Relatable podcast
Episode 13: attachment styles with talia bombola, lmft
Dr. Liz hangs out with Talia Bombola, Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, Professor, and Speaker, to chat about all things attachment styles and the role they play in our relationships. Dr. Liz and Talia share about their own struggles of working towards secure attachment and discuss the impact that their previous insecure attachment styles had on their romantic relationships. Dr. Liz and Talia share ways to move from an insecure attachment style to an “earned secure” attachment style and provide insights on why this is so valuable for our current relationships. You aren’t going to want to miss this very relatable discussion about attachment styles and the influence they have on our relationships.
Transcript:
Talia Bombola:
We all have transitional objects that help us take a piece of home with us when we leave home, when we leave the safety. It sounds almost as though your ex is that transitional object of the lighthouse, and so the work can be. How do I find the next lighthouse Now that I know a lighthouse exists and he will always be there. How can I lean on that security much like I may have if I had that from childhood with my parents and go find a person.
Dr. Liz:
I completely agree. And Richard, don't let any future girlfriends listen to this episode because you will be dumped after and I. Apologize in advance. This is relatable relationships, unfiltered. Hey, welcome to Relatable Relationships Unfiltered. Today, I'm hanging out with Talia Bumble, a licensed marriage and family therapist and psychology professor. We're talking all about our own daily lives, relationships and attachment styles. Hello, Talia. Good to see you today.
Talia Bombola:
You too. How are you?
Dr. Liz:
Good. How are you doing?
Talia Bombola:
I'm doing well. I'm not enjoying the darkness coming early. But other than that, I'm okay.
Dr. Liz:
What state are you in?
Talia Bombola:
I'm in California.
Dr. Liz:
you are? In what part?
Talia Bombola:
Southern California.
Dr. Liz:
Okay. Got it. Yes. Yes. Okay. I grew up in San Bernardino County, so I grew up out there. Not quite as pretty as Orange County. Our pretty it all, for that matter. But I can relate to that. Southern California, for sure. Yes. And in in California, you do. I know your professor. And then you also do therapy as well.
Talia Bombola:
Yeah. So I am an adjunct professor. I am a marriage family therapist. And then I also do coaching and mentorship. And then I have all the other business stuff that I do, like an e-commerce business, three podcasts, and I'm the pre licensed director for Orange County campus, so.
Dr. Liz:
shit. Okay, so what do I do? I just. Hang out. Just chill. Right. You do you have. Or like.
Talia Bombola:
Yes. My life at all. I do. I have.
Dr. Liz:
I don't. So I'm just curious what what that's like for you.
Talia Bombola:
One of my favorite episodes that reminds me of Modern Family, where she's like, How's things? And they got and she's like, No, I'm literally asking you what it's like to have things. In your family. I do. I have a thriving personal life. I have a great partnership, a great family, and a lot of good friends. I would say I'm more and perverted, so I don't always like to decompress around other people, especially with what we do for work. Being a therapist, I'm around people a lot with like a lot of energy and intense emotions. So when I have time off, I just like chilling, being outdoors, going on walks. I'm a big fan of Bubble Bath. I'm big into like self-care when it comes to just being that literal self, just me, me caring for me. I'm away from people.
Dr. Liz:
I feel like I totally just put you on the defense, like, and how do you take care of yourself and. I'm not at all what. I'm doing, by the way, because I'm the last to judge on that. But glad to hear you've got your life together. Must be nice.
Talia Bombola:
It is. It's been a while and I constantly moving parts. But this year I finally hired out some help, which helped so much in all the things like in the book. I've talked about this before in other podcast, but in the beginning it was like for most of us you have an abundance of time, so you use that to build all that I have or other, you know, other people. I've sure have other other people. I'm sure I've built other things. And is it to build all that I have? And it wasn't until this year that I'm like, okay, this is way too much to have on my plate. I want it all to exist. I just don't want to do it anymore. So I also did everything I possibly could.
Dr. Liz:
And what a good feeling. I mean, when you get to the point where you're like, I have more than I have the ability timewise to do that, I mean, what a symbol of growth. I'm sure that's got to feel great for you.
Talia Bombola:
Yes, I often am shocked. I'm like, who was I all those years ago that built all of this? And I realized, like all those years ago, I did not have a partner, the one that I have now. We're not like. That lifelong. Relationship. Back then it was just dating or relationships. And I think it's much different when you are in the beginning and you want to do all these things. And there's this I always say when I'm doing like business coaching, it's like you have the audacity when you're climbing that first mountain and then once you've built all that you've built and you're not doing things out of need or to have your basic needs met anymore and you have to want it or you would like to do it, it's a much different way to be motivated. So that's where I'm at, climbing like the proverbial second mountain.
Dr. Liz:
Yes. And does your partner do similar work or.
Talia Bombola:
No, He is a firefighter.
Dr. Liz:
Okay, got it.
Talia Bombola:
No helping people. That's where we align. But I don't think I could date. I don't think I could date a therapist.
Dr. Liz:
tell me about that. Tell me about that. Tell you. Tell me how that makes you feel. I just.
Talia Bombola:
I like being the expert in that domain. I think that's why I would feel comfortable with it. Plus, I. I like having somebody who's totally different. I think I learned a lot, and there's just a different temperament style. Plus, I have a theory that most male therapists happen to be highly narcissistic. Not all of them. Obviously. I have two male therapists for my co-host of my other podcast, but as like an overall on dating apps from a lot of what I've seen, I'm like this is concerning or this is suspicious.
Dr. Liz:
So yeah, that covert narcissism is a real son of a bitch, right? Especially in like the, the helping professions. So therapy or pastor roles or we see a lot of that covert narcissism. So yeah, I hear you. And I think that I mean for all genders that certainly in the helping profession we run into that covert narcissism because it's like the altruism. But is anything really altruistic? Is, you know, I'm like, you still.
Talia Bombola:
Feel good when you do it. So there's no such thing as truly altruistic. You get nothing from you. You get feeling good from it or more.
Dr. Liz:
Yes, I completely agree. So on that note, we're going to get get into where our fucked up cynical views come from. Talking. About attachment. So, yes, you. And I hung out on your podcast and we talk all about attachment and I just loved our conversation so much and so that is what we're going to do today. Where do you usually start with even breaking that down for people? Yeah.
Talia Bombola:
So I start by I do psychoanalysis, so I start by describing where it comes from and the foundation of it, and then I scoop in or add in what that looks like in lifetime or in like day to day life. So does. That. Okay.
Dr. Liz:
Right. And so how do you feel like that differs? Give it some like let's let's start with anxious. How does that look different when you use psychoanalysis?
Talia Bombola:
So anxious attachment, it's hard to start there.
Dr. Liz:
Although where would you like to start? What feels comfortable to do.
Talia Bombola:
Starting with secure attachment, is a good optimistic. The lucky ones, as. I call them. So when we're looking at it from more of a psychoanalytic lens, secure attachment is based in the infant mother relationship and a lot of the writing is on mother. But this really is any primary caregiver that you could swap. And we just happened to use mother and how much twin ship how much mirroring how much were you met by your parent when you needed them and how many times were you missed when you needed them but they couldn't attend to you for whatever reason, especially when it comes to infancy. And we've often seen with parents who have their own anxiety or anxious attachment, it's fascinating in observation when the mom can't tolerate the baby looking away from her, when they're having those moments and she tries to keep getting the eye contact. And it's very intimidating for the infant. It feels intrusive. So any small interaction like that all the way to those day to day interactions is my diaper being changed? Am I being fed? Am I being nurtured? If I cry after all those needs are met, will somebody still come be with me only because I'm having these emotions until I can calm down? Can they teach me? Co regulation is really important, especially when we're talking about. Attachment. As well. So I like to start by talking about secure attachment at the base that you were met enough times that it overshadowed most of the times that you were missed and you can have a positive outlook on other people and trust in yourself. So if we're looking at Erickson's psychosocial stages of development, you have the trust. You've gotten that as a virtue. You have more of the autonomy, you have that sense of initiative You're climbing through like the positive ends of those two sided scales. And then when we look at anxious or avoidant attachment stemming from infancy, I received inconsistent caregiving and I coped with it in one of two ways. And then we can talk about disorganized afterwards. But if I learned that we're going to be consistent and I kept seeking it and I kept having to feel like I needed to be a certain way in order to obtain it, that usually manifests as anxious attachment, and then in avoided attachment, I learned to be self-sufficient because I interpreted my needs would be met. I have difficulty relying on other people or feeling close to other people because what if they fail me? What if I have to do it for myself? Then you have that like fearful avoidant. It's like a little scoop of both. And then disorganized attachment is when the exact people who should have and could have kept you safe from abuse and the terrors of the world caused the abuse and terrors of the world. So the foundation, it's really when we're seeing children who severe or suffered from really severe childhood abuse, they grew up in maybe foster homes, groups, homes, adoption. That primal bond was ruptured very early on. And there's I I'm writing about I will give you an excerpt I'm writing about it in one of the books that I'm writing, but it's almost like they're metaphorically holding this like umbilical cord that got severed too early and they're waiting to try and find a way to reconnect. But it just feels so scary for them to try and connect to anybody because of that very primal wound.
Dr. Liz:
Yeah. And the the that disorganize, which is that's the attachment style. I actually identify with. And that I think that historically it often does. It has been given to individuals who have gone through those very overt right traumatic upbringings. But what I have started to notice from my clients, my personal experience, that there's a lot of that covert trauma that also leads to the disorganized, and especially when we think about covert coming in the form of psychological abuse. And I don't think that that psychological abuse is talked about enough that that could be done through certain looks, certain facial expressions, whispering. Yeah, yeah. And so I think like that, you know, that's I guess my push back a little bit on the disorganized is that, you know, I grew up with two parents who stayed married until a couple of years ago. I mean, they were married for over 30 whatever years and they still found a way to create some disorganized children. So, you know, I really like to normalize that because of the stigma around that.
Talia Bombola:
And that's such a good point that you bring it up. It doesn't have to be the severe abuse often. And when I've worked with couples who come in for more of that psychodynamic psychoanalytic treatment, it does stem from more of the physical abuse or the neglect where they were left oftentimes and these are more severe cases, obviously, who are coming in for treatment. And there's an inherent bias, I think, that we have with the cases that we see in front of us. So I'm really appreciative that you brought that up because it does come from other things that are not related to the severe physical. It can be the emotional neglect or the psychological abuse that silent that we really can't prove. So sometimes we live with it being tucked away. It wasn't that bad. They were present, they were married. There's all these reasons why it shouldn't be as bad or why other people might tell us, Well, you didn't have it that bad. But it it's in the eye of the beholder in the person who went through it. So I'm really appreciative that you brought that up.
Dr. Liz:
And I think that the way that you described it is perfect and I can completely relate to that is the people who were supposed to I mean, that's that's our sole purpose as a parent is to keep that child safe. And they were actually the ones to inflict harm. And that yeah, that's that's that evokes emotion for me. Like when you were saying that because that is so true and I've written quite a bit on that as well as that. Just the mind fuck of that, right. That like the idea of I'm scared so I should be able to have something to go to. But then that place to go to is even scarier than what I'm scared of. And that push and pull. And so, yeah, I think you described that perfectly and then as you said, the lucky one. So let's go back to secure.
Talia Bombola:
Must be nice, right? Yes, I would say secure attachment If we're looking at it coming from infancy or something that we can earn or learn later on in our life, it is a consistent positive reinforcement pattern with a safe object. So if we're looking at like self psychology object relations, can this person tolerate all of my affects? Can they be there for me when I have a psychic collapse and I freak out? Can they be there for me when I'm very excited and I need support? Are all parts of me and all versions of me welcome and am I comfortable being close to them? And comfortable taking space away and those moments of connection and individuation over time. That's how we can learn to have secure attachment if we didn't have all of those elements from our infant and caregiver relationship growing up.
Dr. Liz:
Yeah, and great point because that is the whole basis of when people ask us, can we you change your attachment style? Absolutely. Yeah. Through those corrective experiences, right. In that the way you're describing it, I mean, that's exactly spot on because while it would have been ideal to get that from our caregivers and upbringing, that doesn't mean that we can't have a partner or a best friend or a mentor or other equals and start to create that foundation. How how often do you see that happen that like for your clients that they are able to find that secure base and start to shift that?
Talia Bombola:
I would say a pretty high success rate. Some I can't report because they've terminated treatment for moving or etc. during COVID. So we couldn't continue if they didn't want to. We couldn't because they moved different to different states or they moved within California, but they don't want to telehealth. So I would refer them out. But I would say between 85 to 95% have been able to secure themselves. And that buffer numbers, if that's their goal, some people coming in with the goal of acquiring a romantic relationship, they would just like to not feel like a raw nerve walking through life or like a very shut off, numbed out nerve walking through life. And then the relationship comes with time. Or they, I'm sure, have had that after we get met all their goals and more. And that I do get emails, but I like I found the person. I'm so happy. Thank you so much. And that's always exciting to see for sure.
Dr. Liz:
Do you run into where you maybe your clients struggle with understanding the idea of secure enough? And so like we get the people who are like, No, but I still got mad at him for not texting me back. He's like, Yeah, no shit, you're human. That that happens. Like, how do you usually manage that?
Talia Bombola:
I think that I manage that best by having them feel comfortable enough to express all of the feelings that come along with it. And then I ask, Okay, noted. And what would be different where we get your own individual level of secure enough and what would that look like? Would it look any different than it is now? And sometimes they say, No, it wouldn't. So then that lets me know we have to do a little bit more emotional work instead of it being like, Let's make an environmental shift or a relationship shift. So especially for anxiously attached people that striving for perfection or that fantasy partner and I know that happens with the weight and attachment as well that Phantom x phantom other what could be good enough and what can you tolerate? How much can you take in and how much closeness do you want? Because what happens when your partner starts giving you all that? The maybe typically avoidant people, if you're anxious that you've dated, have never given you before, what are you going to do with it? And one of my favorite analytic papers is called You're Giving Me What I Need, but I have no place to put it. And I mean, we could unpack that for a whole episode too, but that is kind of how it feels sometimes when we finally get all that we've wanted. And if we've done our work of securing ourself, we've created enough space to be able to receive that. What, what is being given to us.
Dr. Liz:
Yeah. And that distinction is, is crucial. I talk to my clients about that all the time, that the work to heal the work to heal your attachment wounds can it takes place individually but then also relationally and yet so many people and I would love to dig into this because that our societal just like bullshit message of you have to love yourself before anyone else can love you and be that is just screwing people up left and right. Because really the idea is, yes, we do have to do our own healing, but then the corrective experiences that we are talking about, that's we don't heal in isolation. You can't heal a wound that happened in relationship, in isolation through.
Talia Bombola:
So I, I don't agree I'm with you that I also don't agree with the statement that, you know, you have to before you can love yourself. What is it again? Can you say it again?
Dr. Liz:
Yeah. You had to you got to. Love yourself before you before anyone else will love you. Or you can. Yes.
Talia Bombola:
I think there's a certain level that a self, an individual has to reach within themselves to be able to accept love from another. So I it's not the exact way and I'm not even going to butcher it again. It's not the exact way the phrase goes. But I don't think until you feel worthy of love, you can recognize love, you can receive love give. I think there's a lot of the inner work to be ready and available to receive it so somebody could be trying to love you and all of the ways and all of the love languages and you might not know all those ways about yourself. So you block it or you don't feel worthy of it and you don't want it because you feel incapable of reciprocating it, so you shut it down. So I think it's a little bit different, and I'm sure other people talked about that too, but that's kind of my view of that concept in society is there's a little truth to it. More about the self-worth, self-esteem, which is kind of the area that I specialize in.
Dr. Liz:
Yeah, And I think that that the issue comes in, though, when we want people to learn how to be able to accept love without having the opportunity to practice it. And so I think that that's when when somebody is in relationship that I mean, first of all, I completely agree with what you're saying and with a lot of clients, single clients we all do like a lot of EMDR will work through a lot of the trauma that early on and help them to really start to shift beliefs and then even how they interacting with the coworker that upset them or the friend that rejected them. You know, we're able to use those early on as these examples. But then I think that the other part of the healing before the you have to be in it to be able to learn how to do it, because otherwise we can hypothesize what you know or imagine, but we don't actually practice it.
Talia Bombola:
Yes, I think it has to be done or would best be done concurrently. So doing the self work and a lot of attachment can actually repair with a therapist. That's why I like long term therapy equals it can take. The most recent study was from about a year and a half ago that I saw in therapy at least that it takes about like three and a half to four years of consistent weekly treatment for an if we're only looking at that for attachment style. The shift so big proponent of analytic psychotherapy, especially when the research backs it that it has to be done concurrently. How can we have you and I look all dating partners practice partners is not to be demeaning, but their practice their practice for how do I attach, how do I connect, how do I individuate? Could I tolerate being with you for the rest of my life? Or is this going to be too much on my nervous system and too much on my attachment system that I don't think either of us could be our best self as a partner if we're constantly pushing on each other's triggers. And I think of anxious and avoid an attachment almost like a competitive chess clock. And the closer you get to all of those wounds, the more it's just like they're just going back and forth rapidly. And if you don't have to, meaning if you're just dating for the first time and learning this about yourself, if you don't have to end up with a partner who really pushes on you versus people who discover it later in life, this awareness of, I think I've been in that anxious avoidant dance with my fiancee, husband, etc. for five or ten years. There's still help. Attachment systems can be changed, but if you can help it to not activate entirely, that's like the ideal goal. So I think doing doing the inner work at the same time that you're healing relationally and if your inner work is suffering because the healing relationally is too triggering or activating, slowing it back, taking a pause and maybe working with the therapist does like a pseudo corrective experience and then launching back out there.
Dr. Liz:
Yeah, I mean and truly is a corrective experience that we're able to offer in those settings. I think that a lot of people don't even realize that they're in the anxious avoidant because it is so similar. It's what they know. So they wouldn't even know I'm in a dance right now. They just think this is just relationships. Like one person pulls the other pushes back and forth or, you know, I'm always chasing, I'm always needy. Everyone out there is always rejecting me. Like it's just this idea that it is so universal versus really realizing these are my life experiences that are being played out repeatedly.
Talia Bombola:
That's and that's where I love repetition, compulsion as a concept. So you seek out what you had in childhood, whether it was good or not or beneficial or not, because it's familiar. And so not everything that we're familiar with is a quality thing for us. And things that were previously adaptive coping strategies do become maladaptive at a certain point when they get in the way of being in a real relationship with the person in front of you, as I like to say.
Dr. Liz:
And those adaptive behaviors as you're describing that are so linked with the interest in avoidance. So as you were saying earlier, that if we can get attention, if we beg for it enough as it as a child, if we're obnoxious enough, if we cry enough, if we tantrum enough, whatever we have to do to get that attention or, you know, with the avoidant same thing, they they feel uncomfortable. So they retreat. And those adaptive behaviors we develop for survival. And so they were so beneficial for us at one point. But then as you're describing, they become maladaptive and they actually the whole purpose of them at one point was for us to be able to obtain safety and connection. Yes. And now the very thing we still want in adulthood, safety and connection they are creating. I mean, they're completely pushing that away. It's really hard for people to wrap their heads around.
Talia Bombola:
This is I totally agree. And this is where slowing down and understanding those are people listening, slowing down and understanding what makes you feel safe and calm when you're anxious is the exact thing that's going to activate the avoidant partner's anxiety to not feel safe and not feel calm. And the converse is true or inverse is true as well. So if I'm avoidant and space helps me to feel soothed, too much closeness is going to make me feel anxious. So it's difficult to put the shoe on the other foot, you know, whatever the phraseology might be that feels best. But looking at it from that perspective can really help develop sympathy and empathy for the other position. Even if we don't like it, even if we wish it were different because we want somebody to be so close to us.
It's a delusion that we have to get over in analysis, especially it takes people quite some time. You don't actually want somebody who's exactly like you because you would drive you nuts oftentimes. And I've had people come in very high power figures are like, I do not want to date somebody who's this intense. I need somebody who's my counterbalance who can calm me down. Similarly with attachment styles, I want somebody who can stand there like a lighthouse in the storm and let me take my space so I can come back or be there and I can be closed. And that's the safest. The way to create the safest environment would be emulating that lighthouse in the storm for your partner. Even if you aren't secure yourself. What is it like to just sit there and be and surf the urge to run away or surf the urge to try and reconnect and get closeness and then you can learn to tolerate it. And that window of tolerance can slowly collapse in a safe way. And then you can now have secure attachment. So if you learn to tolerate the very thing that you go to as a coping skill, to not do it and just sit there and be the lighthouse, you too can have secure attachment. Yes. If you just do the impossible, you too can be allies. It's like, you know.
Dr. Liz:
Yes, I completely agree. And as humans, we are designed for adaptation. And so if we can sit in the discomfort, which is exactly what we do, any time we learn something new, any time we do something new, it is uncomfortable because we don't know it well. But we can learn it if we're willing to do it. But that starts with the self-awareness of even that I'm feeling triggered right now. And I have two choices. I can do what I've always done, or I can choose a different route, but that different route. And I know for me personally, sometimes that different route, like it's got me feeling like I want to crawl out of my skin, like it's just so overwhelming. So I completely normalize and have empathy for people who struggle with choosing that different approach. And it's taken me years and years and years and I still struggle. So I.
Talia Bombola:
Crowd anxiously. Attach and I congratulations. My partner is the most secure person on earth. I have determined that he is the oldest of six and his family is very, very healthy. I lucked out. I hit the jackpot and there's times I look at him and I'm just like, What's it like? Like when your brain is like, It's fine. Why? And I'm like, well, just just curious, what was it like having totally secure attachment since childhood? And he's like, What? And now he knows all the terms. So I love when he uses them. But it's so amazing what can happen when you are with somebody who can be so secure. And it's not a facade. It is truly genuine from the ground up, from infancy up, so secure and it's such a healthy template that it allowed me to secure myself and I had already worked towards that with previous partners. But I would pick the avoided the narcissist when I was struggling with codependency a lot and then back to the avoidant and then the anxious. And that I sampled the whole smorgasbord, if you will. And I feel as though I wouldn't have been prepared to be with someone so secure and spent a lifetime with someone so secure. Had I not done a lot of that work and had I not dated other kinds of people and it still flares up from time to time. But I can now share that with him and say, Yeah, I'm having that moment where 14 year old me is coming out and can you just be with us? And he's like, okay. And he'll just sit there on the couch while I cry. The other night I had a breakdown. I'm like. the. Worst part of my bed so strong. And although he's like, I love you. Have I said that to you? And I was like, he's like, Why are you crying? I was because I just like a lot of feelings. He's like, so secret. I'm like, okay, so you're not mad? He's like, No, and I love you and I'll never leave you and we're going to be okay. And I was just like, I love you so much. Even more, right? I like that. Was a sex like. But had I. Dated it at any other point or been like, we're doing this for life. It and the other point, I would have blown it up 1,000% and I very much so did early. On, at least a few times. And I remember I think one of our first. Dates, he came over. To watch a movie. And he was so tired from whatever work that he had. And he fell asleep on. And I was like, you know, hot like. Alarms. Are going off in my mind. I'm like, I'm being abandoned. I was not. He literally just felt comfortable and safe enough to. Fall asleep on my couch. Like, not at all. What my brain was saying. And I was like, do this, do that. And he was like, Why are you freaking out right now? And I was like, I'm not. I'm so he's like, No, see, little old me. He's like, It's going to be okay. I'll just come over tomorrow. We can watch it. I was like, You want to see me again? Like I had all that self-worth, self-esteem going on underneath and I'm well into adulthood. And I think having that for so long that everything I had wanted was now happening. I knew I had to change. I had to work on myself and not do what I had always done. And it yielded wonderful results. And that and learning that men think differently than women do. Those are my two. I think key ingredients to having secure attachment and knowing that, God forbid, if he ever passed away and I had to ever date again, which I never would want to at this point, I think I could do it securely because I've done so much work and I now have all of those fantasies proven true. So I know it's real and now I won't settle for less.
Dr. Liz:
And doing all that work helps us to be that much more even aware of like the red flags leading up to it. And so I think, like I talk with my clients about that a lot when they're dating is the more healing you do and the more more of that processing of previous experiences you will, the things that you have been historically attracted to that it's like, you're an asshole. That's kind of sexy, you know, like that's no longer going to be sexy to you. That that will start to be repulsive. Yeah. And I think that's one of the most powerful things of doing the work, is that you catch it before getting into it. And then if you get into it and you both have your own red flags, of course, but you're able to work through it more effectively because you you're choosing somebody that is much more on your wavelength than, you know, the opposite end.
Talia Bombola:
yes. The two studies that have come out that women, especially their young twenties, are highly attracted to that dark triad personality traits. It's very true, because it's edgy, It's the bad boy, it's the emblem of everything. We were never allowed to or shunned away from picking. If we're in a heteronormative lens and it's sexy and it's it's brooding and there's this primal protective and there is something to it. And we've seen this across other species as well, that we pick partners who could be the best at procreation and protection of what the family has been created and what they provided. But that's not always what laughs long term. So like that was primal. Let me just procreate and spread my seed instinct. Those partners are not always the best when it comes to fatherhood. They're very good at creating the life, but maybe not as good as sticking around and raising the life and then the ones who are good at that. Most women don't find sexy because they're nerdy, they're vanilla, they're secure, They're all the things. That you really do. They're boring. Yeah, They're boring, Right? Well, they. Text me back and hope the door open. No, I. Don't like it. Now, that seems like something's up. And that would be my word. I want to. Your.
Dr. Liz:
Well, it's so interesting because. So I was married for almost 20 years. I got married when I was 18 and we were married a very long time and early on in our relationship, I had attachment stuff, you know, flare up, but I was 18, so. Okay. But then over time, like, it was so interesting, I didn't become aware of how truly disorganized I am until we got divorced, which a lot of people are so confused by because I mean, he is such an amazing he's just a very kind, patient man. He is still very we're very close to this day and he is still my lighthouse in so many ways. And so that that was confusing to me, though. And when people talk about can attachment styles change based on relationships, that is like my prime example of that is like I thought I had my shit together. Like, okay, I might be getting divorced, but like I am very evolved and secure and then I didn't have him anymore. I didn't have my lighthouse house anymore and that fucked shit up big time.
Talia Bombola:
And this happens when we look even prior to our adult romantic relationships. If we lose an influential figure in childhood that can also rupture our attachment system and then shift them and especially influential ages. So around eight when the critical mind develops in adolescence, when we're having that identity versus role confusion, if a parent left or abandoned or we were orphaned or anything to that effect where the parent was not present anymore due to their own choice or life forces taking them out early, unfortunately that the attachment system will shift because the lighthouse is gone and that rupture and that change isn't something that can just heal overnight. Like attachment doesn't change in either direction overnight. It takes time. And if that influential figure, that lighthouse is not there anymore, we see how far we've come and it can feel like, wait, no, I didn't realize how many of these interactions that we had in these moments of connection were so beneficial to me. Feeling secure, I can feel secure simply by being near you. And now that the title has changed or the role has changed, can we still work to be supportive of one another? And it sounds like you're at least you're already there or you're on the track to being there.
Dr. Liz:
No, Emily, we've been there. And so that that part is, if anything, it gets sticky. Probably like when I'm dating and stuff in the sense that he's still my lighthouse. So he is still and coming from an upbringing with no lighthouse, it's like I am very attached to that, obviously. But it wasn't that I lost him in that way and even the shift in the title. Yes. When he's dating, the shift in the title is not great on my end. But Lighthouse. Yeah. Well, and because that is just so his character, that's just so who he is. And so when he's in a relationship as much as he loves me, I would never expect to be chosen over that because he will always be the lighthouse of who he is in his life actively. I mean, these are secure people. What the hell? I don't. I don't know what's with them, but so with that though, it just gave me like insights into I have to in order for me to show up as secure as I can show up, which is exactly what we're talking about in the sense of choosing our partners. Based on that, it has to be somebody who can stand, you know, weather the storm. And when I'm saying storm, I mean mine and that they're able to stay patient throughout that. That's huge for me.
Talia Bombola:
Yeah. And this is when we look at it and I can't help but go back to childhood. We all have transitional objects that help us take a piece of home with us. When we leave home, when we leave the safety nightlights, baby blanket stuffed animals at sleepovers. That's an emblem of my safety and security of home that I take. With me. It sounds almost as though your ex is that transitional object of the lighthouse. And so the work can be, How do I find the next lighthouse now that I know a lighthouse exists and he will always be there? How can I lean on that security much like I may have if I had that from childhood with my parents and go find a person, it's just a little bit different timing. Sorry, what a gifted Give yourself to go. Okay, wait. I already have that. And if I found it once, I can definitely find it again.
Dr. Liz:
Sure, sure. And I. Yeah, I completely agree. And Richard, don't let any future girlfriends listen to this episode because. You will. Be dumped after and I. Apologize in advance for me will be walked out immediately. That's true. They're like, shit, he is a lighthouse. Hold on tight. Yeah. That's being. I'm promoting his dating life right now. I was promoting. Yes. What's that?
Talia Bombola:
Inadvertently promoting his security document.
Dr. Liz:
How do you help your clients so when they're experiencing that, you know, and they're transitioning from relationship to relationship and really seeing the shift in their attachment styles, what is the meaning that you help them make of those experiences?
Talia Bombola:
I aim to help them develop insight as to what those changes look like on the surface. How are they interacting with people differently and what does it feel like internally for them to interact differently if they would have previously been frantically answering text messages and blowing up the phone? And they're not, they can see that it's different. How does it feel to be different? And sometimes it feels great and sometimes it feels like hell on earth and they don't want to have to weather that storm alone. And that's where the therapist being the transitional object Lighthouse, if you will, comes in because it's less shitty to have to go through it when you have someone who can be there and empathize. Yes, it's the worst. I understand all of the urges, to my own knowledge that you're going through and let's try to not do that or let's wait 48 hours before we freak out. And the I kind of give the joke of as long as it takes somebody to give a missing persons report is the same amount of time that you have to wait before you can freak out. Having a just attachment like you're not allowed to do it sooner because a lot can change in 24 to. 48 hours. So absolutely. It helps them to understand that it is going to look different. It will be different. And that's your new normal. You're going to retire your old behaviors as I like to word it, and re higher different behaviors to take the place of it. But much like a real company and a corporation, you don't just do a mass firing. Expect everybody to feel fine about it. There's going to be some heads rolling so you slowly retire the old behaviors that aren't helpful anymore. And you take a look at, Wow, this would have blown up this otherwise really great relationship. I'm so proud of myself. I'm so happy with myself. I didn't do what my gut told me to do, and I let that person show me who they truly are because so much of it is a self-fulfilling prophecy. If I think you're going to abandon me and I create an environment so intense that any sane or secure person is like, this is chaotic I can't do this would leave. We perceive them healthily, taking a stand as abandonment, or they waited while they were leaving anyway, or they were so much they were so needy. It's like or go with me on this. Did they have some more basic needs that if you've never met them or had them met, you didn't know how to meet them, so you took space away because you didn't want to let them down. They're like, probably that.
Dr. Liz:
Or that. And that that confirmation bias is is a big like it's what we do. If I believe this is going to happen or if I believe this to be true, I'm going to find every piece of evidence to support that. It's true. I had a client tell me recently she's been working with me for a couple of years now through attachment stuff. It's been a really powerful journey for her and she's newly in a relationship and she's just cracking me up. She had a situation where he didn't texter like he normally does in the morning. And so she was like, No, I'm just not I'm not going to say anything. I'm just going to ignore him. He deserves that. And she's going on this whole thing about it. And she was like, And then you popped in my head. So then I sent the text and said, like, you know, she was the one who initiated. And she was like, It was so powerful for me because she did the opposite of what she wanted to hear. And She a big thing that I use with my clients is like, Do you want to be right or do you want to be connected? You know, do you want to prove a point or do you want to be connected? And she said, like, you know, the the thing that I was craving the most, especially because he didn't text me, was that I was craving connection with him. And so normally I would have just then avoided and ignored. And she said, But by reaching out, she created the connection. And what a powerful moment that was for her to realize, because that evidence now, next time she's in that same situation, she gets to reflect back on. But when I did it this way, I got my needs met and it's just that's huge.
Talia Bombola:
It's yeah, I am smiling because I went through something similar very in the beginning of dating, and he left his phone in his friend's car. What? Something happened and it was like 12 to 15 hours that I didn't hear from him. And I went about my day. As hard as it was, I was like, I have meetings and this and that. This also highlights how important it is to have your own life and break out of those codependent or anxious attachment tendencies of like waiting, canceling plans, leaving too much space open in hopes that somebody is going to fill it. Once you live and create your own fulfilling life, it is easier to serve those urges when the codependency or anxious attachment comes up. And I remember like freaking out and I was like, That's it, I'm going to leave. He this is so disrespect, Rob. I have convinced myself I could. I'm like Michael Bay. I can convince myself of the most dramatic scenes in the world. And then he called me while I was like mid meeting and I was like, Hey, in a meeting he was like, okay, no worries. I just found my phone. I left it in so-and-so's car. I'm on my way to pick you up for lunch, and all of me was just going back. Are you fucking kidding me? You abandoned. Me. I don't think so. But part of me, I didn't know. He's literally honest. He has no clue how he's been feeling last hour. Many hours. You can either choose to blow this up and be a bitch like you have it in the past, or you can just ride the wave. And what would a secure person do? And I was like, Okay, sounds good. And I shared calmly at lunch, Hey, I do want to let you know I did kind of freak out. 14 year old me showed up. Next time, could you try and get a hold of me using something else? And he's like, Yeah, no problem. It's never happen again. So when you don't go through that, I'm going to blow this up because I've convinced myself of them being this terrible person. And this also relates to evolutionary psychology because it's so primal. Women think that if you felt a certain way about us, you would act a certain way. And that's not necessarily how men work and where we get what we want. We are far more susceptible to criticism as women. So we think that if we criticize you or withhold from you or punish you or do all these things that'll teach you, that's not what's going to happen. You are going to look crazy. And then you categorize as a crazy ex. And then people wonder what, like the feedback loop continues that we're trying to get away from in dating. So if you surfed the urge, what would my most secure self do? And if you don't know, then just research a shit ton about secure attachment and memorize their behaviors and emulate them until it becomes real.
Dr. Liz:
And I often encourage it's the action, the opposite action. Right? So yeah. Yeah. Yes, exactly. The DVT approach. So if your is to ignore, consider reaching out. If your tendency is to lash out, consider toning it down. But I mean, also, I'm speaking to myself on this like I definitely can completely relate. Can you explain real quick, like when you keep talking about surfing the urge? I love that. Can you help people understand what that is and how they could do it?
Talia Bombola:
Yes. So surfing the urge also comes from dialectical behavior therapy, DBT, where when you have an urge to do something instead of immediately giving in to the impulse, which in the kind of brain neuron connection, the more space and time you give with a compulsion or an action urge and in space away from the urge happening to actually doing it, the more that bond breaks so your compulsions will lessen. And it also is used to treat like OCD tendencies or full blown OCD. So instead of giving into the compulsion, you sit there and you learn to tolerate the discomfort that comes with it. And ultimately, if you still end up doing it, at least you bought yourself some time and space from immediately giving in to what the urge is. So you surf it and you ride the wave of it. No matter how uncomfortable it is, no matter how rough the waters are, you try and find a lighthouse and then at the other side of it oftentimes, and like doing other techniques like putting your face in a bowl of ice water, if that's not a traumatizing, trauma inducing incident, taking something and putting your physical aggression out, doing some pushups, taking a lap around the block, something physical to get that response out of your body because it is very physiological. And then take a deep breath and ask yourself, okay, it's been 5 minutes. If I still have the urge still, what would my most secure self do? So don't give in to the impulse right away. That primal, innate instinct is coming at you from evolution and infancy. It's not what you need to do in adulthood that's little you acting out and you need to have control of little you.
Dr. Liz:
And my little you that you've got them. Let's see. I appreciate all the work you've done for me to keep me safe, but I got you. Like you can calm down now and let me keep you safe. And sometimes that symbolic gesture of just reminding little you that you're here now and you're going to take care of it can be a really powerful thing. And that surfing the urges, like you're saying, increases the tolerance to be able to sit in that distress and allows for that adaptation to take place. And, you know, Viktor Frankl talks about that in between the stimulus and that reaction that there's this space, this like little pocket of time that I feel is so important to point out, because a lot of people are like, but it's just a gut reaction. But I just do it, but I don't even think about it. It just happens. And well, I know that it feels that way. There is that little gap of time that you get to decide what to do with it. And sometimes, like you're saying, it is go run around the block and just take a be.
Talia Bombola:
Yeah. And call a pause or a time out. If you start to notice, even when you've already even when the train has left the station and you've already lashed out, you could go, Nope, I am sorry. Can I please try that again? That was not what I wanted to have happen and I've had to do that many times. Yeah. And just you. Show if you can tolerate more of your human side and work on this is where that quote of like the self-love, the self-love, the self trust, the self reliance, but not to a hyper independent level. Once you can learn to be with yourself and integrate the parts of yourself that you're afraid somebody else might find out about you, it's a lot less scary to go through the world because if anybody finds that out about you, guess what? You already knew it and they can't use it against you. So it makes it a lot easier to be a healthy and safe individual and then you own it. I'm sorry, I was just about to yell at you because my daughter, I call her the dragon lady. My dragon lady was about to be unleashed. And that's not fair to you because this is about me being hungry. You actually did nothing wrong. Can I try it again? And he's always like, Sure. And again.
Dr. Liz:
It's like. The.
Talia Bombola:
Attachment. I both hate and envy and I'm just like, What? But I also love him. I don't actually hate him at all. And envy. Where I just stare at him and I'm just like, You're the. Best. This is the coolest thing with you. Like, it's so cool. And he's like, I remember one thing that made me burst into tears a while ago. We were sitting there playing cards on like a camping trip, and I remember talking to him about like, fears about parenthood, etc. and he was just like our kids will know what real love is. And I was just weeping, like weeping. After all I've explained to him and I have you know, I have parents that are still but I had my own stuff from childhood, and every parent has their own stuff while they're raising themselves and raising us at the same time. And that was like such a big fear, knowing how important those attachment systems are. And it s u up in the mind when you learn just how much you. Can screw kids up if you get it wrong and. How to get it right. And I just was feeling so stressed and pressured and he was just cool as a cucumber. Like, it's going to be fine. We'll figure it out. They'll know it. Real business like. This is the best friend ever. Thank you. He's just. I use him as a model so many times in my life and in my teaching. And then I go home and tell him I'm like. And I apologize for last night and being a psycho. And he's like, okay, what do you want for breakfast?
Dr. Liz:
Like, it's such a beautiful light house. You have. Yes. This is such a good conversation and so helpful for so many people who can hear two mental health professionals talking about like as much knowledge as we have and as much experience as we have in it. Like, we still struggle, we are still human like everyone else. And this, you know, that there is hope, but also you can mess up and it's okay that that self-compassion piece is so huge. Like you can be human and that's okay. We're all just doing literally the best we can.
Talia Bombola:
Yeah.
Dr. Liz:
At least trying to tell you where can people find you on social media or website?
Talia Bombola:
Yes, my website and my social media handles are the same, so it's totally a bumble dot com. I'm most active on Instagram. I'm trying to get started on Tik Tok, but I am doing so by dragging my heels. Eventually I might be on there, but for right now, Instagram is the best way to find me.
Dr. Liz:
Well, very good. I really appreciate you hanging out with me today. I just adore you. You are so funny. You're so real. I just have so much respect for the work that you're doing. So thank you for hanging out with me.
Talia Bombola:
Thank you. And the feeling is mutual. Thank you.
Dr. Liz:
Thank you, Talia, for hanging out with me today and for sharing all about your attachment journey. And thank you all for hanging out Unrelatable relationships unfiltered. Make sure to subscribe to our YouTube channel, Sign up for my newsletter and find me on Instagram at Dr. Elizabeth Fedrick.