Relatable podcast 

Dr. Liz:

Dr. Liz:
This is relatable relationships, unfiltered. Hey, welcome to Relatable Relationships Unfiltered. Today I'm hanging out with Carlo Romo, dating and relationship coach. We chat all about social media favorite phrases, including toxic cycles and narcissism. And we get real about our own experiences with codependency. So the Internet's favorite phrase of all time toxic cycle or I guess toxic relationships, anything really toxic in it is like all the rage these days.

 

Carla Romo:
And I feel like it's like hashtag like for a marketing standpoint, it's like hashtag toxic relationship. And it's got like, I don't know if you go to Tik Tok and put that in there, it's it's got like millions of of hashtags already for it. Everybody talks about the toxic relationships.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yes I sure as shit hashtag my stuff with toxic relationships because I'm searching for it. Yeah that's for sure.

 

Carla Romo:
I sure as shit do that to SEO all that good stuff. Yeah, exactly.

 

Dr. Liz:
So tell us from like your perspective in the work that you do, how would you define a toxic relationship and what kind of use toxic relationship and toxic cycle synonymously as we talk about this. But how do you define that for your clients?

 

Carla Romo:
Well, the way that I really look at a toxic relationship is are both people able to, you know, okay, well, I was going to just start defining a healthy relationship and how that kind of combats the toxic. But if we're going to look at toxic relationship, you're in a place of low self esteem, okay? Like you have you there's usually a root of low self esteem in that there's a pattern of unhealthy behaviors that's usually wrapped into some kind of cycle. It's pretty predictable, which is kind of interesting because it's like if you're in an actual toxic relationship and you're like, What the hell is going on? Like, why do we keep getting in this? You know, it's like four months later we're like back at it again arguing, and then we're breaking up. Then we're getting back together. This time it's going to be different. I can tell you right now, toxic relationships are pretty predictable. That probably isn't going to be different. It's going to keep happening. It's going to keep going on and on and on. But I would say it's rooted in a low self-esteem. And this doesn't mean that you have low self-esteem going into this toxic relationship. You can work with somebody who's an abuser. Right.

 

Dr. Liz:
And yes, I think, though, often when you're attracted to that type of personality and when you look past some of those red flags, though, I like to be very clear that we don't look past red flags because we are stupid or we like to be hurt or we're like asking for it, so to speak.

 

Carla Romo:
Right?

 

Dr. Liz:
We often either don't pick up on them or we ignore them. We look past them because it's so familiar. It's it's our programing, it's what we're used to. And so we though you're right, I believe in saying that we don't always have like the lowest of self esteem going into it. There's generally something underlying. There is some unresolved trauma, unresolved negative core beliefs. Yes, I believe they just from all too well personal experience just get fucking blasted when you're that dynamic.

 

Carla Romo:
Absolutely. And I would I would agree with that as well. There's something underlying there that is probably going on. Sherri, my co-host, we host the Love Fix podcast and we talk a lot about our own stories of she talks about her love addiction. I talk about my codependency. And I can tell you right now, you know, I used to be really good at painting those red flags green because my self-worth was rooted in, I need you to love me. So then that makes me love a ball. And that was the underlying thing. So back to what you said. It's like, yeah, it's like you're painting red flags green, you're ignoring red flags. It's not like you're dumb or like, shame on you. This is probably something that you're doing to try to protect yourself around the red flags.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, I mean, because it is natural. Humans, they want to be loved, accepted, esteemed, all of those things. And so when we have these individuals who maybe are demons creating some toxic behaviors, but then also people aren't all good and all bad. So that means that for all of their bad traits, they often do have good traits as well. And that's how we get sucked in. That's how we become interested in them. Examining a big portion of the toxic cycle is the we see often it's the codependent narcissistic dance. And so I want to talk a little bit about that. That was my really my specialty, what I really dug into years ago when I first started specializing in relationships. And so I want to hear from your perspective, starting like let's talk through the codependency piece. How do you define codependency? Because there are so many societal misconceptions around codependency.

 

Carla Romo:
Somebody just asked me the other day, they were like, But is it a little codependency in a relationship? Like a good thing? Like, don't you want to have codependency? And I was like, You're thinking about being dependent. I said, If a relationship has codependency, how now like GTFO, like that is not a healthy thing, right? Or if you don't want to GTFO of the relationship, both people really need to make an effort and have to be willing and people can. There's a lot of people who maybe somebody gets sober, the other person who's who is codependent on the addict, you know, isn't in any type of recovery. Then they get recovery and then together people can heal and work in relationship with both. People have to be really present for that. And the interesting thing is, too, is that there's so many definitions for codependency. The easiest way that I like to look at it is losing a sense of self to another person. And whether that be their addiction, their narcissism, their mental health issues, like whatever it might be, that's kind of what they lose themselves to. So I would say you do not want any any type of codependency in a relationship at all, right?

 

Dr. Liz:
You don't want to be losing yourself. And really the term that inner dependency is what we want, which ties into what you're saying. Yes, of course, there's going to be an element of dependency, but not codependency. And on the flip side of that, and I, I absolutely agree, it is about losing yourself. And I talk a lot about how codependency, when the societal misconception of it is that a codependent is somebody who is weak and they're needy and they can't take care of themselves and and there's just so much stigma around it from that perspective. And the wild part is that a codependent is actually the caretaker. They are the bad ass, they are the fixer, they are the solver. And so that is the first and foremost misconception that I like to clear up, that if you're codependent, I'm not giving you accolades for being a bad ass. But what I am saying is that it's not that you're weak or needy. You're very likely the one that's doing the caretaking and the problem solving.

 

Carla Romo:
Absolutely. And I think that's a really important thing to distinguish here, right? Because there's a lot of shame around codependency and realizing, gosh, like like I was with this person for years and begging for them to love me and they never were able to get there. And, you know, then it left me feeling shattered and broken and like, what's wrong with me that I'm so messed up? Right? It's it's such an internal dialog and it's it's rooted in low self esteem. I mean, that is the that's codependency, right? Like, I'm not worthy, I'm not lovable. I'm not enough. And so I feel like being able to just own it and be like, yes, I am codependent and there are some really positive things about being codependent that helped me survive this relationship or my childhood or whatever it was. But then there's a flip side that gets me into pretty messed up relationships that I maybe, you know, are toxic and hurtful toward me and aren't good for me.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, And that's so well said, because our adaptive child traits is where the codependency comes from. So we had to learn how to survive our environment. For those of us who turned into perfectionists and people pleasers and caretakers and all of those things, those were our adaptive child traits. That's how we stayed safe. And I have a book coming out in a few weeks, and I love how you use that term of or I guess the question of the what's wrong with me? I reference that throughout pretty much the duration of my book, that that's always been the question that's come up for me since my childhood of like, what is wrong with me that I have anxiety and depression and my friends are just being carefree and being kids, you know, And what is wrong with me that in high school even I remember I couldn't maintain or like I didn't want to maintain a relationship. I guess I could say I had commitment issues as a teenager. So that's pretty telling what was going on. And so that has been really the theme that has been woven throughout my life of the what's wrong with me. And I love how you're bringing awareness to that, that it's not that there's something wrong with you. You learned these traits to stay safe. And unfortunately, what was adaptive is now become maladaptive, right?

 

Carla Romo:
And then there's a certain responsibility as an adult to say, okay, I couldn't help what happened to me as a child if there was, you know, addiction going on in your family or just family dysfunction of any sort, whatever it might have been. But as an adult, you have choices and that's where you can break the cycle. And that's the empowering part of Breaking Free from Codependency that I think is just really underrated because it's when it clicks and you're like, man, like, this is what was going on with me. I have choices. I don't have to default to that. It can feel very empowering.

 

Dr. Liz:
Right? And that is exactly it. That awareness is always the first step and being aware of also, when we talk about the codependent narcissistic dance that goes on. So you gave a good definition of the codependency and narcissism. I like to be really clear that just because somebody has narcissistic tendencies does not make them pathological. It's not diagnosable. They just have tendencies, which, by the way, we all have narcissistic tendencies somewhere along the spectrum. But it's just how much of the tendencies of somebody has. And also really the concerning part is when they lack self-awareness around them. And so this is often maybe they're they have a really hard time taking feedback, really self-absorbed. They're not asking you questions back. Everything is about them. There's also tends to be a lot of manipulation, gaslighting, and these manipulative behaviors are done in a way to also receive your esteem, your attention. And I think that's one of the most important things to keep in mind, because often codependency gets looked at as like, the poor codependent. And then like the evil narcissist and the person with the narcissistic tendencies is having just as much experience with their trauma triggers. There's just as much going on for them. It's just manifesting in a different way.

 

Carla Romo:
I think that's so well said because it's really easy to be like, the narcissist is evil. Sure, they do some pretty messed up things sometimes, right? Sure. Like you could probably like anybody. Let's see, he's like, yeah, I got a list like, boom, boom, boom, boom. But I also think when you are in a place of recovery around codependency, okay, so you have this awareness, whether you're in the 12 step program or you're working with a coach or a therapist around, you know, breaking out of these codependency, you know, traits and whatever, that you can kind of look at the narcissist, take a step back and be like, ooh, this person like maybe actually isn't well and kind of almost see that like having compassion. Compassion does not mean it's okay what they did to me or it's okay what they're doing. Like, no, you never have to be okay with somebody's unacceptable behavior. Right. But you can kind of maybe get some perspective and take it out of that enmeshment that codependency like thrive off of and kind of there's like a separation of like, okay, wait a minute. Maybe they aren't actually just doing this to me. It's like not a personal hit about me or my self esteem or ego, but maybe they've got something that's going on that's way above me that doesn't really have to do with me.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, that's a powerful moment when you can first recognize that empathy is not enabling and vice versa. And so you can figure out how you can hold space for that partner's experiences without enabling their behaviors, but then also being able to have that awareness surround the what is my role in this? And so what? What am I how am I contributing to this toxic dynamic? Because again, it's not always the narcissist or the person with narcissistic tendencies, which I won't say that every time that's a mouthful, but it's not always the narcissist fault, right? Like it's it's easy to point fingers that way. But how many times do you keep going back to the same situation that you that you know better? How many times do you say, why do they keep doing this to me instead of why am I allowing this? And so when you can recognize your role in it and you can have awareness around and really just take, you know, like be aware of what's within my circle of control, what can I do about this? Now you're taking your power back and you're no longer the victim, and you get to make responsible decisions.

 

Carla Romo:
Yeah. You know, I'm curious about what you think. Like, there's a fine line between, like, victim blaming, right? And I feel like this comes up a lot in, like, the relationship world that we're in, But where would you draw the line between victim blaming and then somebody like getting out of being a victim? Like, where does that where would you see like that kind of develop and move forward?

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, that's such an important question because I think that it's more of the and versus compartmentalizing it. I think that we can have a hold space and grace for an individual who we're identifying as a victim. But I'm not huge on the term victim to begin with. So I do recognize that of course, of course, of course there are situations when somebody truly is a victim, no doubt not taking that away. Right. What I see most often with the couples that I work with or the clients that I work with in the toxic cycles, I think the percentage of the malicious narcissist, the evil pathological narcissist, I think that percentage is a whole lot lower than society wants to pretend that it is. Because you know what? It's clickbait and it's it draws people in. It's entertaining. Most people really don't have that level of malcontent. They're broken. They don't have the awareness, They haven't done their healing, they haven't put in the work. And so they have the ability to change, but they just have not yet. So again, that's not to say there aren't victims. But my point in saying that is that I don't believe that people are victims as often as they present to be victims. And I think that there's a lot more empowerment that is there and a lot more opportunity to take their power back. But it becomes a lot easier to just suggest that sounds so bad, but to identify as the victim versus saying, I have a role in this.

 

Carla Romo:
So I actually love that you just phrased it that way, because I think Sherry and I talk about this a lot on our podcast, how we feel like narcissism is just thrown out so much these days. Like you just said, it's clickbait and that does not take away from people who are experiencing narcissistic abuse right now. It doesn't. Okay. Those are two different topics that we're talking about right now. But this like clickbait, like, there are narcissists and whatever, it kind of makes me think about what you're just talking about. It's like the fascination. The obsession with it is almost this. Like it's almost like the walking like alive serial killer, right? That's like, that's kind of going around taking hits on all these people and like, after people and malicious. So you talked about, like, it being like a really low percentage. I forget what the percentage is, but what is the percentage of people who actually have narcissistic personality disorder?

 

Dr. Liz:
Do you I don't know that off the top of my head, but it is maybe a millisecond. Our producer can Google that for as we're chatting, but I know that it is Well, I don't know. I think it's literally within the maybe twos or threes or like really low.

 

Carla Romo:
That's what that's what I was thinking too. I remember, you know, and I remember, but it's like reading about it. You're like, Ha, not. Okay, So we're talking about like this very small percentage, right? And then everybody's like, there's narcissism, their narcissist, their narcissism, their narcissism. I actually think when people say that like it is putting themselves in, it's giving themselves permission to to kind of be like, yeah, I'm the victim. And this is, you know, and there's a place in time for being a victim 110%. But I think that that it takes away being empowered. It takes away from you changing, it takes away from you pointing, codependence, love, pointing the finger at others. I mean, it is like a field day. You can find out, you know, what everybody else needs to do better with their lives. But the idea is like when you turn it back to yourself, what happens? Yeah. And that's where you get empowered. That's an opportunity to be empowered and actually make change in your life and get out of those cycles that are toxic.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, Melissa just said it's about 1%, so yeah, it's extremely low. Thank you. Melissa. So I completely agree that it becomes really disempowering. This is a conversation I've been having lately as well about the anxious and avoidant.

 

Carla Romo:
Dance.

 

Dr. Liz:
That goes on. Okay, because.

 

Carla Romo:
I love this dance. Okay. Yes.

 

Dr. Liz:
Let's talk about this because I think we see a lot of this poor light. So we see the codependent and the narcissist, the anxious and the avoidant. Like, yes, we see all of these have correlations to them. So something that I have had a recent realization as somebody who shows that, well, what's interesting is that my insecure attachment style, when I'm triggered, I it it comes up as disorganized. And so I can kind of vacillate between that anxious or the avoidant. Okay, you're right there right here.

 

Carla Romo:
Me too. That that was that was my default. Yeah.

 

Dr. Liz:
Exactly.

 

Carla Romo:
So insecure. Yeah.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yes. And depending on how my partner so my my partner my ex-husband of 18 years, he was more anxious so I showed up as avoidant. The men that I've dated since my divorce have been avoidant, so I've shown up as more anxious. That's often what happens. But what I've realized is that in these relationships, it's been so easy to point the finger at the avoidant and to say, You're just not showing up for me. You don't care, you don't prioritize me, you don't you don't make me important. All of those things and the self-reflection that I've been doing recently and then been talking to clients about is that it's really easy because the individual with more anxious tendencies, their needs are a lot more overt and it's about time and it's about attention where somebody who is avoidant their needs are about time and space and it's a lot harder to really verbalize like I need time and space because then that comes across as a rejection to the anxious. And so what I really realized that ties in to this what is your role in it? And taking ownership and really empowering yourself is that if you continue to not get your needs met or you continue to feel like you're not being treated well, when is the last time you check in on yourself to say, What are my partners needs and how am I showing up for those? What is the last time I've asked my partner.

 

Carla Romo:
Well, that's good. I like that. That's juicy. Yes, Yes. 110%. Because it's one of those things where you're like, you're so especially okay, I I'm all for people hate on the avoidance so I know.

 

Dr. Liz:
I know we.

 

Carla Romo:
Often want connection right like.

 

Dr. Liz:
That. I want connection.

 

Carla Romo:
To they're just like one foot and one foot out. I got to protect myself. Well, we're getting too intimate. Got. I've got to pull back a little bit. Yeah, but I think what's something that, you know, I tell clients who are anxious, I actually say your partner actually might be meeting your needs. And this is something, a conversation that I was having with a client today. So she defaults to anxious and she's actually just recently said she was like, you know, I'm starting, she's in a really secure relationship and her partner just moved in with her. And, you know, they're moving forward in the relationship. And she said to me, you know, I'm starting to finally see the difference that I'm anxious, but I'm not in an anxious, avoidant relationship and my partner is secure. So I can start to take a breath now and feel safe and start to really trust. And I said, Well, yeah, because you're building that trust. But her default is to go into anxious. So instead, when she gets triggered through her anxious attachment, she takes a pause and then instead of asking herself like, This is what she just recently did, instead of being like, hey, I you know, you you weren't paying enough attention to me. Like, you know, I feel like you don't love me. Like, pay attention to me, you know, whatever. She takes a beat for herself, sits with herself, says What do I need? And then went and asked her partner, Hey, I'm just feeling a little down right now, like not feeling that great. Can you just can we just, like, cuddle for a moment? And he cuddled with her and gave her her needs and she felt better. Yeah. And so that's just like a perfect example. Exactly. Of what you were just talking about. Of like, asking like what? Like what are your partner's needs? Right? And like, not to put your own stuff on your partner, own your own shit. Don't be the victim, right? And show up and ask for your needs to be met And also look out as well. Like, what are your partner's needs? Your partners needs are probably not to be, you know, spewed on and triggered. And we're all human. We all have triggers and things happen in relationships. Nobody's perfect, but it's important to kind of take a second and reflect.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah. And that avoidant often feels very criticized and feels like no matter what they do, it's never good enough. And that's something I'm working with a client on this week as well in terms of that is doing an evidence log around her partner really actually showing up for her each day. And so while she feels like because those anxious tendencies are coming up and she talks about being so hyper vigilant about like when is he going to leave, when, you know, what is he doing wrong, how is he hurting me? And just being so aware of that that it becomes difficult to also be aware of what is he doing? Well, how is he showing up for me? How is he being safe? How is he being attentive? And so doing an evidence log where at the end of the day, she's going to identify at least a couple ways in which and, you know, when we met, it was earlier in the day and she was already able to identify five things he had done that morning that met her needs. But it's really hard to see it that way when we're constantly in a threat state and we're feeling triggered all the time, which is, you know, in these cycles.

 

Carla Romo:
Right, exactly. And, you know, I think, you know, from working with clients around this and I'm even going to talk about like my own self of moving myself from disorganized, which was avoidant and anxious at the same time is fun. It's a freaking party. You you can just get by. It's like, love me, Don't leave me, but I'm not going to get too close to you. You know, you can move to being secure 110%. And I think that is something and I don't do you see this with your clients when they're working through attachment style stuff and they're like, but I've read that I'm stuck in this like anxious or I'm stuck in this avoidant. I'll never get out. Do you find that like, people it's and I don't know if it's what they're reading or if they feel like it's so impossible, but do you find that with clients as well, that people have this idea that like you're stuck in your attachment style?

 

Dr. Liz:
Absolutely. And I think that what often happens is that they don't realize how much progress that they've actually made. And so when they started doing their healing and doing their work and I always talk about it, I don't know if you ever use the Diane Pool Heller quiz, but when you use that attachment quiz gives you a pie chart, right? And so you can see, I think the most important thing to start with when you look at that pie chart is to see that you're not ever going to be all of one thing. So even somebody who is mostly secure, they're still going to have these anxious, avoidant or disorganized tendencies that are going to come up when they're triggered. That is being human like that is just what happens. And so I think what is important to see for a lot of these clients who when they say, you know, it's just not going to change that, they don't realize that because humans are designed for adaptation, how they are today, they just feel like, I've always been this evolved, I've always been this secure. And it's like, no, let's go back to six months ago or a year ago. And I know that for myself as well, because even so, present day when I get triggered and these really embarrassing, insecure attachment behaviors come out and I'm like, What the fuck is wrong with you? You're a therapist, you've worked so hard and that you to realize like, no, I've, I've come a long way. It's just hard to realize that in the moment.

 

Carla Romo:
Yes. And triggers can feel so real. And I think it's so important for us, you know, as experts, professionals in this space to talk about our own stuff, you know, in the sense that like, yeah, like it's it's a journey like there is I keep like, you know, reinforcing this with clients. There's nothing to get Like there's ways to grow, but there's no like, I find because that's the codependency, right? Like, that would be my codependency fantasy. Finally, I find the perfect relationship. Everything's good and I never have to feel trigger again, right? Like or nothing will ever be disrupted. Or, you know, my relationship will never end and I'll be okay, Right?

 

Dr. Liz:
Action is I'm.

 

Carla Romo:
Yeah, there you go. And and so I just think it's important for everybody to recognize that, like, it's a journey, It's a process. And it's not just this like one and done. You're out, you're good, never going to experience it again. I think the idea is that it's almost like looking at it as like I always talk about sustainable self-love, sustainable self care. It's like, What are you doing on a daily basis to keep up with these tools to take care of yourself? Because then when you do get triggered, like, yeah, it sucks, I hate being triggered. Who likes being triggered? It makes you feel like you said, it's like, my God, here you are again. And all the shame comes up and you know, it's like we're professionals in this world, but it's like we're human beings. We can get ourselves back to a baseline much quicker because of all the work that we've done and we've put in.

 

Dr. Liz:
And such an important conversation. It's such an important takeaway from this conversation is what you just said, that there's nothing to get, there's nothing to arrive at. I have a very high achieving coaching client, and that was a conversation we had a couple of weeks ago. He was like, But when is winning? I'm just going to like click and I'm not going have to deal with this anymore. And that was exactly it. That is the codependency. So that's the high achieving that, the perfectionism that people pleasing, that is not the goal. It's how can we manage it better, How can we recognize it quicker and how can we handle it differently, even if it's not perfect For your journey out of codependency, what were some of those steps that you. So we really have established established this foundation of self-awareness. Yes. Where did you go from there?

 

Carla Romo:
I'm going to be completely honest with you. It was kind of a back and forth like, of course, I recognize and this is why I just have to say growth is not linear. Like there's no like, got it. We're going up, we're going up, we're going up and we're never going back down. It's like two steps forward, one step back. So actually, I was sitting in my therapist's office and I talk about this in my book, Contagious Love Break Free from Codependency for Damn Good. And I was sitting in my therapist's office. She's like, You're codependent. Okay. Talk about like the shame of perfectionism sitting in a therapist's office that I didn't ask her what that meant. I had to go home and Google it, so I like I was like, what is this? Like, Let me Google it. Like, let me look into this. And I was like, shit, Interesting.

 

Dr. Liz:
I'll look this out.

 

Carla Romo:
Okay? I was like, This checks out. So then I was like, Okay, I'm codependent. Yeah. So it was like kind of this acknowledgment, but I was kind of still testing it. And then that and then I got into this, like, really toxic, unhealthy. It was an abusive relationship. And I but because I had started the framework around, you know, loving myself and taking care of myself and filling up my self esteem and practicing affirmations, I got out of that relationship. It didn't stay that long in that relationship. I always say I overstayed my visit. There were red flags that I was ignoring. But but once I recognized, my therapist said to me, This sounds like abuse. I'm not saying he's abusive, it just sounds like abuse. Boom. It clicked for me. And in that moment I thought, hell no, I'm not going to let somebody treat me this way. I don't need to be in a relationship with an abuser. he's gaslighting me. this is it was like, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. Everything that I needed, like, it's like I needed to hit a bottom in order to get back up. And from there, you know, I did a lot of trauma therapy. I did a lot of EMDR because my codependency comes from it is rooted in my childhood. And so I took steps around that to really, like, work through my codependency. And then I created daily routines, habits, things like that that I still implement and still practice to this day so that I can keep on track of, you know, my codependency journey and recovery.

 

Dr. Liz:
Can you give us some examples of the daily habits?

 

Carla Romo:
Yes. So I like to stick to a schedule. I've always been a routine person. I stick to a schedule in terms of taking care of myself. So I have a bedtime. I try to get bed by 10 p.m. and people might think, Well, what are you talking about? Getting in bed by like 10 p.m., 1030? Like I try to get 7 to 8 hours of sleep. I prioritize my self care because if I'm not taking care of myself. Right. And and this is important for me, whether I'm single, whether I'm going through a breakup, whether I'm in a relationship, it doesn't matter. I prioritize this because I was prioritizing other people first and I was prioritizing their sleep and their needs and their schedule. So I stick to the schedule. I have a daily gratitude list at in the evening I write a gratitude list of simple ten things that I'm grateful for so I can kind of get out of my own thinking if I'm, you know, kind of in a negative place, what I don't have and whatnot. And that really helps shift like my mindset and wake up in the morning. I work out five days a week. I do it in a way to still take care of me. It makes me feel good. I show up for myself. I have goals for myself. I also practice affirmations. Those aren't always daily, but I like to just kind of take a moment and talk to my talk. I like to talk a lot. I like you know, my friends, family know me as that. But but I like to speak them aloud. And I actually tell my clients to do this all the time. So if I'm starting to feel a little funny and I feel like, man, like why am I feel a little down today? All right, Carl, you know what? You're worthy. You are a nurse. My whole my whole thing was like, I'm not enough. Like, I'm not lovable. That was my, like, default. And that gets triggered sometimes. And so I have to go back into the. No, Carla, you are enough. You've got this. It's okay. You're safe. I also am really big on hobbies, so I have different activities, different hobbies that I participate in because I didn't have hobbies, you know, for myself before. It was very much I and I talk about this a lot, but I was working in entertainment and television and I was burning out. So it wasn't just these unhealthy codependent relationships I was in. I was codependent with work. Yeah. And it was all rooted in like, I need to prove myself that I'm worthy enough to keep getting hired for the next TV show that I was working on. And so now I really that's my prioritize my sleep. This is why prioritize having hobbies outside of my business, which now is obviously a coaching business. But I have affirmations, I have my gratitude list, I go to therapy time, you know, time to time. When I'm feeling triggered, I check back in with my therapist. So I've got all these different things that keep me on track. I have a really great support system, really strong friendships, family, you know, people that I can rely on, that I can talk things through with so I don't have to hold it in and do it alone. That's a really big thing for me because I felt very alone in my codependency and as a child growing up. So now I, you know, whether, you know, it's a work thing, I'm not sure about or it's something within my dating life that I'm not sure about. I run it by, you know, a really good friend of mine. So I practice all these things and it's a bunch of random it seems like a bunch of random little things, but when you put it together, it really creates when I say it's like the sustainable self-love self-care.

 

Dr. Liz:
Right? And so powerful, like so powerful to be committed to yourself in that way, to do all of those things daily because you know, it's what's good for you. Even if you feel tired. Are you tempted to have somebody else take priority? You're committed to your self-care and you know that A lot of that really resonates with me, that when we are in our codependency flare ups or when we are in that state of codependency, we do let everybody in everything be the most important. And our objective, as you're saying, is to feel like enough. So if it's our relationships that we're letting take priority or that we're really anxiously pursuing, it's because we want acceptance. We want to know we're lovable, that we're worthy, and we do it with our work. It's because we want those achievements that we earn that praise. And so wherever it's flaring up at and it truly has the ability to take over unless you're aware that that's happening. But so I love that. So increasing the awareness, doing the healing, like you said, through the EMDR, which is so important to really address a lot of those attachment traumas that lead to these behaviors and then putting these new behaviors in place and that's such a beautiful journey that that you're on and that you probably will always be on. As you're saying.

 

Carla Romo:
I'm going to be on the under percent.

 

Dr. Liz:
Are you currently single or in a relationship?

 

Carla Romo:
I am dating somebody right now, so we'll see.

 

Dr. Liz:
You get all shy.

 

Carla Romo:
We'll see how it goes. I'll say. Now I'm like, Yeah, so I am seeing somebody. And you know what? It's it's newer and it's exciting. Like it's really fun and I'm in such a different place, you know, I'll share this because I've talked about it on sharing and podcast. It was our New Year's special and I was I was engaged in 2022 and I actually ended the engagement because there were red flags that actually were not present in the relationship prior. And I had very clear boundaries. And this is another thing of how I keep myself in check around my codependency recovery and healing and everything. And, you know, for me, I it's it's big for me that my boundaries are self care. They're not walls. They're to protect myself. And I do have deal breakers with those. And this person betrayed me in the relationship and that was a deal breaker for me. And, you know, it was it was really difficult and it was very traumatic the way that it happened. But I will say this. I am so grateful that it did happen because I got to experience a new facet of myself and a new part of myself and gain more confidence and work through certain things. And I have to say, I was in a really great place before this happened. It was a very sudden thing that had happened that I found out about, but I was in a really healthy place because I had all these things in my life and already in place. So this is why I just talk about it's a journey. There's nothing to get. And because I went through this experience, I already had this support system in place. Did it suck? Yes. Was it traumatic? Yes. Was was I, you know, going through a lot? Yes. But the same time I was able to get through it. And, you know, that's the thing about trauma is that I can, you know, something that I worked on with my therapist. I did EMDR around it and. I'm like, I'm alive, I'm surviving, I'm thriving.

And I genuinely feel that way. And so, you know, it's like I survived that. And there's a there's like a part of me that just feels very confident and like, I got this, like, I'm okay, you know, and, and yeah. So I would just want to share that because I think that a lot of people think like, like, you know, when you get I know a lot of my clients do is like, getting engaged is the goal or getting married and then I'll be whatever. But the idea is that those things are the cherry on top of the sun. They're not like, You are the sun like your life and what you've built is a sun. So. So you take the cherry off? Yeah. It sucks, right? Like it's not fun, but the idea is to always have the sun in place, and that's always having yourself so.

 

Dr. Liz:
And there's so much value in that. Thank you so much for sharing that us and there's so much value in that story, even about the healing journey, because I have a lot of clients or hear a lot of people say once I'm healed and then right. So in the same way you're saying once I'm engaged, once I'm married, and that's not how it works because you are still interacting with other imperfect humans who have the ability at any time to hurt you, just like you have the ability at any time to hurt them like we are human. And so when that healing is really in place and you've done so much of that healing and you're doing your daily work to maintain your healing when these traumas happen, the setback is not the same. It does not maybe derail you in the same way. Of course, like you're saying, it's going to fucking hurt. Absolutely no doubt. But the impact is going to look different and that's it my son and I were just having. He loves to talk to you about psychology and he he's 15, so he brought it up the other day and he was like, you know, somebody has like an anxious episode. Are they only going to have it once or like, are they so very similar to what we're talking about? And it was a good opportunity to say no likely if you have, you know, an anxious episode, you're going to have it again. But the power of the next time you have it is, you know, better how to handle it, you know how to manage it better and all of those things. And yeah, it's the same with our traumas. And, and.

 

Carla Romo:
You know, I have to say this as well. It's like just because I'm not in codependent relationships anymore doesn't guarantee your relationship will work out right. Like there's there's no guarantees. And and I think that is that's really just important to take it like in the sense of just you have no guarantees of any relationship and that can be very vulnerable. And that I think, is what brings connection to relationships and brings the healthy part to relationships. Is that like you're making a choice, It's a commitment. You know, the codependency would say, I'm stuck with this person. I have to make it work. I can't walk away from an engagement like I like people know we're engaged. Like, that would be, you know, the shame to come with it, that people would know there's dysfunction. That's B.S. to me. To me, it was like, okay, I'm prioritizing myself. I'm taking care of myself. My needs, like my self-love journey is the priority right now. And what do I need? Okay, well, I need to get out of this engagement. This is not this is not serving me anymore.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah. And that takes us full circle to this toxic cycle, because that's exactly it. When you're not willing to remove yourself from it or you're not willing to put those boundaries in place, then that is when you stay stuck. And I, you know, really identifying that toxic cycle as this repeated go around merry go round, so to speak, where there's two individuals, one or both unwilling to treat each other in an appropriate way, to show each other the love, the support, the affection that each need in a healthy way, yet also unwilling to remove themselves. And so they stay in this uncomfortable comfort zone. They stay in this dynamic that is painful, often for both of them, not just one or the other, but for both of them. And because of the codependency or because of image or fear of loss of this relationship, fear of being alone. There's so many reasons that people stay in this these cycles. But ultimately, that is how you stay stuck when you talk with your clients. Like what are some of the reasons? And I guess even if we could just take a second to validate and normalize the very many reasons why people stay in relationships, What are some of the things that you you hear from your clients?

 

Carla Romo:
A lot of times is that they're afraid they won't find somebody else, that they that they're just going to be alone forever, that they had this idea that their worth was built around a relationship. And I see this a lot for women. It's this idea, especially women. You know, I coach a lot of women in their thirties that this idea that they're going to get married, they're going to have children, and therefore society will tell them that they've made it, that they've done something right in their lives. And it's just not the truth. Right. And so they stay because they have this idea that they're trying to hold on to this fantasy, this dream. So that's definitely one way or another is abuse. It's really you know, you can get gaslit back into manipulated, controlled. You can't maybe always see it right away. So especially if you're in the beginning of the cycle, you think this feels crazy. What's going on? Like I'm I crazy. I maybe I'm the crazy one. The other one. I've also seen families pressuring people.

 

Dr. Liz:
yeah.

 

Carla Romo:
Now, honestly, it's not talked about enough, but there's a lot of there's a lot of enmeshment. It's just if you have enmeshment in your family, you probably got it in your relationship to. Right. It's just like.

 

Dr. Liz:
Came from somewhere. Yeah, came.

 

Carla Romo:
From somewhere where a lot of families are like, but he's a good person. Just stay with him. It's okay. Like, he means well. And and that can be confusing because now you're your trusted people. Your circle is kind of going against what you might intuitively or in your gut know isn't right. So those are just some of the reasons that a lot of people stay. I mean, I also know, too, of people who have children for financial reasons, too. If they're, you know, somebody is in a place where financially their partner is paying for their apartment, maybe they're not working right now. They don't feel like they have the freedom to be able to leave. So those are just some of, you know, some of many reasons about why some of my clients have stayed.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, no, I appreciate that. And I agree. And I think that the financial piece and the children piece are often easily dismissed and overlooked, and it's often the expectation of if you're so unhappy, why don't you just get out? If they're so abusive, then why are you with them? And that's just incredibly ignorant on so many levels. That's not how it works. And so I do like to normalize that. You know, if you if you're listening and you in a relationship that does not feel safe or it feels like you're part of this toxic cycle, your first step is really to increase awareness around your role of it, but also give yourself some space and grace to really identify why you're staying and the reasons for that. And then you can see if you actually do have other options, if there are other things that are within your circle of control. But I do like to normalize that, that people aren't staying because they're stupid or they're weak or they don't know any better. It's often because truly feel powerless.

 

Carla Romo:
yes. And yeah, I mean, that's it. That's exactly it. Yeah.

 

Dr. Liz:
And that's.

 

Carla Romo:
My job. Yeah. Okay, we're done.

 

Dr. Liz:
All right, Carla. Well, tell us, where can people find you? Where are you on social media? Your website.

 

Carla Romo:
So you can find me at Carla Romo dot com or tik-tok. Instagram, Facebook at I am Carla Romo. And then also I am the co-host of the Love Fix podcast and we have a fun little free are my relationships healthy quiz that you can go to the love fix scam check it out. And we're also on Instagram at the Love Fix podcast.

 

Dr. Liz:
Very good. Carla, thank you so much for hanging out with me. So many good insights, so much fun with you. I appreciate it.

 

Carla Romo:
Awesome. Thank you so much.

 

Dr. Liz:
Thanks, Carla, for being so real with me today about your journey towards surviving and thriving. And thank you all for hanging out Unrelatable relationships unfiltered. Make sure to subscribe to our YouTube channel, Sign up for my newsletter and find me on Instagram at. Dr. Elizabeth Fedrick.