. If you continue to disrespect that boundary and I reinstate it and I'm clear and I say, if you can't respect this, we can't continue to hang out, then my ultimatum might be if you can't respect my desire to not be around cigaret smoke, then we're not going to be able to spend time together.

00;03;12;10 - 00;03;25;00
Melissa Urban:
But it's very different to say that ultimatum as the last resort in attempting to preserve the relationship because you've tried to set a boundary and in coming out of the gate with an ultimatum without even trying to have the conversation ahead of time.

00;03;25;03 - 00;03;50;26
Dr. Liz:
Yeah, such an important distinction because that ultimatum, you know, boundaries without consequences are merely suggestions, as we know. And so when we're just suggesting to somebody, please don't talk about that topic, please stop asking me those questions, but we don't actually do anything about it. And that's I talk to my clients about that in terms of you can gently state your boundaries, especially if somebody doesn't know, like we don't have to come out the gate as an asshole.

00;03;50;26 - 00;04;14;23
Dr. Liz:
Like you can gently state whatever that is and if it's not respected, I suggest that we assertively, more assertively, you know, state what that is. But at that third, third, maybe go around of it, it really becomes your responsibility to ask yourself, why are you continuing to engage? Because now you're just giving your power away in that situation.

00;04;14;23 - 00;04;22;25
Dr. Liz:
And so that's what I talk about, like leave the conversation, leave the room, or sometimes it's about leaving the environment or the relationship.

00;04;22;28 - 00;04;40;08
Melissa Urban:
Yes. So what you're addressing here is also another thing that people get confused about, which is, okay, well, where does a boundary where like do a boundary and a request intersect? So the way you just set it is really good. I have this limit, and if you meet me in this limit, I'm going to feel safer. I'm going to feel better.

00;04;40;14 - 00;04;57;15
Melissa Urban:
Our relationship is going to be more open and more trusting. But you don't know I have this limit. You're not a mind reader, so I am going to express my limit the first time in the form of a request. It's going to be very clear, but also very kind. Would you please call before you come over and give us an hour's notice?

00;04;57;15 - 00;05;19;18
Melissa Urban:
That's a request. Now, the boundary itself is if you come over without calling first, after I've asked you not to do that, I'm not going to answer the door If it's not a good time for me. So the request can be the way we initially frame the boundary in the spirit of good communication and in the spirit of goodwill, assuming the other person just didn't realize we had a limit.

00;05;19;20 - 00;05;31;14
Melissa Urban:
But we always need to have the backup plan. What is the action that I am going to take if this person proves unwilling or unable to respect the limit? And that is my actual boundary.

00;05;31;16 - 00;05;48;24
Dr. Liz:
Yeah, I love that. So you have written a book on boundaries. Tell me what motivated that is. That should we assume boundaries have been a struggle for you personally? Is that something through your self-growth and your own development, Where where did that motivation come from?

00;05;48;25 - 00;06;17;08
Melissa Urban:
Yeah, I mean, I don't know anybody that hasn't struggled with boundaries. And while I would say I'm not a people pleaser by nature and never have been, I definitely struggled with boundaries when I was younger, especially through my addiction and then especially in my recovery from my drug addiction. I didn't have any boundaries. And when I learned to set and hold boundaries in my recovery and realize the power that boundaries had to expand my life beyond my wildest dreams, that was kind of the first like pin right in the subject.

00;06;17;10 - 00;06;36;12
Melissa Urban:
And then in 2009, when I did my first Whole30 and founded the Whole30 program, which is a 30 day kind of dietary self experiment, I began leading people through the whole thing and realized that you also have to set boundaries around food and drink when you're trying to change your habits, and people had a really hard time with it.

00;06;36;14 - 00;06;53;18
Melissa Urban:
So I began helping people set and hold boundaries around food and alcohol and diet talk and weight talk and calorie talk and around the food that they put on their plate through the Whole30. And once people figure it out, I was really good at that. They started like sending me DMS. Okay, about what? About my mother in law who's always dropping by without calling me?

00;06;53;18 - 00;07;09;23
Melissa Urban:
Or what about the friend who's always emotionally dumping? Or what about the nosy neighbor who's like always peeking over our fence? How do I set a boundary in that area and in the middle of the pandemic, when we all realized we had no boundaries and we were starting to become completely overrun, that's when the idea for the book came about.

00;07;09;25 - 00;07;33;12
Dr. Liz:
That's beautiful. I love that. I could see how the Whole30 would lead to a lot of boundary conversations, especially with the controversy that comes out of it with a lot of different populations. And that's how it how it's been can be stigmatized, but almost from a place of like maybe a projection of their own insecurities or because they don't get it.

00;07;33;12 - 00;07;51;14
Dr. Liz:
So they're going to tell you why it's wrong. I mean, I've done the whole thing multiple times, so like, I get it. I understand the value of it, I understand the benefits, but I also would receive the judgment. And it's because people want you to eat with them. They want you to drink with them. Yeah. So I imagine that's where that came about.

00;07;51;15 - 00;08;10;01
Melissa Urban:
You have to you probably see as a therapist the fact that the people who you assume would be the most supportive when you try to make a change for your own health are often the ones who feel the most threatened and therefore give you the most pressure, give you the more, the most pushback. It can be incredibly emotional.

00;08;10;01 - 00;08;12;03
Melissa Urban:
I'm sure you see that in your practice.

00;08;12;05 - 00;08;42;12
Dr. Liz:
Absolutely. And I describe that as the solar system, because when you think about with ourselves and then our significant relationships and we're like all rotating like a solar system, and when one of those planets comes out of alignment, it's out of the gravitational pull, it shakes everything up. And so everyone wants to just get it back to like, no, but on Friday nights we get drunk together or on Saturday mornings we go to brunch or and that's really uncomfortable for them because it also shakes up their gravitational pull.

00;08;42;19 - 00;09;03;26
Melissa Urban:
Yes. And they can feel like, well, what if we don't have enough in common anymore to sustain the relationship if you don't drink anymore? Or you know what? If watching you pass on the bread basket makes me feel worse about my habits and there's a lot of emotionality attached to it. So when you're in the position of wanting to make changes for your own health and you are facing that kind of pushback or peer pressure, you have two options.

00;09;03;26 - 00;09;22;08
Melissa Urban:
You either give in to keep the peace, which means you're compromising your own health and your own goals and your own integrity. Or you learn how to set boundaries and say no and say, this is an action that I'm going to take for myself because it's in my highest good and I'm going to learn to communicate with you that like this kind of peer pressure or this kind of behavior won't be tolerated.

00;09;22;08 - 00;09;26;00
Melissa Urban:
And here's what I'm going to do to make sure that I can uphold my goals.

00;09;26;07 - 00;09;44;09
Dr. Liz:
Yet, which is so hard and especially the most common thing. I'm sure you hear it all the time that people feel mean. They feel like they're being disrespect for hurting people's feelings when they set their boundaries. And that is I say it all the time. Humans are designed for adaptation so we can get used to this new behavior.

00;09;44;09 - 00;10;03;16
Dr. Liz:
But because it's not been a norm for us and because people pleasing or violating our own boundaries has been a part of what we've perceived as survival in the sense of that's how we're accepted, that's how we get people to like us. It feels really threatening when we decide to start saying no.

00;10;03;18 - 00;10;30;00
Melissa Urban:
Yes. And women in particular, and especially moms, have been conditioned by the patriarchy and stereotypical rigid gender roles and sometimes religious influence and diet, culture and trauma. To be small, to be compliant, we are taught to put everyone else's needs and feelings ahead of our own. And when we become moms, I'm praised the most as a mom. When I am selfless, I have no self.

00;10;30;00 - 00;10;51;21
Melissa Urban:
I'm giving everything to my kid and my family. And then when I do have a need and I speak up, what happens? We're called bitchy. We're called demanding. We're told we have too many rules. And so this kind of like feedback loop teaches us that we shouldn't have needs, we shouldn't have feelings. And if we do, we absolutely should not express them and like we shouldn't even be on our own list.

00;10;51;21 - 00;11;04;00
Melissa Urban:
So there's a lot of unlearning we have to do just to get to the point where we're like, No, no, no, my needs matter, my feelings matter. They are valid, they are worthy. And then we have to learn how to express them and share them.

00;11;04;02 - 00;11;17;11
Dr. Liz:
Which is definitely the hard part. Where do you start when you're helping people to do that? Do you have a formula that you use of step by step of helping them to adapt? Or where do you start?

00;11;17;13 - 00;11;38;25
Melissa Urban:
So the first step in I did the first step in my boundary practice is identifying the need for a boundary. So sometimes people come to me and they go, I don't even know where I could set a boundary. So here's what I want everyone to do. I want you to imagine a particular person and when you think about this person, you immediately feel a sense of like dread, like, I don't want to.

00;11;38;28 - 00;11;55;16
Melissa Urban:
It's the person who, like when they text you, you turn your phone over and you're like, I'm not even going to bother. It's the coworker. When they walk by your desk and you pretend to be doing something else so you don't have to talk. That sense of dread or anxiety or avoidance is often the first sign that a boundary is needed.

00;11;55;18 - 00;12;18;03
Melissa Urban:
So you can look for signs like that if you don't like who you are when you're to show up as an a version of yourself that they expect or demand, you can't show up as your full self if you never know where you stand with somebody. If you feel like you're constantly being taken advantage of, those are signs that can help you identify the need for a specific boundary.

00;12;18;06 - 00;12;37;07
Dr. Liz:
That's a great point. The nervous system, when it gets activated, we know that there's a reason for it. We know that we're in a threat state. And for us to stop and check in and what's going on. I use the three WS often and that's what's going on. Where is it coming from and what do I need? And the boundary being this third, what do I need?

00;12;37;09 - 00;12;45;16
Dr. Liz:
What do I need? So that's first part the what's going on. So you're saying check in with your body's physiological responses and then where do you take it from there?

00;12;45;18 - 00;13;10;18
Melissa Urban:
So from there you have to identify the specific boundary that you need. Very often what can happen when people live in a boundary less relationship is that they are just constantly like I call it eating at. You're just eating it, you're holding your tongue to keep the peace. You're going along to get along. You're always showing up the way the other person expects you to because you're trying to be nice or you're trying to be liked or accepted and you're just swallowing it.

00;13;10;18 - 00;13;27;11
Melissa Urban:
And it is eating you up from the inside out. And then what happens is you get to the point where you're like, okay, I only have two choices now. I can show up exactly the way they keep expecting me to show up and let them run me over and feel awful about it. Or I can cut them out of my life entirely and it can feel like you don't have any in between.

00;13;27;11 - 00;13;50;18
Melissa Urban:
But the good news is that there are an infinite number of points in between where you can really dial in on, okay, I feel this sense of anxiety, I feel this sense of dread. But like, where is that coming from? What is that around? Maybe it's about a particular conversation topic where your relationship with your mom could feel so much more free and open if you knew she wouldn't bring up your weight.

00;13;50;21 - 00;14;08;21
Melissa Urban:
If that was the one conversation that you just didn't have, all of a sudden you're like a big sigh of relief. Everything feels better. If I knew that was off the table, maybe it's a specific behavior that you'd like them to stop doing. Maybe it's just something that you've been tolerating for a long time and feeling resentful about, and you just need to see something and kind of get it off your chest.

00;14;08;21 - 00;14;20;28
Melissa Urban:
And once you do and they go, okay. I didn't know you felt like that. You'll feel a lot better. But really dialing in on what boundary do I need in order to allow this relationship to feel safe and to expand it?

00;14;21;01 - 00;14;40;06
Dr. Liz:
Do you see that people have a hard time identifying that, or do you feel when they start to really reflect on their relationships, they're able to quickly see? And I'm just beginning a session this week where she was talking about the way that her boyfriend talks to her and she's like, Yeah, but you know, I have thick skin, so it's fine.

00;14;40;09 - 00;15;07;18
Dr. Liz:
And as we continue the session, like she's been really distressed since that conversation, you know, so helping her to make that awareness. But then when I had a very similar conversation of where do you think we should, you know, consider boundaries or maybe what's for him not to say anymore. And for her, she really sat in that and was like, I wouldn't even know what to tell him not to say or that I'm not comfortable with.

00;15;07;23 - 00;15;09;16
Dr. Liz:
Do you see that with the people you work with?

00;15;09;22 - 00;15;29;02
Melissa Urban:
I do, definitely. It can feel as though, again, if you've been accepting these behaviors for a really long time, it can feel like I don't even know where to start or some people are just so problematic. Take in so many areas that it's like, you know, if I if I talk to somebody about their mother in law and they're like, yeah, they come by without calling, they insert themselves into our relationship.

00;15;29;02 - 00;15;56;24
Melissa Urban:
They are constantly pitting my husband against me. They are commenting on my appearance, they're overparenting with my kids. Like there's just this laundry list of things that they need to address. So sometimes dialing in on the one thing that could feel the most relieving is helpful. Like, is there one behavior where if you just address this one behavior or most of the weight would be off and you could then focus on some of these smaller things, sometimes it's where can you get a small win?

00;15;56;26 - 00;16;24;12
Melissa Urban:
So, you know, something like food and drink is a great place to start with holding a boundary or setting a boundary because you always have control over what you choose to eat or drink. So if your mother in law or best friend, they're always really pushy about you having a glass of wine. That's where you can start by setting a boundary, because A you can always hold that because you will say, No, I do not want the wine and if you need to, you'll leave the situation in and be that can give you this sense of self-confidence and like, okay, I spoke that out loud.

00;16;24;14 - 00;16;31;20
Melissa Urban:
That feels valid. I feel like I deserve that. Where else could I speak things out loud in order to set the limits I need?

00;16;31;22 - 00;16;55;29
Dr. Liz:
And where do you then help people to navigate? Because I'm sure that elicits a lot of fear and they're nervous systems. I get activated just from that conversation alone, right? Of telling somebody no. How do you help them to to stabilize, to find some peace in that to even find the confidence to be able to assert that when everything in their body is screaming like, don't you freak in there.

00;16;56;04 - 00;17;17;22
Melissa Urban:
Okay, You can tell me if you think this is valid or not, because I'm not a therapist, I'm not a somatic practitioner. But my advice is to practice out loud the things, the boundaries script you are going to use before you say it. Because the more you say it, I believe that your body like internalizes that limit and it starts to feel more comfortable.

00;17;17;22 - 00;17;34;12
Melissa Urban:
It starts to feel more accepted, it starts to feel more natural. So I always say, tell your shower wall. No thanks, I'm not drinking right now. Tell your dog, please call before you come over and give us an hour's notice. Tell your, you know, mirror when you're getting ready for work the next morning. I'm perfectly happy with what's on my plate.

00;17;34;12 - 00;17;46;29
Melissa Urban:
We don't need to talk about it. The more you practice and say it over and over, the more I feel like the body absorbs this message that, like, this is true, this is valid. And then the more comfortable you'll be to pull it out in the actual circumstance.

00;17;47;02 - 00;18;17;05
Dr. Liz:
And that is beautiful. And exactly what I suggest as well. The way the brain fires is, the way that it wires, that is yeah, that is the neurological impact that's going on when we practice something. And so I just talked with the client about that this week where we're doing assertiveness training with her. So very similar to her to identify the boundaries, but then for her to be able to speak them and she, she is just the sweetest and so she often whispers her boundaries once we determine them.

00;18;17;05 - 00;18;33;20
Dr. Liz:
Right? And so that's a big part of, you know, go in front of the mirror and we talk about like even practicing the diaphragmatic release when you're doing it, that you're really doing it from from your gut. But we talked about the same thing, you know, in the car on the way home. You have a 45 minute drive.

00;18;33;23 - 00;18;39;13
Dr. Liz:
Repeat it, repeat it, repeat it louder, firmer. So, yeah, that's that is so true.

00;18;39;15 - 00;18;39;29
Melissa Urban:
I also.

00;18;39;29 - 00;18;40;27
Dr. Liz:
Think both.

00;18;40;29 - 00;19;12;29
Melissa Urban:
The way the fact that you're doing role playing with her and you are sharing some semblance of a script is also really helpful because I also find that people do get nervous about setting boundaries and what typically happens is it comes out sounding like this. So I just wanted to talk to you about something. It's not a big deal at all, but I'm I'm wondering if maybe like the next time you come over, I wonder if maybe you could call first and like, if you don't want to do that, like it ends up coming out this really squishy, wishy washy, or you hint and you assume that they get the message, but they don't because

00;19;12;29 - 00;19;40;13
Melissa Urban:
it's not clear. Having a script can really help and unlearning the idea again, especially for women, that direct equals rude. We have been conditioned that when we speak directly without the conditions, without apologizing first for our very existence, that somehow it's rude. It's rude to say, please don't comment on my plate. I'm perfectly happy with what's on it, or no, I can't meet at three.

00;19;40;15 - 00;19;58;06
Melissa Urban:
How about tomorrow? We tend to apologize or overexplain or over justify. I'm so sorry. I can't meet at three tomorrow. I have like a really busy day, and boy, if I tried to squeeze it in, it would. But, like, maybe I could squeeze it in. But now I can't meet at three tomorrow house, 2:00 tomorrow afternoon. That is not rude.

00;19;58;06 - 00;20;11;01
Melissa Urban:
And the more we practice that, I kind of talk about like channel your mediocre white man at work. How would a mediocre white man say this? Would they apologize? Would they be wishy washy? No. They'd be like, I can't meet at three house to tomorrow.

00;20;11;01 - 00;20;48;20
Dr. Liz:
Do that without a fuck in the world. And that's exactly right. And I love that in the role playing, if there's somebody that you're you feel safe with, you feel comfortable with, and this is something you're trying to learn, I would suggest ask a friend to do it with you. And what we also practice is the friend giving pushback because that is what inevitably is going to happen, which I'm sure is probably here in the next step of your program, because we hear either it's completely ignored, it's defied, we're given reasons as to why our boundaries don't make sense.

00;20;48;22 - 00;20;49;25
Dr. Liz:
Where do you go with that?

00;20;49;27 - 00;21;13;04
Melissa Urban:
Yeah, there's a whole chapter in the book about how handling pushback because it does happen. What I will say is this We often go into these conversations armed for battle. We assume that every boundary we going to we're going to set is going to be met with so much pushback, animosity, just anger and frustration. And most of the time that doesn't happen at all.

00;21;13;04 - 00;21;47;29
Melissa Urban:
Most of the time people go, I didn't know. Sure. And you're like, Wow, could it really be that easy? So I always say, go into these conversations, assuming the best, assume that the other person just didn't know you had a limit and cares about you and wants to respect it and wants your relationship to be good? Because if you go into these conversations armed for battle, you may end up provoking the very reaction that you're afraid of because you show up more aggressively, more coldly, with a shorter tone, with a a meaner tone, because you're anticipating their pushback and then all of a sudden it does come off as rude or it does come

00;21;47;29 - 00;22;04;18
Melissa Urban:
off a short. If you are met with pushback, there are few really important points. So the first one is the other person does not have to understand or agree with your boundary in order to respect it. So if I say to you like, Hey, Elizabeth, can we chat tonight, I really need to download something, like, I got to dump a little something.

00;22;04;18 - 00;22;19;11
Melissa Urban:
And you go, You know what, Melissa? I had a really hard day today and I don't have the capacity for it tonight. I don't need you to explain why. I don't even need to believe you. I just need as your friend to go. Okay, I understand. Thanks for letting me know. I'll find someone else to talk to, and I'll text you tomorrow and see how you are.

00;22;19;13 - 00;22;39;20
Melissa Urban:
So that's the first thing you don't have to do over justify. You don't have to overexplain. You don't have to make sure the other person buys in your limit as your limit. And then the second point is that you can acknowledge someone's disappointment without going back on your limit. So if your mom calls and says, Hey, we want to come visit this weekend and you say, I'm sorry, this isn't a good weekend, can we play another time?

00;22;39;20 - 00;22;57;16
Melissa Urban:
And they say, you know, I just miss my grandbabies. And this is like, we were really hoping to see you. You can say, I hear you're disappointed. I totally get it. I'm sure they miss you, too. Let's face time this weekend and we'll plan another visit soon so you can acknowledge their disappointment without taking that so personally, as if to say, they're disappointed.

00;22;57;16 - 00;23;00;19
Melissa Urban:
So now I have to rescind my limit.

00;23;00;22 - 00;23;23;28
Dr. Liz:
And that with parenting, that's a huge one as well, that when people struggle to hold those boundaries with their kids because they they melt down or what I don't want to deal with the tantrum and and that's a big validate even if your kid is mad that you said no, they're allowed to be mad and you can validate their experience and still say no.

00;23;24;03 - 00;23;50;16
Dr. Liz:
And it's it's a really hard thing to do. But also in a romantic relationship, the same thing that often with our partners, we want to please them, we want to make them happy. And so when we sense their disappointment, it becomes very easy to start becoming over, flexible on that boundary. Whereas as you're saying, we can completely validate, authentically validate what they're feeling, that disappointment is real.

00;23;50;19 - 00;23;54;00
Dr. Liz:
And I'm still not doing the thing you want me to do.

00;23;54;01 - 00;24;11;13
Melissa Urban:
Yeah, you know, I have a relationship golden rule that applies to all relationships, but it's especially helpful in romantic relationships that says, Say what you mean and trust your partner to do the same. And I will say that since my husband and I have cultivated this since the beginning of our relationship, it makes these boundary situations so much easier.

00;24;11;13 - 00;24;28;25
Melissa Urban:
So my husband will say like, Hey, can we snuggle on the couch? And I could really use some like connection. And I will say my mental health, like, really sucks and I actually need an hour alone, so I can't give that to you tonight. Like, not right now. And he will say, man, that's rough. I really am feeling like a little lonely.

00;24;28;25 - 00;24;46;00
Melissa Urban:
I could really, like, use a little something from you, but I totally get it. If you get an hour of alone time, can we reconnect then and see if that feels better? Or I can say to him, I hear you're needing connection. I'm really struggling to, like, be intimate tonight. I don't think I can do, like, sexy time tonight, but could we sit on the couch and snuggle with that help?

00;24;46;00 - 00;25;03;01
Melissa Urban:
Because that's something that I can do. And if that's like, good for you, then we can compromise there. But we have these conversations where nobody's taking it personally, nobody's going to bed angry, and we're ideally meeting somewhere in the middle. So both of our needs are met in a way that doesn't compromise either of our limits.

00;25;03;03 - 00;25;24;08
Dr. Liz:
And a healthy boundary being firm but flexible. And that's the such an important part of that is we have the rigid boundaries which are our walls. We have the porous, which are not boundaries, and then the healthy, and that is that we kind of have a boundary and we can feel a certain way, we can have an opinion, we can have these expectations.

00;25;24;11 - 00;25;48;29
Dr. Liz:
We can also take into consideration the other person's experience as you're describing, especially in a romantic relationship. And we can compromise without a way that becomes violating to our to ourselves or cold to them. I think that's where a lot of romantic relationships struggle. And your own romantic relationship, do you find that there's specific areas that are more difficult for you than others when it comes to boundaries?

00;25;49;02 - 00;26;07;07
Melissa Urban:
Yeah. We have always struggled with the amount of alone time that I require. I need more alone time than anyone I've ever met. And when my husband was going to move in to this house with my son and I, we I had to go back to therapy so that I could figure out how to live with somebody again and, like, share my space with somebody again.

00;26;07;12 - 00;26;23;16
Melissa Urban:
But we had a lot of conversations where I was like, my need for a long time has nothing to do with you. I'm not mad at you. I'm not annoyed by you. You're not doing anything wrong. It's just how I recharge. And if I can get these small kind of chunks of alone time when I come back together with you, I feel more connected.

00;26;23;16 - 00;26;42;05
Melissa Urban:
I'm happier, I'm more open. I will let you know when I need that alone time. And I'm also going to work really hard to flex how much capacity I have to people so that over time, hopefully I have, you know, I get stronger and stronger at spending more time around people and I need less time alone. And that's exactly what's happened.

00;26;42;08 - 00;26;47;19
Dr. Liz:
And what about for him? Are there are certain boundary areas for him that he.

00;26;47;21 - 00;27;07;01
Melissa Urban:
I don't you know, I don't know. I, I don't know what this says, but I think I have more boundaries than he does. But I think maybe I just have more I'm more in touch energetically with what my needs are and I'm very specific about protecting them. But, you know, he'll be the one to come to me and say, you know, it's okay if you want to go hiking by yourself this weekend.

00;27;07;01 - 00;27;30;14
Melissa Urban:
I totally get it. I could really use a little bit of sort of one on one time with you. When do you when would you like to make that happen? Like, when would that work? So, you know, the other night we made a plan that we're going to have regular date nights in 2023 because we had a conversation and realized that his idea of quality time is different than mine, and his quality time is like, I want to go out, I want to be dressed up, I want to do something new.

00;27;30;14 - 00;27;47;09
Melissa Urban:
I like want to do things with you. And my idea of quality time is like if we're in the same house together for two or 3 hours, even if we're doing work in different offices like that counts for me. So I think just this idea of like having an open communication, even when it's uncomfortable, he's really good about saying, I need to talk to you about something.

00;27;47;09 - 00;27;55;22
Melissa Urban:
It probably won't be comfortable, but it would mean a lot to me. If you can sit down and like engage in this conversation and I'm like, okay, let's do it. And that's been super helpful for us.

00;27;55;24 - 00;28;17;16
Dr. Liz:
And to have two people on the same page with when it comes to boundaries and communication as we know, is a complete game changer when you're working with people on this topic and they have a partner, maybe one of them. And I get asked this question all the time, so I'd love to hear someone else's perspective and there's maybe different views on communication, there's different views on boundaries.

00;28;17;16 - 00;28;37;17
Dr. Liz:
Maybe one person is really heavy into self-improvement and self-development and the other person is not on board where do you kind of suggest people start with that or to even navigate it? Because what I hear often, which I will validate, is, yes, I know I have the option to leave the relationship, but I don't want to. And so where to go with that?

00;28;37;20 - 00;29;06;11
Melissa Urban:
I know I used the word therapy 66 times in the book because I think the place you go is therapy. There are a lot of relationship challenges that a simple boundary cannot fix. You know this if you have a partner who is not willing to show up an equal partnership and you are doing all of the invisible labor carrying all of the mental load and they are unwilling or incapable or weaponizing their incompetence around child care or household care, you can't make them do that.

00;29;06;11 - 00;29;24;26
Melissa Urban:
You can't set a boundary that says you will do your own laundry because that's controlling. You can't control that. You can't set a boundary that says, I'm never going to clean my house again because your home cannot function if it is not clean. So in some situations the boundary you set is the relationship as it currently stands is not working for me.

00;29;24;26 - 00;29;45;28
Melissa Urban:
And I'm going to go to therapy to help me figure out next steps and then you get the personalized support that you need to help you figure out how to have the conversations, what your next steps could be, what interim steps could be, or help you figure out whether or not it is time to leave the relationship, but get the support that you need and deserve during that time frame because the only person's behavior you can control is your own so important.

00;29;45;28 - 00;30;04;29
Dr. Liz:
And especially when you're trying to navigate that on your own, you get so in your head and it becomes such a mind fuck because you have all of your relational programing. And so all of these influences and messages from childhood that your parents have instilled in you about making other people happy and pleasing them and not setting boundaries.

00;30;05;02 - 00;30;20;02
Dr. Liz:
And then you also have your internal like pulling at you like that intuition that saying this is not right, this doesn't feel right, and that cognitive dissonance can be really hard.

00;30;20;05 - 00;30;48;10
Melissa Urban:
It's a lot to unpack. It is a lot to unpack, and a lot of times it goes back to like the way you know your childhood and what your parents model for you and what you learned growing up. But here's something that I believe and you can tell me. If you see these in your clients as well. I think it only takes one person to change a relationships dynamic in that sometimes you changing your behavior the way you respond to certain situations, the way you communicate forces the relationship as a whole to change.

00;30;48;13 - 00;31;00;23
Melissa Urban:
Maybe not in the way that you hope or want, but something's going to change if one person is taking those steps to improve themselves, to understand themselves better, to communicate differently, that can have an impact.

00;31;00;26 - 00;31;23;01
Dr. Liz:
It's so true. And then once you make those steps, if that other person is still not getting on board, so you're like, okay, I've done my work, I've made my changes, I've done all the hard shit like I am, I'm in this and the other person, even after all of that, is still not showing up in the way that you need them to, then that just gives you even more clarity on like how to move forward.

00;31;23;05 - 00;31;52;11
Melissa Urban:
I think that it does, you know, this is like a little off topic, but I think about relationships being in seasons and sometimes you simply outgrow the season or the way the relationship began. You change, you become a different person. And if you've done all of this, work on yourself to self-improvement, rediscover who you are and heal old wounds and show up differently and restore your sense of worth and value and touch base with your self and figure out what you need and what you want from me.

00;31;52;13 - 00;32;13;10
Melissa Urban:
Very often that leads to a natural evolution of this relationship is no longer serving me, because I find when people are in mismatched relationships like this, at least from my own experience, it's hard for the person who's operating at like this high energetic level to pull the other one up with them. But it's real easy for the person vibrating Lowe to yank the other one down.

00;32;13;12 - 00;32;14;00
Melissa Urban:
Yeah.

00;32;14;03 - 00;32;32;19
Dr. Liz:
Yeah. In so many areas of life. And I completely agree. What are some boundaries that you suggest around communication with romantic couples? So whether it's navigating through conflict, bringing up topics of intimacy, do you have like specific tools around boundaries in communication?

00;32;32;22 - 00;32;56;00
Melissa Urban:
I definitely talk about creating rules of engagement around conflict. I think it's really important for partners to understand their conflict language. How do you typically behave when there's conflict? For example, my husband takes off. He's like, I can't handle this. I'm overwhelmed, I'm taking off. And I'm like, okay, we're going to talk about this. I know that that's what you do, and I know that you're not doing it to punish me or get back at me.

00;32;56;00 - 00;33;13;28
Melissa Urban:
I know that you really do need time away to sort of process, so you take off. That's cool. I will not be mad about that. The agreement that we have is that you come back within a reasonable period of time and we reengage in the discussion. So you can't just take off and never talk about it again. You can't take off for two days and not tell me who you know, where you are.

00;33;14;00 - 00;33;29;29
Melissa Urban:
But I won't be mad if you do need some space. And then when you're ready, you come back and we talk about it. And he's like, Cool, that works. You know, we know each other's biggest buttons. We know the deepest, darkest fears. The one thing we could say that would decimate the person that's off limits 100% no matter what.

00;33;30;00 - 00;33;51;16
Melissa Urban:
Like we just don't go there. And if at any time one of us needs a break or feel ourselves getting flooded, we have this kind of code phrase where we are like, Hey, remember, we're a team. And that reminds us that it's us against the problem and not us against each other. And very often that's enough to shift us out of this conflict mode into like, All right, let's take a breath and figure out like, how we can solve this together.

00;33;51;18 - 00;34;17;00
Dr. Liz:
It's crucial that that happens because often it is the problem that's actually the issue, or even more than it being an external problem. It could be it's your inner child, it's your traumas from childhood, it's your traumas from your past relationship. It's these really vulnerable things that are going on for you that get triggered in conflict or get triggered and then create the conflict.

00;34;17;07 - 00;34;35;19
Dr. Liz:
But then that conflict just exacerbates what's already been triggered. And what I've noticed with my clients in my personal experience, that you're way that you react to a trigger is very likely to trigger the other person. Right? And so then the way they react and then it just is back and forth.

00;34;35;20 - 00;34;51;22
Melissa Urban:
Yeah, think about that anxious avoidant partner combination, right? I you know, he's anxious, I tend to be avoidant or like I'm pretty secure now, but my past was avoidant so I can revert back to that. So the more you know, he feels separated, the clingy he becomes the clingy he becomes, the more I want to push him away.

00;34;51;22 - 00;35;09;17
Melissa Urban:
And that can exacerbate that cycle. One of the things that we've also found in incredibly important in our relationship is that we each take responsibility for our own feelings. So I will come to him and I will dump. I'll be like, I am in a shitty mental place. My mental health is terrible. I'm super stressed about work X, y, z.

00;35;09;17 - 00;35;27;12
Melissa Urban:
I will just like jump on him and he's like, I'm listening. I got you. Like I hear you. I hear this is hard. But then I say, So I'm going to call my therapist and book an appointment. I'm going to go for a walk right now because I know going for a walk makes me feel better. I'm going to start taking my cold showers again because like I haven't been doing them lately and I know that those help.

00;35;27;14 - 00;35;43;13
Melissa Urban:
And tonight I'm going to go to bed toddler early because maybe I just need a good night's sleep. So I am dumping where I'm sharing, I'm venting. And he taking that, but I'm not expecting him to pick it up and carry it. And he knows that I'm going to take the responsibility I need to make myself feel better.

00;35;43;13 - 00;35;50;10
Melissa Urban:
And when we each do that, it now feels like we're an equal partnership rather than one person is just carrying the other one.

00;35;50;12 - 00;36;08;05
Dr. Liz:
And the important part that you stated is that he validates you, though, in that he is not just sitting there either dead quiet or he's not offering unsolicited advice. He he's validating your experience and that what you're going through is hard. Yeah. And then he allows you to arrive at your solution.

00;36;08;10 - 00;36;23;14
Melissa Urban:
Yes. He's really good about that. I am less good about that if you I'm the one where, like, he'll come to me and he'll be like, my day suck today. Like I couldn't buy my jujitsu pants and I couldn't go to jiu jitsu. And I'm like, Well, I don't know what your pants are. And he's like, That's not that's not what I want from you.

00;36;23;14 - 00;36;37;09
Melissa Urban:
Like, I don't need you to fix it. I don't need it. Can't you just say, like, that sucks? And I'm like, yeah. Okay. So I have to remind myself very often to be like, Just say that socks, just say that socks. And then like, if he wants help, he'll ask for it. So I think it's important to remind ourselves to do that, too.

00;36;37;11 - 00;36;37;25
Melissa Urban:
Yes.

00;36;38;02 - 00;36;59;24
Dr. Liz:
And I often see like the two ends of the spectrum and somebody I've been dating for a while, he's tends to just get quiet, but then I tend to overly fix. And so like if we had somewhere in the middle of this spectrum, like as you're describing, like, hey, we could probably just tell each other and my therapist side just comes out and I'm like, okay, put it away, put it away.

00;37;00;03 - 00;37;18;22
Dr. Liz:
But I do. I'm definitely those ends of the spectrum. And I think it ties into as well, like upbringing. So for him, he's likely to respond that way because he didn't feel like his voice was heard, respected in childhood. He's just not going to have one. And for me, I was the fixer. I was taking care of every single family member, including my parents.

00;37;18;22 - 00;37;30;26
Dr. Liz:
And so when somebody brings something to me, I'm like, okay, so what do you need from me? What do you want for me? Like, how can I make it better? But for neither one of us, we're both like, Yeah, it's not helpful. So that was.

00;37;30;28 - 00;37;54;27
Melissa Urban:
One of the things that I find is that when you get more comfortable setting and holding boundaries for yourself, when you the more you do that, the more you realize that boundaries are not mean, they're not selfish, they're not controlling. They are a limit that improves the relationship. Once you get more comfortable doing that, you then are more proactive about encouraging and respecting other people's boundaries too.

00;37;54;29 - 00;38;09;06
Melissa Urban:
So he will start showing up for conversations. Now I'll be like, be about a shitty date and he'll go, okay, cool. Do you want to listen? Do you want to validate or do you want me to, like, give you advice? He'll ask upfront now and I'm like, okay, this is just a listening conversation. Or No, I actually really want your advice here.

00;38;09;06 - 00;38;19;10
Melissa Urban:
And he'll go, okay, and he'll get into that mode. So that can be really helpful to like tell people how they can support you because again, they're not mind readers and they want to support you.

00;38;19;13 - 00;38;37;25
Dr. Liz:
And what would a boundary look like if you did so, the example you gave, where you did the dumping and then he and then you were able to come up with your own solutions. But what if you were kind of waiting for him to caretaker for you or for him to solve it? What might a boundary look like there?

00;38;37;29 - 00;38;50;00
Dr. Liz:
Because I mean, the way you described it was great of like we take responsibility for our own emotions. So when somebody doesn't do that and they want you to take responsibility for it, how can we give that back to them?

00;38;50;00 - 00;39;04;25
Melissa Urban:
I know that's like an emotional dump when somebody just like dumps all their problems on you and they might ask you for advice and you give them advice and then they don't take your advice and they come back with the same problems a week later. So, you know, in that circumstance you might interrupt and say, hey, we talked about this exact same thing last week.

00;39;04;25 - 00;39;18;17
Melissa Urban:
If you remember, you asked me what you thought and I said you should go talk to your boss and maybe talk to your coworker. Did you do either of those things? And they go, No, I didn't. And you can say, okay, why don't you go do that first? Because I think those are the things that are going to help.

00;39;18;17 - 00;39;39;01
Melissa Urban:
And I don't think we need to rehash it until you actually take that action. So you can ask them like, Hey, this is back in your court. Now, one of the phrases that Lori Gottlieb has used that I love so much is I wish I could be your therapist, but I can only be your friend. And even you can say that as a therapist because you are a therapist, but you're not your friend's therapist.

00;39;39;01 - 00;39;59;05
Melissa Urban:
And I think it can be, you know, you're sharing things with me and I can be supportive, but I can't fix it for you. And we've had this same conversation a number of times, and I feel like I don't know what else to do. I wish I could be your therapist, but I can only be your friend. And if you want help finding someone to talk to, you weren't my support group.

00;39;59;05 - 00;40;05;05
Melissa Urban:
I can certainly help with that. But I think we've exhausted this subject. I don't think I have anything else to contribute here.

00;40;05;08 - 00;40;23;19
Dr. Liz:
And so hard to do, but so important. And again, practice, practice, practice. Yeah. I want to ask a question. It's a bit off topic, but going back to you, you had talked about your husband moving in with you and your son. How did you navigate the boundaries around blending the family and did your did your husband, how does he have children of his own?

00;40;23;22 - 00;40;46;12
Melissa Urban:
No, he doesn't know. So he came in, he didn't have a lot of experience with kids, but we blended our family very slowly. Like over the course of two years. He spent time with us. He spent he spent time with us. He spent nights with us. But we really took it super duper slow. And he did not even talk about moving in until my son said to me one morning, like, why doesn't Brandon live with us?

00;40;46;12 - 00;41;14;00
Melissa Urban:
And I'm like, well, I guess he could, you know, if we wanted to. So we didn't rush anything. We didn't force anything. It was very much on like a chill timeline. My son needed to get used to him. Brandon didn't have a lot of experience with kids, so he had to learn like patience. And I would watch him talk to my five year old as if he was an adult or be mad at my five year old because he was like behaving illogically and we had to have a lot of conversations where I was like, You're you're expecting him to behave like a grown up, but he's only five and he's not going to

00;41;14;00 - 00;41;35;16
Melissa Urban:
make a lot of sense. And like, here's kind of how you need to do it. My son was in play therapy at the time, so we had the benefit of a play therapist giving us advice about how you know how to interact and how to merge the families. So we really took our time and did it right. And then once he did move in, I think we already pretty much understood how the family unit was going to operate because we had so long a lead in.

00;41;35;19 - 00;41;46;14
Dr. Liz:
Did you put boundaries around his baby discipline with your son or the way that he could redirect or like kind of that role that he could take?

00;41;46;16 - 00;42;05;17
Melissa Urban:
One of the things we talked about I wouldn't say I set a boundary around it, but I said I watched my parents when I was growing up take these very cliche roles where my dad was the easy one and my mom was the hardass and I loved my dad and I hated my mom. And any time my mom said no, I could go ask my dad and he would say yes.

00;42;05;17 - 00;42;19;01
Melissa Urban:
And I was like, We're not doing that because bullshit like I was, you know, I love my dad, but I now see how unfair that was to my mom. And I didn't want to do that. So I was like, here's the deal. When he's with you, what you say goes and he doesn't need to ask me because I back you up.

00;42;19;01 - 00;42;32;16
Melissa Urban:
And if you and I disagree on something, we're going to have that disagreement privately. We're going to talk about what's best, and then we'll go present a united front with the kid. And he was like, Great, that sounds good. He has definitely occasionally he would make decisions that I was like, I wouldn't have done that, but I wasn't there.

00;42;32;21 - 00;42;44;02
Melissa Urban:
It's not my job. It's also not my consequence. So he's going to have to deal with the kid if he like give him sugar too late or let him watch too much TV. And then we both kind of, you know, just talk about how we want a parent together.

00;42;44;04 - 00;43;04;01
Dr. Liz:
Which is such the flip side of the boundaries. And as we're wrapping up, I just want to talk about for a minute this flip side of we've talked this whole time about setting boundaries and enforcing boundaries and the consequences and all of that. But there is a flip side of that, and that is as respecting other people's boundaries.

00;43;04;01 - 00;43;24;14
Dr. Liz:
And that is is really navigating appropriate expectations of other people and also coming to acceptance. I love what you're seeing with him that if you weren't there, that wasn't yours to control. So on the flip side of that, do you do much of that? Does your book address that kind of the receiving and respecting of boundaries as well?

00;43;24;18 - 00;43;44;05
Melissa Urban:
Absolutely. There's a whole chapter on that too. And again, I find that when you get better at setting and holding boundaries yourself, it does become more automatic and more graceful for you to receive other people's boundaries. You tend to see them. You know, they're not selfish, they're not controlling. This is a limit that you maybe don't understand, but in the moment you can respect it.

00;43;44;09 - 00;43;59;03
Melissa Urban:
And then after you've demonstrated respect, open a conversation about it. Hey, I noticed that, you know, the last two times I've tried to talk to you, you've said that you are busy. I'm good with that. I totally understand. I love you. Is that. Is everything okay? You know, can I help with anything? Are you going through a difficult time?

00;43;59;03 - 00;44;14;04
Melissa Urban:
Is there anything you want to talk about? If not, we can just make trading funny. Tiktoks our love language until you have more time. That's all good, right? So those kinds of conversations become a lot easier when you internalize the message for yourself that boundaries aren't mean, controlling or selfish.

00;44;14;07 - 00;44;31;15
Dr. Liz:
Yeah, which can mean can be so hard to do. Like when we're we're trying to convince ourselves, okay, we can set them. But I really do think the other half of the work is convincing ourselves that we can also receive them. Yeah. That somebody telling us no doesn't mean they don't love us and somebody's telling us not right now.

00;44;31;15 - 00;44;35;18
Dr. Liz:
Doesn't mean we're not important. And having that awareness as well.

00;44;35;19 - 00;44;52;25
Melissa Urban:
It's boundaries create a sense of safety in a relationship. If you say to me, Hey, Melissa, do you want to go to lunch? And I say, Sure, but I don't really want to because I'm busy or whatever. And then I show up for lunch and I'm resentful and I'm short and I'm snippy. And you're like, What's wrong? She said, Yes, That's not kind.

00;44;52;25 - 00;45;10;29
Melissa Urban:
That's not good for our relationship. If you say, Do you want to go to lunch? And I say, Nope, not this week. I sure don't. And you say, Okay. A That's the kind clear communication that builds trust in our relationship. And B, the next time you say, Do you want to go to lunch? And I say, yes, you know, I'm saying so authentically without resentment.

00;45;11;01 - 00;45;17;20
Melissa Urban:
I mean it with my my yes means more by no means more. Boundaries create a sense of safety in a relationship.

00;45;17;23 - 00;45;30;00
Dr. Liz:
I love that such. We're going to leave it there. Such a powerful statement. And this with Melissa. Tell us, tell the listeners where can they find your book? Where can they find you online social media?

00;45;30;07 - 00;45;42;28
Melissa Urban:
Yeah, the book is called The Book of Boundaries, and it's available everywhere. Books are sold and I am at Melissa. You on Instagram, Melissa underscore you on Tik-tok and my website is Melissa EW.com Very good.

00;45;42;28 - 00;45;58;20
Dr. Liz:
Well, Melissa, I really your time and this is such an important topic. I appreciate the clarity, clarity that you provided around it. And just even I think, you know, people listening who have been wanting to set them, you provided such a good formula of how to do it. So I'm very grateful for you. Thank you.

00;45;58;26 - 00;46;01;02
Melissa Urban:
Thanks so much, Elizabeth. It was a great chat.

00;46;01;04 - 00;46;42;25
Dr. Liz:
Thank you so much, Melissa, for hanging out with me today to talk all about the Book of Boundaries. And thank you all for hanging out. Unrelatable Relationships unfiltered. Make sure to subscribe to our YouTube channel, sign up for our newsletter and find me on Instagram at Dr. Is the veteran.