Relatable podcast 

Estelle:
I know. I do know that another artist is off my list because I'm clear about myself. I know who I am and I know how I work as an artist. I don't want to look at that in the mirror every day. That's scary. It would be like two therapists talking to me. Very few therapists verify each other. The whole like, Yes.

 

Dr. Liz:
No, I have dated a therapist and yes, that's exactly what it's like. This is relatable. Relationships, unfiltered. Hey. Welcome to Relatable. Relationships Unfiltered. Today I'm hanging out with the beautiful, talented, internationally known Estelle. We get super vulnerable about the things she's learned in therapy and how that's influenced her boundaries and expectations in her dating life. All right, so my fellow single lady, we connected through Instagram and lots of shared, I think, passions, viewpoints in terms of relationships. And I wanted to chat with you about like, what your world is like dating relationship and all of those things.

 

Estelle:
geez. You know, I'm not one of those people that puts all the things out there, but I definitely have a lot of opinions on it. You know, having, you know, I'm 40 I'm 42, be 43. And, you know, spin life has been fun. It's been a journey. Sure. You know, day in and stuff, It's it's intense. And it's wild and it's it's weird.

 

Dr. Liz:
Right? Well, how old were you when you got into really? I guess, like the limelight? I guess, is the best way to say it. Like, because that obviously influences dating as well.

 

Estelle:
yeah. I've been known to parentheses since I was about 1920, in different stages. Right. Okay. In the U.K., like local and then it you know, it graduates. But once you're kind of out there, of course, every magazine and or across the world on every stage, there's no like dialing it back. Like, there's no like, now I go into obscurity. There's none of that. Like, that is what it is given. And I think I spent way too much time trying to give it, trying to dial it back into obscurity. And that worked against me, honestly. So it's been an interesting rough would be relationship wise. I've tried to have relationships kept and quiet, tried to be open about them. That was very strange.

 

Dr. Liz:
With which I seem to be. Melissa, the producer and I were talking before you came on and we were talking about that, that like your social media is, is relatively private. Like you don't your shit is not like blasted for the world. What is that like for the person that you're dating? Like, do they ever get insecure or that you don't put them out there like that?

 

Estelle:
No, they like it. They like it. Well, okay. They like it because I well, first of all, I started, you know, like I started being known in in an era where there was no social media, so there wasn't the pressure and no one really cared about your love life unless you were like Beyonce, fame, Madonna, Mary J. Blige. Levels like no one cared that you were whoever you were, unless that was to be the hook of your career. And that wasn't the hook of my career. I had talent. I do other things. I actually do a thing. You know, my thing is that I'm not I'm not you know, I'm not I just I have an actual talent thing that I do. And my career, my brand is based on who I'm dating, and it's not literally part of the sellable thing. So it wasn't ever a pressure to be like, she dating and what is she, you know, and who are they? A couple power couple and their name squished together is still something. You know it was never that for me. And I you know, and I'm very grateful that it's never been that you know, I see the value and it works for other people and it's gorgeous to me. That's never been like a thing. So he doesn't care. He genuinely like he, you know, any any guy that day doesn't care. Like they're not really. And a couple of them have felt some type of way. And, you know, that was a red flag for the they.

 

Dr. Liz:
They felt that way about you not post like not having them out there on.

 

Estelle:
The underneath were all they felt that they felt some type of way and I was always like okay that's the red flag of all the red flags. Yeah, we're done here. Thank you. It's been fun.

 

Dr. Liz:
Well, and that's what I was thinking to you, that you probably my guess would be you're probably not attracted to the type of man who would want you to expose them in that way or to be flashy in that way, because that doesn't doesn't seem like that's really your vibe. That's not really your personality to begin with.

 

Estelle:
It's really not. I think there's a there's a definite delineation between who I am as a style and my career. You know, I'm not my career. You know, I'm very clear about that. It got murky at one point where I felt pressured to be so far into it, you know, and everyone was looking for me to be that person. And so I felt pressure and then I fell into it to a degree. And, you know, I had an awesome awakening and got the hell out of it. And how.

 

Dr. Liz:
Did you catch.

 

Estelle:
This guy, this girl? How did you get your professional too far. my days, you know, And it wasn't even being in a relationship because I was in a relationship. But as I got out of the relationship, I was, you know, the reality of who was my friends, who were my people, who, you know, who was who was hiding, who was lying, who was got nothing to do with me, you know. Meanwhile, it was everything to do with if you knew and you didn't tell me, you know, like things like that loyalty. But like, all of that stuff kind of kicked in. And I thought I had to do an assessment because I was like, Well, what am I giving out that's making people feel like it's okay to treat me that way, you know? And that was part of the awakening. That was part of the whole you're not your career, you're whole human, You have personal goals. You want to hit those goals. You have real life things that are happening that you want to do and your career and your life and your trajectory is not any less important than your friends who, due to a disease, reggae, regular life stuff, it's not any less important just because you are who you are. You've done what you've done in the world. You know, like you're all you know. Your stuff is important to stop belittling that. And so that was the that was the learning, parenting, all the things.

 

Dr. Liz:
Process Did you go through were you actively going through therapy? Would you using the term re parenting? Is that.

 

Estelle:
Yes. Yes.

 

Dr. Liz:
Did you do that for many years or what was that like?

 

Estelle:
I'm still at therapy. I refuse. I refuse to not be in therapy. Like it's not it's not every single day for every four years long process. It's periods of time. Like I have someone that I can speak to, a couple people that I could speak to that work with different areas of my life that helped me to move through this. I haven't done this before. I've done this like before. My parents have done my life. No one knows what it's like to be me in this era, in this time, and to live. And I say that again. Take me aside from the career separate things, no one knows what it's like to be me, have experienced what I've experienced, move through this life the way I moved through this life, you know? And so and I don't feel like you said this in some of your prose. I like it. We have been. Have we? You know, none of us know how to do this. Like we're all just trying the thing and hoping for the best. So for the information, go to somebody that may have a clue.

 

Dr. Liz:
And I love that you're saying that because, I mean, as as you know, that's a big part of my message is that even as a relationship expert like that, I still am trying to figure out my own shed every single day. And like my and my journey is my journey and the things that I can help people process through and make sense of. I might struggle with that same exact thing the next day. And that's what's so important to me. And it's exactly what you're saying is like who we are as a human is not our career. So we could be really good at our career. We could be thriving in our career and have personal struggles.

 

Estelle:
And it it's the thing I was going to say to you was like the way that you see me or the way that people meet me often is through my career, right? And then they sit down with me and I, you know, you get to see the good parts and social media and social media and you get to see the I figured it out. You don't get to see me figure it out. But, you know, right when you meet me and you're with me in real life and any of my relationships, friendships, husband, boyfriend, whatever, it's very much you get to see the figuring out part. And that part to some people is like, it's not as glistening as I thought it would look. Yeah, And that's a lot.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah. That, that's probably one of my biggest insecurities when it comes to dating. You know, I joke a lot about being single and like avoiding dating and those type of things, but that's put really beautifully. That's probably one of my biggest insecurities, is that the way that people see me present and they see the knowledge that I have and then to show them behind the curtain, you know, and that like, like you're saying that, that figuring out process and that when I do stumble, that's hard to be vulnerable like that when people know you a certain way.

 

Estelle:
Is difficult, but it's also it's not going to not happen. So what are we going to do right. I'm going to look crazy sometimes. I'm not going to have concealer on and I'm going to look like my house is going to look like the inside of my brain sometimes and it's going to be a mess. But you know what? At the end of that week, it's going to look great, going to look like it's going to look like Pinterest. Mean any you know what I mean? So, yeah, hopefully when you.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah. How do you usually so when you do date, how do you usually meet the people that you date? Is it all different.

 

Estelle:
it's all different. I've in the past, how would I say in the past three or four years it's been a moment of trying to open myself up. Right? They and I find myself again remembering is remembering who I was. So I'll rephrase as I will go in. I went into this whole period of my just the open, just the open the door so that I've got to let it be right And then that day, a lot of people that shouldn't have had access to me and I would say that in the in the in the I me way I'm in that in the know, these are my standards are my boundaries. And you have none. You are so intent on disrespecting every ounce of that. You don't actually like women, you don't actually like yourself and you don't actually like women in the context of like you resent. You have mother issues. And I am not the one to take it out of because I come across as caring and loving right? No, I don't replace me for the things that you have to go figure out with your parents and they get a few of them in between. And that that was my lessons. Like, okay, now you see the flags. Don't keep doing this to yourself. You know your boundaries, you refuse, don't do this, you know, and and then again, it was no access to me in the sense of like, if I hadn't been in the space, you know, dealing with being so super open and being like everybody, hey, you know, so to me, I wouldn't normally deal with or talk to like, but, you know, maybe when the day but, you know, they were there for a purpose and I was there for a purpose and I was supposed to learn from it. You know, it was it was a wild time in a while. A couple of years. Yeah. Yeah. Wow.

 

Dr. Liz:
What would you say is the main thing? Like, what have. What are you drawn to that you maybe wish you weren't? What are some of those things that you notice are a pattern?

 

Estelle:
I and this is where I guess and my friends laugh at me a lot, but I'm one of these people. I take all the things into account. Cancer of man. I'm a capital woman. We are drawn to cancer, you men, right? We're drawn to them because it's like they're doing things like they're our father. It's a mother's side. Everyone has them. Our reasons to Libra. Gemini is that, you know, like six months apart. Essentially, it's like 7:00, and I'm drawn to them because they just seem really nice. You know, they do the thing that is inherently not Capricorn, which is have their feelings on their sleeve. You know, they're very lovely, they're persuasive, they have less wisdom a lot of the time that the campaign manager to me have this other side that's very resentful of me and my, you know, and my how would I say my, my business, You know, it's almost like they feel emasculated immediately and I can do nothing about their, you know, my way of giving love and being open and being vulnerable with them is not enough. And so they're passive. They were both routinely passive aggressive. They would lie. It was just like my eyes were open and like, stunned. And I closed my photos and we finally came here to be like, my God. this is horrible.

 

Dr. Liz:
yeah.

 

Estelle:
I mean that.

 

Dr. Liz:
that's a hard realization. Do you feel like you So you're saying you learned the lesson from that? Like, yeah. How do you how are you trying to I guess we that out, so to speak when.

 

Estelle:
Well is being more open, is standing up for myself. I think the lesson that them was opening my mouth and speaking and being vulnerable, they were very vulnerable. They were very open with their with their how they felt. And they you know, whether it was passive aggressive or whatnot, they were very clear in their actions and their slickness. And they, you know, the one line that they would come with and I would just hold it and feel like, let me just not say anything to rock the boat, which is something I had to kind of get over and and deal with from being young. You know, the way I was taught to be as a woman, as a as a young girl. And yeah, those are my lessons in life now. So you'll be because they have no qualms in your feelings. They have no qualms trampling over your boundaries. These people, these men have no issue of being mean to you. Why would you let that happen but up for yourself? You know.

 

Dr. Liz:
It sounds like in the work that you were doing, recognizing that that comes from did it come from your relationship with your father, with your mother, with both? Like was it role modeled where they come from?

 

Estelle:
Okay, It was role model. It was in our family tree. We've since worked through it and we continue to work through it. Now, my mom, my great friends, now what we want so much is in life now. We were good friends with my mom when I was a kid, but we're great friends now. We're able to talk about everything in my like, Do you know that when you did this, when you were younger? This is how I relate. I relate. Now, please, I'll do it to the younger ones. Or if you speak to them, you know we have conversations like that. Yeah, nine of us. So I'm able to give her real time feedback and real time. You know, like, you know, this is something that you do that isn't cool. And she'll tell me, I see you doing this. And it reminds me when I was younger, don't do that, you know, And we're able to yeah, I look for it from her. Yeah, my I go out of my way. I'm. I'm so grateful that I can, you know, there's a lot people don't have the option don't have a parent that's that receptive and I'm and they're not receptive but I feel like I've I've been not beaten but I've had enough, you know, I feel like when you've had enough of your own mess, you figure it out. You do what you need to do. So I've been in that place of having had enough of not knowing why or not knowing how to to be in relationship, to figure it out, you know.

 

Dr. Liz:
Right. Where you where you married it anywhere along. Have you been married before?

 

Estelle:
No, I've just been in a long relationship. I'm a relationship girl. I'm okay. I stay in it, you know, no matter what. Yeah. Until I have things to learn from standing up for myself and not doing. And. And I was one of those that I've been in, like, three, four or five year relationships. And it was just, I think the last one when I first got out, I was like, I hate her, You know, I always felt like this. And then I did some checking on myself and I was like, maybe with you, you know, And that that was part of the awakening. Like you did something. We reacted in some ways. Sometimes it's not really them, sometimes it is, sometimes it's not. You know, like it's playing both sides.

 

Dr. Liz:
And I think that's most often right, that it's a combination of both. That's that's a lot of my recent awareness of, you know, is really not being not rocket science but it is it's powerful when you realize that when you trigger somebody and then their reaction to it is going to trigger you back and then you're, you know, and then you just start going back and forth. And it's like the root of the issue didn't have to be that to begin with. But then you attract people who their triggers are reactive to you. And that I mean, that's a big part of relational programing.

 

Estelle:
It is the attraction of it all. Like, yeah, I keep in the back of my mind, all right, Every time I get angry or I get mad about something, what is what is this person teaching me? What is the point here? And I do it from a place of why not me? You know, like I'm not No one, not one of us is perfect. And why not me? In this period of time, on this day? Why don't you know? I keep I remind myself of that even in the middle of my being pissed to the ends of the earth, right? I'm like, Why not me on this day? And this time maybe I need to sit it down and just have a thing. Yeah, you know, I do. I do my best thinking. Yeah, like, do my best thinking. When I'm at. I need a day. I mean, I need, I need a week. I need to. I need them. I need a night. Leave me alone.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah.

 

Estelle:
You're not going to win. Just give me a minute.

 

Dr. Liz:
Don't you guys ever to be. And I think that that the the anger of that really, when we boil it down, it's like, you know, the anger usually under that is irritability and under the irritability is anxiety. And under the anxiety is hurt. And when we really look at the hurt, the hurt is coming from the inner child. You know what? What need is not being met. And that is most often. So everyone just sees the anger. But really, it's like this child at the core of it every time.

 

Estelle:
And and the more I recognize it myself, the more I recognize it in others. So I'm able to talk that when I'm being I'm able to talk a bit more. I'm able to calm myself down a little bit or just like pull back from, you know, without feeling like I'm being shut up or I'm being shut down. I'm like, Well, hold on. Maybe just listen. Instead of feeling like I need to get all my thoughts out all at once in this moment, right? Less than a minute. Cause there might be something here that's going to help your thoughts along the way or give you a completely different perspective that you weren't even thinking about was actually the thing, you know, like, if I'm if I'm having a conversation, having an argument and one thing I've been working on is not over talking, my thing right will stop me in the middle of it and be like, Let me finish my thought. And like, normally my reaction would be like by sort of saying the thing I say because like, I actually think because I, you know, and on my end and if you're on the phone like, you can't see my actions, right? So you're just hearing this voice and you're hearing this loud voice going. And so I've learned to just literally and I don't feel like I'm being overrun in this instance. I don't feel like I'm my opinion isn't important. I just feel like, there's there's another voice who is another there's another opinion that might actually help me along the way. Get to the point. Now I can let him say what he needs to say at that point. I can say what you need to say. Listen to it, actually process it. And if it makes sense, apply it. If it doesn't work, now is another opinion, another point of view. And it doesn't mean it doesn't mean that anything breaks or anything any toys are thrown out of prams. Just another point of view.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah. It takes a lot of practice, though, to be able to do that, because I definitely part of my childhood trauma is not having a voice and not being able to speak up and express myself. You know, it was very authoritarian upbringing. And so what they said was the law. And so I find myself getting I get reactive in those situations. But also similarly doing a lot of practice around like, okay, I don't have to be bigger and louder in every situation because sometimes there is value in that, sometimes more often.

 

Estelle:
But yeah, how are you going to know that there's actually value? So I got you to a prime example, but more often than not there is value. And also sometimes it doesn't even matter. Like, you know, we're sitting there going this point of view, of this point of view, this point of view, this point of view and you get to the end of the night and you're like, All right, the price of my mortgage didn't change. I'm still my size. I same amount of chocolate today. My wage is still the same. Nothing that matters in real life to you has changed. Yeah, but you needed to. You needed to fight this moment through to the points of the points. And it's something worth just thinking. Let me just for a second. It doesn't mean shooting yourself down. It just means listening. Like this means having an open air, you know? And to be fair, I'm always like, I give the point of view, like there were some men who will use it or some others or significant other might use that to manipulate, which isn't cool ever. But your spirit knows when that's what that is. You know, your instinct is like, I don't know. I don't know about that.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah. And it's then your responsibility to catch that, to be aware of that, to set boundaries around it, to remove yourself from those situations. Like I think that that's a great point that these healthy behaviors, just because some people are willing to exploit them, doesn't mean that we don't still practice them. It means we remove ourselves from the exploiters. What were some of the reparative activities that you did in therapy or or are currently doing that you've found to be effective?

 

Estelle:
Well, one thing I've done that and I say this because I realized it recently was I used to I had a story in my head about once I got going, when I was like, Hey, the world famous because it's conditioning. That's the reality of it was once I got to know her and a lot of that wasn't what it was. It became it became, I'm going to buy all the things in the world because that's what famous people do. I'm going to buy every single thing I ever wanted. And all the planets moved away. And I was like, trying to figure out why that was my natural reaction. And it got beyond what all my friends, all my famous friends, and I've seen everybody famous do it, too. All right, You're doing it even when you're down to your last penny. What is this. Right. And even when you know you shouldn't be doing it, you should be paying for something else, you're still going to go ahead and by the authorities. What's wrong with you. What do you do. And I realized that it was kind of my inner child like screaming to me to be told yes for one. Right. When I was younger, when I was a kid, I was the oldest. I'm the oldest girl. So I would always just kind of given to my mom doing things for the youngest. And I remember her validating me one time saying to me, you know, of all the kids, Estelle would be okay if she didn't go on a school trip. I know she'd be okay if I was just to say no, because I don't have the money to do it. And it made me feel like I was, you know, the favorite or the mom to the kid. She didn't do it on purpose. I wasn't her point. She would just make a point about being grateful for, you know, and sometimes being humble and then somebody else have it. But I took that as I'm the hero because I you know, and also it's part of the train of me suppressing when I wanted something and just kind of being a what I it I shouldn't because somebody else is going to want it and then someone else the family needs it more than me. And it trickled into other moments of my life or that person's life because they're living. What seems to be the dream is more important than my life. So I don't deserve to complain that I'm unhappy single. I'm unhappy in a relationship. I should just take whatever was given to me, you know, without having a choice. So I realize now that that's more like about my younger, you know, my little girl inside crying out just to have what she wants when she wants it, and to be okay with that. Right. You're allowed to have things and you're allowed to being allowed to have the beautiful thing and do the thing. And it's it's totally okay. Right? So I buy myself what I want when I want, you know.

 

Dr. Liz:
The moral of the story.

 

Estelle:
But I love stories that I do without any guilt because I know where it comes from. And I don't feel like I don't feel pressured in any sides of the world. I want to be able to do this to have the lifestyle I wanted when I was a kid. And I have it now and I'm grateful for it and I thank God for it. And I give as much as I as I buy. You know, I, I reciprocate. I'm not I'm, I give so much like I'm clothes to donate like I'm conscious of the cycle of it all. But where it started from with me was a thing where I was like, okay, you can't feel guilty every time you buy yourself a pair of shoes that maybe you shouldn't be like, or you can't feel guilty every time you take yourself on an amazing holiday that maybe why wouldn't you just tell all your friends to come along and pay for them with the come? You shouldn't feel guilty whenever you do nice things for yourself or have nice things in your home. You know, go out of your way to make it look just not as good as you know it could be. You know, like little things like, yeah, more the life things. And it was just like, no, I, I just. I deserve it. Because I do. Yeah, that's the baseline of it. You know.

 

Dr. Liz:
It's a huge part of healing because that and minimizing yourself and, and that your belief of I'm not worthy or I don't deserve it and I can completely relate to that. I do it probably more with my son than with myself though. But that compensatory, you know, growing up with not a lot. And so then as you're saying, working really hard to have a different lifestyle. And so I catch myself going overboard with my son because of things that I wanted, you know, when I was a child.

 

Estelle:
And you should have you should have like I found myself saying that with my nieces, with the kids around me, they should have all the things. And this is like if they have all the things, that's good. But also they have love. That's good and all the things harmony, you know, there's the space for all this space to have all the things, the space for not all the things, the space for balance, the space for, you know, being a thoughtful, thoughtful kid, the space for you can have every day. Sam Jordan that comes out, you can have, you know, it's the inside, it's the core, it's who you are as well. Having all the things is great when you take those things off and give it to somebody who doesn't have them to, you know, to because you're a good human, because these are things, you know, these are horrible things. Things. Yeah. I mean, what will you do with the things you find? The find the harmony and the balance and all? That's my that's my thing. So just not being, you know, not being scared to.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, let yourself be seen. Let yourself be taken care of. And that's, that's huge. So tell me when you're dating currently, what are some of the things you look for in a partner? So it sounds like you had these longer term relationships and then you're saying the last few years it's been more dating, not committed. Okay.

 

Estelle:
Yeah. They, they it is just because it's just not about out there and people crazy about getting your husband. it's a wildcard. I don't like it. It's not fun. No, it's again. And then I they scaring me. I want to say I want to I'm very much like yeah, I've not been the person. So and then another this is one thing that I've been wrestling with. I've not been the person that when I date, I introduce them to everybody because as soon as I do, it becomes What's the story, what's the weekly update, what's going on in your life? And I'm like, It's never been that. Stop asking me. I don't want to be your friend no more. I get out of your daily business. That's not of that business is like, I'll see what happens in your house, what goes on with you? Look at it like I and and I try not to be the friend that is inside of every single one of my friends relationships. I do not care. I just care that you're good and you're loved and you feel happy. And if you're minimizing yourself, then you know, I know you want to vent. Heard you. But we're going to find a solution to this, you know, or we're going to find a solution. But what we're not going to do is sit down and, you know, we're not going to I don't I don't wish to do that to be that friend. So I don't like it that again, because I do with the thing the the the truth of it all is you're supposed to let me into your life. I don't have to do anything. I just, you know, I'm trying to love me and I'm trying to find somebody who loves me to say I love me and in the way they don't love me. Anyways, I'm learning to love myself. So, yeah, that's not up for discussion. Or, you know, it doesn't say that again that the sanctifies your, your mortgage, my life, my emails so and so it's hot it's a little more difficult to to date with those parameters you know because again then the people that want to be in your life or you know your thing is Lincoln. I mean your friends so this can be solidified, so that can be overwhelming. So we can go on the ground. Never.

 

Dr. Liz:
Never does that make you feel stressed, Like do you where would you fall sweating?

 

Estelle:
I'm sweating. As I'm saying. A lot of it is my armpits.

 

Dr. Liz:
What is your attachment style? Are you are you aware of that? Like introverts avoid it. Like where?

 

Estelle:
I mean, I've been learning that and honestly, it confuses me. I want to say I don't know if it's anxious. I want to say it's somewhere in the attached, anxious. I don't I don't like when you and I've been this is something again I am aware and I'm working through. When you are like where they are, what they do and what's happening with them, what's going on in their life when they're not with me. Right.

 

Dr. Liz:
Do that or you don't.

 

Estelle:
I do that.

 

Dr. Liz:
Okay. So yeah, so that would be definitely in the anxious category.

 

Estelle:
Okay. And and that's where we can. So thank you for saying that, because that could work for her with some guidelines. Yeah. But it's, it's very I have to fight to be like okay, you have a life, you have a very full life. Where did this extra time come to be bothered about what they're doing in every minute of the day would end up with you. And why do you not trust that. What you, what you have done and what you have said to them is, is good. You are protected in this scenario. So that's why they, they in because it's very much like if I can't, if I don't feel like you've come in or said the thing and I'm I need verbatim verbal I need the person to say the thing. Yeah it's it's weird you know, and it doesn't make me feel like I want to be outside with the world this time with anybody. You know, it's a little it's a trust thing. It's, you know, it's developing that. And then it's just the consistent trying to remind myself it's okay, the world isn't out to get you. Not every man in the world. She wants to be mean to you. These others that you is. That's not it's not to do with you. There was lessons to learn. What you learn and move forward. It's okay. It's hard that it's all it's a it's a mess and it's a ongoing thing. And I don't think it stops in relationships because I have friends that we have these discussions and they are fully in relationships. Yeah, you know, and that's where we married.

 

Dr. Liz:
Down the attachment styles. I mean that really follows you from dating to until it's resolved and you work towards secure, whether it's the anxious like you're describing where it's like, what are they doing, where they at. And always worried about that, the avoidant which is you know, kind of pushing away don't want anyone to close. And then the combination of that with the anxious avoidant or the disorganized where you kind of vacillate between come your close now go away career closed and unfortunately I fall into that latter category, which is really effing confusing for.

 

Estelle:
Everyone around me. How, how does that go? How does that go? And tell me how that goes? Because I like I want to know what that looks like.

 

Dr. Liz:
Well, so it's like I struggle a lot with commitment because what you're describing with the trust issues, I, I struggle a lot with trust. And so to allow to get close to me, that feels really scary and that that's really hard for me. But then when I do let someone close, then that's where some of the anxiety comes out because it's like, okay, I've let you in now, please don't hurt me. And so I get anxious, but I'm hyper vigilant for any sign that they might be out to hurt me so that I can push them away.

 

Estelle:
That and that's the part I've been working towards. You see, when I said most of the times I feel I recognize that most of the times I always say, I'm not going anywhere. I'm going to stick around. I have to say to myself, you know, I have to remind myself, I'm not going anywhere. I just need to work through this. Give me a minute. You know, and and I have to I've done that with myself over the past couple years. And I remind myself in those moments, it doesn't mean that you're going to stick around and be hurt. But the other me, you are actively just going to work through this. The thing that you said you were going to do is what you're going to do doesn't mean you're going to stay here forever and be sucked into another five year relationship madness. It means you're going to work through this Now, Estelle, what's the next step? Well, through this, yeah, I am. And then. And then there's the next day, you know. Right. I take it in those moments instead of trying to look at what I, what my energy is towards it all my attachment to the is as a build and or that's where I'm at, that's where I'm going to stay. I look at it like there's a way outside of it as a way to reform myself. You know, if I to take this one task at a time. And that's not really powerful.

 

Dr. Liz:
It's yeah, when you can do that because then you're regulating that one experience and you're able to look at it as at the present moment versus this, you know that everything they are because I find that I do that, you know, in moments when I'm feeling hurt or I'm feeling scared with with someone I'm dating or a partner, that all of a sudden they that paints who they are, you know, the in totality when it's like, you know, they're actually a really good man, we're just having a rough moment. And so, like you're saying, being present in that moment can help you. Okay, wait a minute. Take a breath.

 

Estelle:
Take a sit out of that. Right.

 

Dr. Liz:
Relax.

 

Estelle:
I breathing a lot. Yeah. They will see me breathe and breathe out. Or I'd be like, so.

 

Dr. Liz:
Tell me before we wrap up. Want to ask a couple of questions? I do this with a lot of my guests. I like to know what peoples their needs, their once in their boundaries are. So if you were to think of like a couple of things, let's say two things that you need in a partner. So non-negotiable, what would that be?

 

Estelle:
Consistency. Okay, good one. And physical touch like touching it. Yes, I'm affectionate. And who is consistent now? I say consistency in the sense of like be consistently who you say you are. And I know that we are. We shift and change as humans. But if you consistently shift during the change of be that, you know, don't flip flop every every 3 minutes of the day, it's because to me that is manipulation. Sure, Yeah. Puts me on. Exactly. And I never know what to do. And again, that's manipulation that's so that made most time so that the other person doesn't have to commit. Right. Which is to me is just get out my space, not wasting my time. Yeah. And with the thing I just said to affection, all right. I am the world's biggest hugger now. I've discovered I like to cry in the past few years and I like to hug quality in those two cats areas. Like, I cried a lot in the period in the three year period. And it wasn't them. It was just what they triggered or I. So like every 2 minutes I'm like, I'll sit down and watch a TV show and just be on my own and be in the house like, God, what is going on? Let me go like, and be embarrassed. Cry by myself in my head. but me bawling, right, bawling. I'm a I'm an affectionate Hungary person. Any of the other person to, like, initiate that so that I can have that opening. You know what I mean? And until I'm able to, like, get it so as I stand today, that's the to.

 

Dr. Liz:
Is it like a nurturing touch that you like? Like do you like. Yeah. Okay.

 

Estelle:
Yeah, it's I'm being loved on. Absolutely. Yeah. Like I'm a big hugger. I'm a big rub. Your back. I'm a big wrap your face. You know, like just in the middle of the day, run up and just squeeze you in and continue. If I like the person you know that's going on with that person, you know, and even some of my friends, I'm like a big like, All right, okay. You know, I'm a get you in a him hug you and I'm going to tell you something that you need to do, but I'm going to have you. Well, I say, you know, like, you know, emotion. Hey, come here. This is some bullshit. You be okay, though, like you are. You are you are absolutely fucking up right now. But it'd be okay. I hate. Yeah, Like this is. I was thinking of you. Like you should have said that. Try this next up. yeah, that's okay. Okay. You know.

 

Dr. Liz:
What about couples?

 

Estelle:
What about.

 

Dr. Liz:
A couple? Once? So these are more like preferences. So whether it's like esthetics or jobs or things like that.

 

Estelle:
Yeah, I like a man that takes care of himself. I, I've tried. I've tried them. I've tried. I've tried people who were very casual about their health and I've tried. And then I found that again, it was based on who they thought I wanted versus who they actually were. And I was like, so you don't work out every day, you know? And my thing is and you have to work out every day, but be consistent with the thing that you said you do take care of your health, like because, you know, life plans. I like to plan life broad strokes because I know the details, you know, make you laugh, make God laugh. Right. So I like to push for the things that fall into my spirit. Well, still want kids, don't want adults, don't want to, you know, want to live a long, healthy life as much as I can. I can do the things I put parameters on. All right? Because I hate the work and the work control is, you know, we have them. So I just think to myself, health is one of those things. So I would I would want a man that is takes care of his health and that is that is a partner, you know, like a real my my friend, my partner Maya, we think where you fit in where I where I fall short you feel and you know and I'm the person is like I'll be vulnerable. I'm like, Yo, I can't do that. That's your world. I'm not doing that this week. I'll tell you like mine. I'll do it if I'm tired. I can't. I'm tired. I'm not going to do it. I'm doing it. That's all you this week. You got it. All right. So we'll just push it a week until I can do it. Then if you got, you know, a part like somebody, the.

 

Dr. Liz:
Balance.

 

Estelle:
And the balance and not being judged by not being able to show up is the thing that they think I am, you know? Right, Right. I'm very aware of that stuff.

 

Dr. Liz:
You do you like to date men in your industry or not?

 

Estelle:
At this point, they're all crazy. So no, no, they're not crazy. I mean, my my work, my, my with at this point, I don't mind. I know. I do know that another artist is off my list because I'm clear about myself. I know who I am and I know how I work as an artist, I don't want to look at that in the mirror every day. That's scary.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, sure. That's almost like two too close together. Like you need a little something about you out. Okay, well.

 

Estelle:
We like to see therapists talking to each of our two therapists, verifies each other. The hope like yes.

 

Dr. Liz:
No, I have dated a therapist, and yes, that's exactly what it's like. It's like.

 

Estelle:
You out thinking like.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yes, that's exactly it. And then not only not only like daring, vulnerable or, you know, empathetic times, things like that, but during conflict, like you're like psychological warfare and each other. And it's it's way too much.

 

Estelle:
So, you know.

 

Dr. Liz:
I will stick to people not in my field moving forward. What about a couple of boundaries you so deal breakers so you will not tolerate lies.

 

Estelle:
Say it again like lies. I'm very under that line. Okay. And that's in all the formats. Like I, I understand if you're working through something and you can't quite get to say it, don't say anything or be like, I'll come back to you with that. I'm not good at lies. And that's omission. That's hiding. There's all of that stuff too. I can't stand it, Don't like it. It's too many. It's too much in my family genealogy, too. And I, you know, I see it. I don't want to in this in this iteration moving forward. So good on life in old ways and also just mean people like people who who are who refuse to grow and and I say or give the phrasing to mean people who are stuck in a certain space and they just refuse to they refuse to be better that better at themselves. Right. Or they refuse to like they look down on my therapy or they look down on people with a worldwide view or a different viewpoints to that. And they go out of their way to say mean things to make themselves feel good. It's childish to me. And you would be. I'm sure you've seen this. People get into relationships and when you sit there and you're making jokes with each other and they say something and you're like, That's just horrible. Like, that's not even funny. Like, why would you? That's hard being like that. That's a that's a thought process. What went through your head of a human don't want no children what you were good at or by goodnight so you get red flag so now as I say mean people who just stuck in their way. I think there's somebody for everybody and I'm not the one for you if you're generally underneath it all mean and again that always comes from people who are kind of stuck or not trying to heal or not trying to figure themselves out.

 

Dr. Liz:
Right. And we know definitely that that's where that I mean, I think how you connected the to that often that fixed mindset and so doesn't do therapy isn't willing to grow and they're stuck in their ways and yeah that's a complete turnoff for me as well I love I love, you know, intellectual conversation. I love thinking and those deep type of conversations. And so someone who has a fixed mindset one way or the highway.

 

Estelle:
You know, it's a no.

 

Dr. Liz:
Go for me.

 

Estelle:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I look at it like, what's go left? We're all learning, right? We're all I my viewpoint is vastly changed in the past five years, like wildly different. Like I learn things about myself, my family, spiritually, physically, that I can. I can't have the same point of view about myself as I did five, six years ago. I just can't because now I know this that the rest any others? I well, the things I used to look at like crazy. Turns out my cousin's uncle. I'll go, my granddad, my mom's, my mom's mom. But like, you know, like my my cousin Lisa now. And so, well, you know, my dad and my family. True. And a lot of that. So I can't, you know, I, I reserve judgment, but there are a lot of people who sit in judgment and use it as a as a as a forcefield, some kind of like barrier to be able to grow. And and most of the times, the things they end up saying are very mean spirited or very, you know, like, well, this side looks like this. So that's why I it's just like, yeah, that's horrible.

 

Dr. Liz:
Very ego driven, very defense mechanisms, all of those things. Yes, I agree. And so this has been a pleasure where people.

 

Estelle:
Find.

 

Dr. Liz:
You, where tell us your Instagram handle or where else you are in social media.

 

Estelle:
I am on pretty much all the things at Estelle Darling's Facebook post fascist. They'll take up all I still darlings I yeah my radio show on Apple Music The Estelle Show we do I love the ones I look forward to having you on that because we have to we have to continue this conversation. Yeah, we do a level one thing when we play good music and we talk a little bit, but all the rest of the week, five days a week on Apple Music, we just play good music. I have a radio show. It's cool.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yes, I love it. And you put that do you put that on all your social media as I see that on Instagram and stuff that you all almost perfect. It can be found there. Well, thank you, Estelle. I really appreciate it. I am so grateful for our connection and for our joint passion for evolving and growing. And I'm really grateful for your time today. So thank you so much, you two.

 

Estelle:
Thank you and good to me.

 

Dr. Liz:
Thank you so much for hanging out with me today, Estelle, and for just being so real. And thank you all for hanging out our relatable relationships unfiltered. Make sure to subscribe to our YouTube channel sign up for my newsletter and find me on Instagram at Dr. Elizabeth Fedrick.