Relatable podcast 

Dr. Liz:
So much of the research is often about what happened to us. Those negative, those big things that happened to us as children, that abuse that was so over the good things that didn't happen to us are just as impactful. It's not always about the overt abuse. It is often about that emotional neglect. And so those moments of nurture that we needed and we didn't get those moments of us crying and being sent to our room instead of being consoled. Those compound and result in us realizing that no one's going to show up when we need us. So we've got to figure it out. And then we take that into adulthood. And as you were saying, with the codependency in adulthood, we then either start caretaking or we're taking care of ourselves.

 

Alana Carvalho:
You know, it's an interesting thing because I often teach other therapists and I find that most of us have codependency issues because that's why we go into the field, actually right.

 

Dr. Liz:
This is relatable relationships, unfiltered. Hey, welcome to Relatable Relationships unfiltered. Today, I'm hanging out with Elena Cavallo, therapist and author and like myself, a recovering codependent. We chat about where codependency comes from, how it might be showing up currently, and what to do about it. So codependency is something that a lot of us can relate to without even realizing. I remember the first time my therapist brought to my attention that I was potentially codependent and I was completely caught off guard by that, which I know is a common experience. But you do a lot of work in codependency. How did you get into doing that type of work?

 

Alana Carvalho:
Well, actually, similar to yourself was my therapist told me I was codependent and that kind of started my work. It happened that I was in the process of becoming a therapist myself at that time. And so once I started really understanding what that dynamic looked like in my own life, it was only natural that I began helping other people with it. But interestingly, I started my career off in substance abuse, where codependency is obviously a big piece of that. And, you know, it can kind of look obviously a very specific type of way. But codependency is just so much bigger than that. So after I got out of working specifically in substance abuse, I started helping people with all different types of codependency related issues.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, and that's such a good point because codependency is often seen as this. It's definitely stigmatized and it's looked at as only this certain population deals with codependency. And it's, you know, these extreme behaviors where in fact we all fall somewhere on the spectrum, I should say a large percentage of us fall somewhere on the spectrum of codependency. It just depends on how much it's showing up. But in the substance abuse world, because codependency often has so many enabling components to it, that's why it so commonly shows up there. But how do you see it show up, even with your clients, in ways that people might not even recognize as codependency?

 

Alana Carvalho:
Yeah, that's a great question. I think codependency is like actually a very difficult thing I think to understand in many ways, because it is so complex and kind of diverse in the way that it presents. Like the general idea is obviously that we're trying to change in some way somebody else's like behavior, thoughts, experience. But how that actually manifests is so unique to the person in some ways. Sometimes it has to do with like general people pleasing, right? Where like we have difficulty saying no. And part of the reason again comes back to this idea of like wanting to kind of control somebody else's experience. The reason we don't want to say no is because we don't want somebody to not like us or we don't want to make somebody feel bad. Right. So there's a lot of preoccupation with somebody else's experience of us, Right. And how they may feel about how we behave or think or what we do with our life. And sometimes it's about not being able to be okay with somebody else struggling with what's going on in their life. Right. So it kind of presents in both ways where it can be about caretaking other people, but it could also be about caretaking ourselves and fear of potentially letting other people down or people just not liking us is a big piece of it, too.

 

Dr. Liz:
Absolutely. And with humans being so deeply designed to crave acceptance and so deeply fear, rejection and abandonment and knowing that that really is rooted in us for survival. And when we think about taking it back to childhood, a lot of times these codependent behaviors come from the need to please a parent in order to stay safe or children who become parented fied. So they take on these adult roles as a child caring for their parents or their siblings emotional needs. And we know that that served a purpose for them in childhood. That's how they stayed safe. That's how they got acceptance, they got esteem. And so naturally we carry that with us because at one point it worked. And when you think about even when you reflect on, you know, your therapist bringing it to your attention and you reflect on some of those earlier life experiences for you, where do you see some of that codependency kind of starting to develop in your early childhood?

 

Alana Carvalho:
Yeah, So, you know, it's interesting. I think I was I was always kind of a more sensitive child. And I think some of us who kind of identify in that way, we lean towards being codependent because we can be very sensitive to the people around us, their feelings, their even just their energy. Right. And so when we're a child who feels that we can tend to take on a lot because we want to make sure the people around us are okay. And as you mentioned, like there's a survival piece of it, right, where doing that makes us feel safe. The problem is that, of course, as we grow into adulthood, it becomes like a dysfunctional pattern of hours that we no longer need to survive. But we feel like we do, right, Because it could feel like, my God, if I get rejected, you know, I'm I'm going to die. Right. And it's it's obviously not that extreme, but as a child, it actually feels that way. If we're rejected by our parents. And, you know, for those of us who grew up with, like if you grow up with an an emotionally immature parent, a lot of times those children take on the emotional needs of their parent and try to make them okay, try to make sure that, you know, there's there's no like upset in the household. There's no anger that's going on because when that happens, it can become so out of whack. And it's like as a child, you don't know what to do about that. And oftentimes you personalize it as well, like you feel like it's about you rather than seeing it as being about the adult that's around us. Right. So that's part of that, you know, is my experience. And then other parts of that, I think just lend to the situation that you came from. Like if you had a parent who had a substance abuse issue, like I mentioned before, like that easily when starts having codependency issues, you know, even if you had a parent who was sick. But a lot of times I think adults don't realize that they put a lot of their emotions onto the children around them because, you know, they might just be talking about what's going on, not realizing. And children are absorbing it. In regards to myself as a sensitive child, it's like, I'm just going to take that right in and feel like, my God, I've got to do something about that. Right? So we have to be so mindful about, you know, as parents particularly, or people who are around children about how we speak about emotions and how we speak about our own experiences, making sure that they don't feel like it's theirs to to be burdened with.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah. And as you're talking about being a sensitive child, I find that interesting. So for adults or even children who are that label as given up highly sensitive and I believe that those are actually intertwined. And so from my personal experience and then my experience with clients that I believe that children actually become more sensitive for the same reasons they become codependent. And so that sensitivity, that hyper vigilance to our environments, that was also part of our survival. And so if we could sense, especially if we had parents who maybe we were on eggshells around or who were very inconsistent in their temperament, I know for me personally that was a big part. I didn't ever know what to expect day to day. I didn't know what to expect. Evening to evening. And so I am able to reflect back and see that I am now very sensitive to even the micro-expressions of people around me, which, by the way, makes me really good at my career as a therapist because we're very attuned. But at the same time, as a young child, I just reflect back on all of the anxiety that came along with that, just that feeling of dread in my body all of the time, because I was just so aware of those mood shifts and so aware of if that facial expression turns even slightly gray. You know what that means. And that's really scary. And not always that it's directed at me, but even if it's I know what that means and now my parents are fighting and that's really scary. But I do believe that that the highly sensitive qualities and the codependency are deeply intertwined.

 

Alana Carvalho:
Absolutely. And you also use the word attunement. And I've been speaking about that recently, how I think when we have parents that don't attuned to us as children. Right. They're not and and people might be saying like, well, what does that actually mean? What that means is like when a parent isn't taking time to to feel into what's going on for the child to notice how they're feeling or notice how they're speaking about something or just like kind of tap into their world in some way. Miss Attunement is a big piece in this, too, because that can lead to issues related to complex trauma, which in many ways is highly tied to codependency, which is when we talk about like the little traumas that I'm sure you know, you come across that all the time, obviously in your work where they can be so impactful time and time again. You know, if we're regularly being mis attuned to from our parents and it sounds like that might have been your experience in some ways.

 

Dr. Liz:
Well, absolutely. And that is so much of the research and I'm sure you're familiar with running on Empty the I think it's Janice Webb, Janice Webber, something like that. Johnny Webb, maybe. I don't know. Anyway, something you write Google all of those different options and come up with something. But she talks a lot in that book about how so much of the research is often about what happened to us. Those negative, those big things that happen to us as children, that abuse that was so overt. And we we often focus on that being the main cause for our issues in adulthood in terms of disregulation or relational difficulties, but that it's also a lot. well, this is telling me Joni's Webb, thank you for joining us. We're running on empty. I appreciate it, Melissa, but that the what didn't happen to us. So the good things that didn't happen to us are just as impactful and just as detrimental to our ability to show up adaptive as adults for our ability to be regulated and safe and in healthy relationships. And so I guess just to summarize that, it's not always about the overt abuse. It is often about that emotional neglect. And so those moments of nurture that we needed and we didn't get those moments of us crying and being sent to our room instead of being consoled. Those compound end result in us realizing that no one's going to show up when we need us. So we've got to figure it out. And then we take that into adulthood and as you were saying, with the codependency in adulthood, we then either start caretaking or we're taking care of ourselves.

 

Alana Carvalho:
Yeah. I mean, you know, it's an interesting thing because I think as codependence, we tend to feel more attuned to and then we try so hard at tuning to other people that we're constantly trying to figure out, like, what are their needs? How can I help them? How can I be there for them? And, you know, it's an interesting thing because I often teach other therapists and I find that most of us have codependency issues because that's why we go into the field, actually. Right. But the good part about that is that obviously we're trying to help people, but the negative piece can be if we don't work on healing our own, our own pain, our own trauma, whatever it may be, that we then try to continue to save other people in the same way that we actually want to be saved ourself. Right. And so, you know, I hear time and time again from all of my codependency, I'm sure I had said this many a time, but you know, how caring we are for other people and not getting that same care in return. Right. Like we're constantly trying to figure out how can I make other people feel good or happy or not upset? And then yet we're not necessarily feeling like we're getting that in return, which, you know, is really obviously our work to be done because it's a recreation of all of our childhood stuff right there. Right. It's a pattern that we keep enacting with other people. And so, you know, as codependence, obviously there's a lot of different work to do, but some of which is learning how to attuned to ourselves rather than continuing to try to a tune to other people, you know, because it's not about the other person, even though we think it is, it's really about like getting our own needs met.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah. And I know for myself it's even trying to be aware of when it comes to other people. We tend to like ask what's wrong a lot? Or tend to ask, Is everything okay? Or that anxious side of us starts to come out. And I know, I mean, I see that I do that with people who are close to me. I do that with my son and my son and I had to come to an agreement a couple of years ago where he said he's very emotionally intelligent. But he said to me, Mom, if you ask me if something's wrong and I say no, then please trust me. Nothing's wrong. Okay? Maybe you're the therapist in the valley, right?

 

Alana Carvalho:
But you know, you know what's funny about that? And, you know, of course, I laugh because as a therapist, like, you know, it's funny how our kids pick up on all of this stuff, Right? Right. But I'm, you know, I imagine for you and correct me if I'm wrong, that that may have something to do with the child in you who feels like, is everything okay really like speaking to the parent? Right. It's like that wounded inner child who's going like, are you okay? Is everything okay? Is something wrong? Right. And then you start reenacting it and these other dynamics in your life, Right? And the person's like, I'm actually okay. Right? So it's like it's not actually going on there, but it feels for us like it's happening again. But it's really just an internal experience.

 

Dr. Liz:
Absolutely. And because we are so hyper vigilant to those micro-expressions and to those tones and that just any small hints that maybe there's a threat on the horizon or and that threat could be just somebody upset with us. And I don't like when my son's upset with me. And so, you know, that is like I don't like when anyone's upset with me. And so I know for me that I there's a lot of overcorrect that goes on, of a lot of excessive apologizing and a lot of excessive checking in. And I agree with him that I believe it's twofold. And I think that's something that's really important for codependent parents to be aware of, because I do agree, on one hand, it is exactly what you're describing. It's that checking in and my inner child being like, are you mad at me? Are you mad at me? I do something wrong. But then it's this other side of me that often overcorrect and swings that other side of the spectrum with with my son of being hyper attentive at times because of what I was not provided. Right. And I have it since he was in utero. It's it's always been like I will never parent the way my parents parented and I will always be a safe space for him. And so I catch myself in some of those moments that it's like, I want to make sure he's okay, I want to make sure he's okay. But I mean, again, it's so just mature. I'm so proud of him that he's able to articulate that. That actually doesn't help him to feel okay. That actually is more stressful for him, which as it is for our partners and the other people in our lives.

 

Alana Carvalho:
Yeah, absolutely. And you know, the interesting part about that and I talk about this in my book on codependent parenting, it's it's like we tend to go to the opposite extreme of whatever we had, right? Because because we're often doing it in reaction like, as you said and I've said the same thing. It's not like, you know, I just want to be so different in these ways and then we are so different. But the result isn't necessarily actually what we probably actually want it to be, right? Like, what we really want is for him to feel safe enough to speak, right, for him to know that you're there for him, that you care. And I think and it sounds like he knows all that stuff. So he's like, Mom, back off, you know, like, I already know that. That you feel that way and that you care and you're a safe space. You don't have to worry about that. And I love that. Like when I'm working with parents, you know, with kids because our kids are so intelligent, There's they have they know so much like sometimes we don't trust that they will share with us whatever it is that they need. And I think if we're doing the work to create a safe enough speed, it's not going to happen ever 100% of the time. But, you know, you you'll know it's something's off. And then and hopefully at some point they would feel safe enough to say something about it, you know. But I think it's lovely that like you check in and that, you know, you care. I think that's the funny part about codependency is that it comes from such a caring place, but it can feel really smothering to other people or it can feel like too much. Right? And the flipside is we don't want our kids to feel like they then need to take care of us because we have so much anxiety about what's going on with them.Right. And that can easily happen, which then creates a future generation of codependence.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yes, absolutely. And it just even on that note, talking about that, how how do you see codependent come up in codependency come up in romantic relationship. So even what we're describing with parenting and then thinking about. So I think what it's often missed for a lot of the codependence that I work with and something that I even had to check in on myself is that often our codependent behavior is actually really controlling. And so and because we're trying to stay safe, we again adapt these adaptive traits. But I see that it comes up of people maybe monitoring their partner or wanting to be with their partner all the time, or telling their partner what to do. And for them, it's coming from a place of they care and they're trying to protect their partner. Right? But at the end of the day, it's pretty controlling. How do you see that come up with your clients?

 

Alana Carvalho:
Yeah, I mean, God, I see that come up in so many different ways. I mean, you know, I think you're absolutely right in that codependency in and of itself is controlling. Right. And so I often will say like and I'm happy to admit I'm a control freak. I mean, it's it's just the reality, right? And it's hard for us to give up control. Right? But to me, such an important piece of like my healing journey has been learning how to trust. Right. And that to me is like the opposite of trying to control, right? Is like when we can be in trust, we can let go of control. And I mean that both in relationship. I mean that like in relation to a higher power, I think that that's like hugely important. But yeah, I see this all the time. I mean, I see. And not to bring it back to parenting, I'll bring it to the other relationship, but I'm just thinking about like parents and, and I imagine this happens in romantic relationships all the time too. But like, you got the tracker on your phone and you're like, watching where like your kid or your partner is and like, you know, and people get like, what do you mean? And I can't do that. And I'm like, How are you ever going to trust that people are where they say they are or they're they're doing what they say they're doing. If you're just going on your phone and checking where they are, you know, and I understand, obviously there's safety things with children. I'm not saying, you know, you can never have it, but codependency is like a false sense of safety. Right. We think that we have control by doing things like that. Like when we look at the phone and we see where the person is for a moment, we go, but we don't really know what's going on. People could be doing whatever, you know, so many different things, right? But it gives us this idea that we have the ability to control things, right? So like, you know, I see this come up often where and I guess I'm bringing it back to substance abuse again. But I'll do that because, you know, there's often a couple where perhaps one of the one of the partners has a drinking issue, maybe it's not full blown alcohol's and maybe it is, but then they start kind of monitoring how many drinks is the other person happening, Right. you know, you can only have two drinks tonight. Or remember, we agreed it's just, you know, whatever. And they make up these rules because they start trying to police the other person's behavior. And this happens with alcohol, it happens with drugs, It happens with all sorts of things. Right. And so we think that we're like helping them by controlling the behavior when really the other person has work that they need to do on this issue that is not about us. And what we're what we're deciding is right for them. Right. They really need a professional that's going to help them through their substance abuse issue, and the professional would help them figure out how to navigate all of that. Right. But oftentimes, like we think we know what's right for everybody, Right? Like we've decided and we all think this like we all think we are right about everything, right? But we've decided what is right for them and then we're going to control them and implement it in a particular way. And then there's a lot of discord that happens because, of course, that's not going to build trust between people, Right? People start sneaking around, they start lying or, yeah, I had two drinks, but they really had three drinks or whatever it is, right? We don't want to create that type of atmosphere in our relationship. You know, we want to be able to be honest with one another and then let the chips fall as they may. Right. If you're you can certainly put up boundaries, but it's not going to happen by controlling or policing another person.

 

Dr. Liz:
Absolutely. And that that control, as you're saying, is false because they're they're going to end up doing what they want to do anyway. And it also often leads to high levels of criticism and nagging. And so now we create this parental relationship where there is an authority figure in your dynamic, which ultimately never works out, and that gives the person who is making these choices almost an out in a in some ways that they feel you're taking responsibility. They're happy to give you responsibility, like, you're nagging me, you know, Then they make, Well, you didn't say anything, so I just had another one. And it becomes this really warped dynamic that is no longer about two adults being responsible for themselves, but their you know what codependency is this enmeshment that takes place where now all of a sudden you have the same rules and the same values and the same opinions. And that ultimately never works, because that's, as you're saying, it's a false sense. Like that's not actually what's going on. But in order to try to keep the peace, which is where then we see some of these perfectionism behaviors come in, some of the people pleasing behaviors. And let's talk about how those come up. So, you know, so we see the control. And I just want to put a quick disclaimer, which I already did say. But when when a codependent is trying to control a situation, it's not often because they're trying to be controlling. That is often not their motivation. It is because they're afraid and they they're afraid for you. They're afraid for them. They're afraid for the children. And so they're just really trying to find safety. And so if you're listening to this and you're like can relate to some of those controlling behaviors, I just know, like, I see you, I see where it's coming from and it's not serving you. So if we just put that out there, how about with perfectionism, though, and people pleasing? How do you see those traits come in to romantic relationships?

 

Alana Carvalho:
You know, it's interesting. Sometimes I like to refer to I like to say that perfection is and can be a form of or codependency can be a form of relational perfectionism where we're trying to do it right all the time, you know, and do it to the best of our abilities or beyond, maybe the best of our abilities. But I think in terms of people pleasing like again, it comes back to that thing around safety in relationship where like we want other people to be happy with us. We want them to feel like, yeah, like we, they really like us. They care for us, they love us. And so often times we will do that at the expense of ourselves, right? Like we would we would rather in a sense feel like somebody is happy with us. Then we feel good about something because that gives us a sense of, you know, maybe completeness, comfortability, safety, whatever it may be. Right. The problem is, as they said, oftentimes we'll do it at the expense of ourselves. And what ends up happening then is that we actually end up building resentment in relationships. Right. You know, that's what people often don't realize is is kind of underneath a lot of this stuff, Right. When we're doing things to make other people feel good. But it's not making us feel good, Right. Which again, there's nothing wrong with like supporting people, helping people, you know, doing things like that. It's when we're doing it to such an extreme that we are giving up something within ourselves or for ourselves, Right? And when that happens, what we don't realize is often is that we're building relationships that have resentment in them and actually are like slowly chipping away at the health of the relationship. Right. And so, like, my belief is the more that we can actually be ourselves and be honest and be true and potentially let other people down and be disappointed in us at times, that's actually part of a true intimate relationship, right? You can't have true intimacy without having like these difficult moments and being yourself and sharing what's true for you. Right? But as people pleasers and as perfectionists, we can often just like kind of put on the facade and pretend like everything's okay all the time and nothing's wrong or I just really want to be there for you or what would you like, you know, instead of saying, This is what I would like, does that work for you? Which again to me feels like even more loving in a sense, because we're sharing about part of ourselves and we're also asking what the other person may want or need. And that is something that I don't think we're kind of taught how to do often. So, you know, we become adults where we don't necessarily have the language to communicate that well with other people. So I said a whole lot. There was I don't know if.

 

Dr. Liz:
I'm totally following and I completely agree. I think a lot of that comes from because I'm just even it's resonating with me as you're talking about struggling to say no to people and struggling to not be like, Well, what do you want? I'm fine doing whatever you want. Because even when thinking back again to upbringing and thinking about some of the shame messages that come along with that and so even something so simple that we teach kids about, like sharing, right? That is a great thing to teach a child. And we need a teacher child boundaries. So if a child is playing with a toy and maybe is only had it for a couple of minutes and this other kid comes over and wants to take it away, the societal message is often, well, yeah, you should share, so give them your toy. Right? That is teaching that child that their needs don't matter versus how about you play with that for ten or 15 minutes or whatever the case? And so there's this collaboration that goes on. And so when we're thinking about the shame messages from childhood, and especially for those of us who are raised in very religious upbringing, that adds this whole other element of shame to it. And so I know that I catch myself in adulthood thinking, Well, I can just suck it up. Like it's not like I'll be fine if it makes them happy, then that's the right thing to do, right? That's the messaging that comes along with it. That's the right thing to do. But it is so often at the cost of our well-being.

 

Alana Carvalho:
Absolutely. And you know, the interesting thing about that, and I imagine many people can relate to this if their parent is as the parent in that scenario. I also find that our codependency issues come up with the other kid or the other parent, right? So like the kid comes over, he wants to play with the toy and our kids playing with it, and we're like, God, like I look bad if I don't tell my kid to give the toy to the other person, right? So it's like, not only are we sending that message to our child, but we're also like in our own codependency around it, because how bad does it look if I say no, actually, Jonny's playing with it for a few minutes. You'll just have to wait, Right? And the other person goes, You know, I can't believe you said something like that. Right? And this is another place where we may struggle in letting people like say, I don't like that. Or I think that's rude. You know, even if we're not obviously being rude in the way that we say it. But it may be perceived that way. Right. And so I think I feel like there's these constant examples and experiences in life that come up where it's like, which way are we going to choose? AM I going to choose my child and their well-being in that moment, or am I going to choose how we appear to other people? And, you know, of course, people would say, well, I would always choose our well-being. It's not that easy, you know, Like, it's really not you know, I imagine that people could think about how this happens on a daily basis with themselves, like how we make choices both for ourselves and our children, because we don't want to look bad, right? It's like and sometimes, you know, as a parent who works on codependency all the time, like, wow, do I have to think about that a lot? Because I go, Am I doing this right now because I don't want to look a certain way? Or is that actually how I feel about it? You know, and that's a common question that that codependent to are trying to work on themselves have to answer to.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah. And the codependency really is very image driven. And that's a good point. And not just esthetically image driven, but as you're saying, it's how we appear to society, how do we appear to others. So even that over apologizing aspect. So as you're talking about this, how this comes up day to day and I'm just even reflecting on just yesterday, like somebody literally walked in to me and I apologized. Right. Like, you know, having that awareness of how often we just don't we don't want someone to be mad at me. So you almost ran me over. But I'm sorry for you doing that. Like, it's so silly, but it's so ingrained in us. And so even as you're giving that example of being the parent in that situation and it not being so cut and dry and it's absolutely not because it's second nature to us, it is muscle memory. When you think about learning to play a sport or an instrument, and when you go to do it, you just do it. And that's the same thing with these codependent tendencies. If you don't really increase awareness and and even clearly when you do, because you and I are our experts in the field and we still run into this on a daily basis. And so having the awareness, knowing where it came from. But then let's talk about what we can do about it. So you post on your social media quite a bit about this and you have a post on your Instagram about ways to basically overcome or heal from codependency. What are a few of our let's just let's talk through a couple. Maybe we'll do one at a time, kind of jump back and forth. What's the first one that comes to mind?

 

Alana Carvalho:
The first one that comes to mind is exactly what we just talked about, which is like awareness, right? So kind of looking at your everyday interactions and seeing where something doesn't feel right or, you know, and it happens kind of it can happen in like the, you know, twinge of a second where you find yourself saying yes and then something like doesn't feel right in your body and you're like, you know what? I actually think I meant No. Or maybe I'm not sure, but I said yes and I didn't. I'm not even sure how I feel about it. Just starting to realize and become aware of those things to me is like step one, right? So almost just observing yourself in your every day and noticing where these things are happening, where you're saying or you're doing something that doesn't feel right for you or you recognize like, for example, with your sandwich is such a great example. When somebody is kind of saying no to you or telling you how they feel and for whatever reason you're not taking it as as fact, as truth, and you continue to push on something like any of those experiences, you generally tend to feel them in some way in your body or something feels off about it, just noticing those to begin with. Yeah.

 

Dr. Liz:
I completely agree. And that is the three ws something I talk about a lot. What's going on it coming from and what do I need? And I think that's really applicable here. So the what's going on, recognizing it in your body and then the where is it coming from So you can check in on what I just said yes to something I wanted to say no to and then the what do I need? And sometimes the what do I need is going to be the cringe iest of them all do have to go back to that person and say, yeah, actually what I really should have said was and that feels, my gosh, nearly impossible.

 

Alana Carvalho:
And, and honestly not seeking a different direction. But I love when we do that. I think it's so great when we come back and say, you know, I said this, but I actually meant this. And people, you know, they think like when when an experience of some kind is over, that's it. And I'm like, no, like we can go back to them at any time and you should go back to them. You should go back to them with your kids. You should go back to them with your partners. Anyone in your life where you go, I said this thing and that's actually not sitting right with me. And you just take responsibility for it. Right. Which is also one of the key steps. And in the recovery process, which is taking responsibility for where you've gone wrong in in a dynamic like, you know, I don't know why I said that or, you know, I said yes, I actually meant no, I'm sorry that I did that right. We can take responsibility. We again, we don't have to be overly apologetic, but we should identify where it is that it's our stuff that's coming up and how we're negatively impacting a dynamic.

 

Dr. Liz:
And that can be I know that's something I've been working on over this last couple of years, is allowing myself to change my mind. Yes, be really hard because I don't want to disappoint people. But as you're saying, I will catch myself agreeing to something or doing something that is going to make somebody else happy or meet their needs. And then I realize that is not what's best for me. That's not good for me at all. And so starting to practice that, no matter how many times you do it, it is really hard and hopefully over time it will get easier. But also hopefully over time I'll just start saying no so that would often be good.

 

Alana Carvalho:
But that's new. But I will say like, you know, and I was saying this to somebody else the other day, you should always have phrases ready to not answer a question because as codependent, we always answer something right away. And I'm like, Don't answer it. You should have these phrases where you come out and you say something like, You know what? Let me think about that and I'll get back to like something as simple as that gives us space because codependency is again, it's such a bodily thing that it's like we have this knee jerk to say whatever is going to make something good in the moment, but it's not actually the right thing to say. So if we give ourselves some space, oftentimes we can then take a pause, connect with ourselves, and then come back to it and and have an idea of what we actually want to say or find the words that we need to say it in a way that isn't hurtful or feel that feels appropriate enough in whatever way it may be.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, and an a great approach to use when you take that space is even to ask yourself if I say yes to this, is it going to create resentment? And that's something that that I practice that I suggest for my clients that that often even when we talk about boundary setting. So when people ask, how do I know when a boundary is necessary? And as you're suggesting, checking in with your body, is it creating discomfort? Is it creating anxiety, dread, and then is it going to lead to resentment? So is it just something maybe I don't want to do, like no, I don't want to carpool today or I don't want to bake those cookies. Okay. I could probably not always. You're more than welcome to say no, but in some of those situations, we might be able to get over it. But if it's something where I'm like, No, because this is actually the 10th time I've taken over carpool this month, or, you know that whatever the case, that is going to lead to resentment. And so a healthy boundary is firm but flexible. And so we are aware of what feels safe to us. And at times we are willing to maybe give and take. But if it's going to create these resentments toward somebody, that's probably a good sign that we should be saying, no.

 

Alana Carvalho:
Absolutely, I couldn't agree more. I mean, and that's what that brings back to that other statement that resentment kills relationships, right? So if you think you're doing something nice, you're not doing anybody a favor by building resentment in a relationship. Right. You know, and oftentimes the other person has no clue what's going on. Right. Like, that's a funny thing, too, where we make a story that they know how we're feeling and all of these things that we've never voiced to the other person. Right. And that's an important piece because, you know, if we're smiling and we're saying, yes and we're doing all of these things, we shouldn't expect that the other person has any idea that it's not okay, that they asked for us to carpool for the 10th time. You know, like in their mind, they're like, you know, Liz loves doing that. So it's a perfectly fine. Right. And that's why I like for me, you know, honest communication has been such a big piece of the work and is something that I really like harp on with my clients as well, because without that, we can't have honest relationships, right? Because people know how we're feeling and what's going on for us, unless we share it with them.

 

Dr. Liz:
What are some suggestions you have for sharing that? I heard somebody say recently there's there's so much content out there about communicate, communicate, have the conversation. And they were saying in this but what is but how like I give the idea is to communicate but what does that even mean? So what are those steps.

 

Alana Carvalho:
Yeah, a wonderful tool that I actually have this in my codependency workbook is a three step, and a three step is we acknowledge the other person positively in some way. We state what the issue is and then we share what our need or a boundary is. And that to me is like a simple formula for communicating it. And I give some examples in the workbook because we can say to someone like, you know, I really appreciate that you trust me with your child. And and, you know, we've we've done some really helpful stuff for one another. And I appreciate you for that. The problem is that I noticed when I'm picking up the kids, I'm late for the activity that I'm doing after. And so I'm going to have to cut back on carpooling, right? Like simple, clear. We we state what the issue is and then we stay with the need is right. So I will need to cut back on it and unfortunately I won't be able to pick up your child, you know, more than twice a week period. Like that's it, you know, And so simple, clear, honest.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yes, that's them. That's a great suggestion. Something as codependent love to do as overexplain and you shouldn't turn towards so we will we love to just talk in circles to explain and explain it. I catch phrase self always saying, Does that make sense? Do you get it? Yes.

 

Alana Carvalho:
You know, and it's true. It's like I often will say to my my codependent client, if you had cut that halfway through, it would have been the perfect thing to say. But, you know, you just took it too far, which is okay. And again, it's it's that people pleasing, not wanting to disappoint, wanting everyone to like us. I get it. But the problem is, is it makes us sound insecure and not confident in what we're saying. And then the other person takes that as like, what is that about like, why is that person not just like stating it confidently, right? And then they, they can poke holes in our story too. So like, there's a lot that happens when we share much information and do too much apologizing and all of that kind of stuff.

 

Dr. Liz:
It's so true. I always say that the more you talk, the more ammo you're giving away and try to rein it back in. This is such a helpful conversation. I really appreciate you being here and giving us these insights. Where can people find you on social media and your website and also the name of your books that you mentioned?

 

Alana Carvalho:
Sure, yeah. So most of my stuff is the codependent perfectionist. That's who I am on Instagram. It's my website, the Codependent Perfectionist dot com. My book is called Raising Empowered Children The Codependent Perfectionist Guide to Parenting. For those of you who aren't parents, it's still relatable because it can kind of get you in touch with your own experience. Growing up, I also had some Oracle cards, which I love. They're one of my favorite things which are meant to help with relationships, get some guidance and feedback. They're great for journaling, and as I mentioned, I also have a workbook that's on my website, so you can check it all out.

 

Dr. Liz:
They're very cool. Well, thank you so much. Again, this truly was so insightful. I really appreciate you being here.

 

Alana Carvalho:
Thank you. It was wonderful as I appreciate it.

 

Dr. Liz:
I'll just keep this short and sweet and not over explain. Thanks a lot to and thank you all for hanging out on relatable relationships unfiltered. Make sure to subscribe to our YouTube channel, Sign up for my newsletter and find me on Instagram at Dr. Elizabeth Fedrick.