Relatable podcast 

Dr. Liz:
I don't know if my preference would be if I was in a relationship to be non-monogamous, but I do think I've realized. Back to our earlier point, that I don't know that I will. That my choice is to be with somebody long term either.

 

Dr. Han Ren:
I mean, this is kind of my like coming out.

 

Dr. Liz:
Party, coming out party.

 

Dr. Han Ren:
Like here I feel finally.

 

Dr. Liz:
So.

 

Dr. Han Ren:
Honored. Like, more publicly. I mean, all my close friends now, like, there, there's no surprise there. And I think when it comes to family, it's like they will. I don't think anyone would truly understand. And I think their biggest thing is like, well, are you getting a divorce? No. Okay. And like, okay, what? You know, whatever.

 

Dr. Liz:
This is relatable. Relationships, unfiltered. Hey, welcome to Relatable Relationships unfiltered. Today, I'm having one of the most relatable conversations yet with Han Ren licensed psychologist. We're having a super honest conversation about all things non-monogamy, including what it means to be ethically non-monogamous and the role this has played in both of our lives. Hello, Han. How are you?

 

Dr. Han Ren:
I'm great. How are you, Liz?

 

Dr. Liz:
I'm good. Thanks so much for coming to hang out with me today. I'm so excited to just chat with you about this topic of Numb Monogamy is where we're going to go today. Tell us about just a little bit like about the work that you do. So you and I met through a consultation group. We both are in the mental health field. We hit it off pretty quickly, personality wise, passion wise, morals, values, ethics, all of that just kind of seemed to align. So tell us a little bit what you do professionally. What do you specialize in all of that?

 

Dr. Han Ren:
Yeah, So I'm a licensed psychologist in Austin, Texas. I have a group practice here and I specialize in healing racial trauma, racial identity, development, anxiety, perfectionism, overthinking overachievers. And I really work from kind of a liberation psychology standpoint, like decolonizing mental health or we talk a lot about systemic oppression and all of the, you know, systems of power that we live under and how they impact individual mental health.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah. And that is really where you and I connected in a lot of ways. Like not even, I would say intentionally, like I think it was just kind of happened. And that's where I think this topic comes into the non-monogamy topic because when we're talking about the societal influences and also the the way that we're shamed for sexuality or our choices around sexuality, that certainly all ties under this umbrella of whatever this bigger agenda is, That's going on, that, you know, that we should comply with these societal norms.

 

Dr. Han Ren:
Yeah, Yeah, for sure. Like, it was not something that we were ever allowed to interrogate or question. It's just, you know, growing up such a give it such a standard.

 

Dr. Liz:
Right. Which is so interesting because then I think about like, yes, the way that we think about sexuality, the way that we think about relationships, about marriage, and really you and I can relate in the term in terms of the research that we've done around the idea of not being monogamous and what that means. And so I was married for 18 years, got married when I was 18, and we really grew up together. And in that there was a season of time where I started to do a lot of research around because I sort of have these thoughts of like, What's wrong with me? Like, you know, when I am, why can't? So and I grew up very religious upbringing, and then my ex-husband and I were actively involved in the church around that time. And it was like, why is everyone so happy in their marriages? And like, fine being committed and. Yeah, exactly. And he was too. And I'm like, what's wrong with me that I am that I'm not content? And that's what kind of led to my research around that.

 

Dr. Han Ren:
Yeah, Yeah. I mean, you know, similarly, I met my husband when I was 23 and, you know, before that, like I was in a very just like a kind of a trauma vortex when it comes to relationships. And I really viewed every single relationship I had as my future ex. And, you know, there was a lot of shame around that. And as we grew up together and grew a life together was like, well, you know, maybe this will go away if I do this, or I need to like have kids and have reached this milestone, have this accomplishment. And it was always like, it's because I'm not satisfied in this other realm and so much shame around, you know, there's something wrong with me that this is so hard.

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Dr. Liz:
Right. And that's interesting that you say that about the relationships that you had prior leading up to that, because I can completely relate to that. Like I would not commit in high school, like at all. And then I remember so clearly, I talk about the story all the time. I had a conversation with my mom. I was probably like 16 or 17. Like, I have the visual. We're driving in the car and I say to her, like, Do you think I'm actually going to be able to find somebody like, How do you know? I'm, you know, And she again, they raised us so heavy in religion that it was like, of course you're going to find your partner and you're going to have kids and, you know, all of those things and for me to have the thought as a teenager of like, what am I like? How am I going to be able to find that? And then as you're describing, you know, getting married and then going to this cycle of like, wait, maybe it was on to something at 16 or 17 years old and signed off here.

 

Dr. Han Ren:
And I mean, it's like non-monogamy is something that people talk about in different ways. It's even stigmatized within like kind of alternative relationship, you know, lifestyle norms too, because it's like not queer. It's maybe adjacent. Right? But, you know, people talk about it so much, like the lifestyle that you choose. But then like for some people, like it's an identity and it's an identity that you grow into and learn to accept and become more comfortable with. And I have always felt that for me it was more of an identity than a lifestyle choice.

 

Dr. Liz:
Can you elaborate, like when you even talk about So I had told a friend that I was doing this episode and they were like, What's the difference between polyamory and non-monogamy? Like, when did we kind of switch? Is there a distinction? I understand how different that sounds.

 

Dr. Han Ren:
Big umbrella of ethical non-monogamy is like non-monogamy. There's ethical and not ethical, which is cheating. So then under the umbrella of ethical non-monogamy, there's like a whole continuum. Like there's people who are just like, it's only about the sex or it's only about, you know, certain types of, you know, emotional connections. but generally it's more like people who are sort of sounds like non-monogamous generally are having sex with people and then there's all the way to like polyamory, which is like multiple committed love relationships and then like relationship anarchy where there's no even hierarchy where like every single committed relationship is an equal standing order. Like you get to determine the terms of it between the two people or more than two people, whoever's in that relationship, rather than like, you know, there's a default hierarchy that you defer to.

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Dr. Liz:
Got it. Okay. So we're using this term as like an umbrella statement for not living this traditional Christian value to legal marriage type.

 

Dr. Han Ren:
Right. Right. I mean, ideal. The romantic and sexual exclusivity is what I think of as monogamy.

 

Dr. Liz:
Sure. Sure. So how did you have this conversation? So I know you shared with me that this is like something you've been exploring recently with your partner. How did it come up in conversation? Like, how did you even broach the topic?

 

Dr. Han Ren:
I mean, it's been the entire time that we were together. And I think, you know, I, I do see it as so much as like part of who I am, but I also see it as like kind of result of early childhood experiences I've had where I've had a lot of pretty disruptive of attachment trauma in my early childhood, where I had such just like chronic, pervasive shame about who I was and whether I was lovable. And it, you know, grew from there to a point where I didn't know, like, could any one person love me? Could I love one person, or do I need more than one person to love me so I could feel safe? And so when me and my partner first started dating, like, you know, I was in a lot of just like, like relational trauma stuff where I was not the best to him. And I would end up like, you know, we'd be out with friends and I'd be talking to some random people and like, you know, So it was a lot of it was traumatic for him. Like it was really, really hurtful. And then, you know, I thought, okay, well, I just need that commitment. Like, let's get engaged, let's get settled, let's get married. And like, you know, with every element to it, realizing, okay, some things make it a little bit better, easier to navigate, but like, there's still something else that's there and tandem of exploring what do I want from this life and like really healing my own childhood individual trauma, realizing that, you know, that helps, but it just sort of shaped the different flavors of it. And so it was revisited so many times. Like, you know, I had I had my first child and I was like, okay, now I'm going to be that like committed monogamous wife, mom. And then like, I felt like super frumpy. I wasn't myself. I had a lot of like sparks that disappeared. And ironically, it was 2011 and Tinder had just come onto the field and my partner's like, how would you can get an ego boost, you know, as you try it out, see, see what happens? And then I tried it. I was like, my God, I love this. And look for like, you know, all the reputation, like what it's dating is now. So and but like, that was like, okay, there's a part of me that's, like, still buried deep in there. And, you know, it was very triggering for him because he's like, I didn't know that I was going to, like, do that. So then we like, put a pause on it for a while and like, but it was like throughout our entire marriage, it has come up in different ways that really made it hard to ignore. And when it became clear, like, okay, we're done having kids, we are settled in our careers, settle in our lives, and like we're fully, fully committed to each other. And this life that we built and I'm still like yearning for something else or feeling like there's not completion for me individually. It was about three years ago that I was really like, We need to look at this and go to couples therapy and both the individual therapy. And from there we just like, you know, kept it a topic of conversation and, you know, ongoing work around it to the point where like now we're like pretty comfortable with being polyamorous.

 

Dr. Liz:
So then is that so the doors have been open. So that is like research phase is over. We are now implementation like let's give it a whirl.

 

Dr. Han Ren:
Yeah. I mean like I've been, I've been working in this space, so I feel boundaries, different types of relationships, you know, a lot of different kinds of communication things. But like for him it's like he's like, okay, I'm doing this now too, right? And like, it's for him, but he's easier too. So we're both just kind of exploring to see where, you know, where we land. And we're still going to all of our therapy around it and we're still, you know, doing a lot of check ins and, you know, touch points around it.

 

Dr. Liz:
How did that feel for you then when? So that was a bit of a shift in the dynamic then, right? Like because it was mostly you pursuing it. But now he's like, okay, well, you know, that seems fair for both of us. So what was that like for you?

 

Dr. Han Ren:
gosh, it was so liberating. You know, like it's I've been talking about this with my friends. Like sometimes when you have this expectation or this hope and you, like, want this thing so badly and then you get it and you're like, man, it's like disappointing. Like things rarely ever live up to their expectations. But for me, like with this thing, it's been so wonderful. It's surpassed my expectations. I've had such joy around it. And like, I think maybe I'm just more of a naturally kind of compulsive person where like, you know, I see, like his discovery phase and I get, like, really excited and like, you know, I'm rooting him on rather than like, feeling jealousy. And I'm sure there will be bumps and jealousy, you know, in the mix because it's just a human thing, no matter, you know, who you are. But for the most part, it has felt really wonderful.

 

Dr. Liz:
When you can't like decided on the boundaries because I'm just even like, as as you're talking, I'm thinking about my dad dynamic with my ex-husbands. We're still best friends. So we are, you know, we spend multiple times a week together, and so we actively talk about our dating lives to each other. And people are how you guys are so weird. But that's what I'm kind of like picturing is that it's probably a similar concept of that is that we don't feel like it's weird because we have the foundation of our relationship is just there's safety in it, right? So when we're talking about it, like it doesn't feel weird, it just feels like talking to a friend. But what I have noticed from myself, so I'm interested if you've experienced this at all. So even a divorce when he's talking about maybe like his sexual relationship with somebody or starting to date somebody, like, I don't like I'm like, you know, sending my emails off or whatever. I'm not even being genuine. I'm like, Yeah, okay, whatever. But when it comes to like, him showing up emotionally or when maybe he's not able to meet one of my emotional needs as friends, like that's very clear boundaries around just being friends. But because maybe a someone he's dating or something like that. So he's not available to me. Like I notice even now divorced three years later that I'm kind of like, but hey, wait a minute. You know, like I needed something. Does that do you notice at all, whether it's sexually or physically, emotionally, is there anything for you when it comes to all of that, that.

 

Dr. Han Ren:
Yeah, I definitely had some hiccups were were like needing to align, you know, and recalibrate and just bring new information in and like desires and whatever into the fold. And, you know, I think in our opening process, it's really been very nontraditional in that the biggest sticking point for him was sex. It was not emotions like he was really okay with me having deep emotional connections with other people. And I think part of it is, is because he knows I do that for a living. You know, like I'm forming like strong emotional connections with everybody. And I'm also just a pretty extroverted person with like deep, meaningful friendships that I very much like value and prioritize. So, like, the emotional part wasn't hard for him. And then also, like he has always had like very close work wives that like have been, you know, I think other people would be like about, you know, which I've always very much encouraged. And so like it's been kind of, you know, not a traditional path and that like we have very allowed each other and like you know, celebrated the deep emotional relationships that we formed outside of our marriage. And only more recently is like sex, you know, been on the table. And then there's still some boundaries around information that we share with each other. We're just neither of us really want to know details. And we, you know, certainly have conversations around safety and expectations. But that's you know, we agreed to not share certain things where we said like, is it okay, do you want to know this? And then if they may not like we respect that. We communicate around how much information the other person wants to receive. And I think the last part of is like we have two fairly young ish children and like when you have kids, it's there's a inherent hierarchy. Like it just has to be because you have to prioritize your children's well-being and the family life, right? And so you know, we're approaching this with like a very clear like we put each other first, like we are the hierarchy and everything else is secondary. And that's communicated with all of our other partners and everyone is, you know, and consent and then the know about it.

 

Dr. Liz:
And I think like in most often in our culture, if somebody were to have a desire to be with somebody else, the decision would have just been, then we should get divorced, then we just shouldn't be together. What influenced your guys's decision? And to be like, No, that's not like we want to be together, we want to be a family and we want this. How did like, how did you come there?

 

Dr. Han Ren:
I mean, I think it's because it's just been a part of the fabric of our relationship from the very beginning of just like, you know, we were committed but then like, you know, we always like, call her hon, like, there's hot hon coming out. Like, forget, you know, her partner. And it's always been kind of like this alter ego that we were like trying, I was trying so hard to just, like, suppress or keep in check and like, you know, not give her that space, but like, and I was able to do that, especially when I was like pregnant and nursing when I just like very much nesting mode but didn't kind of like dimmed my lights of just how I approached the world and people and relationships in general. And so, you know, over the years it became very clear that this is a part of me that's just like baked into a part of me. And we did have that, like real big reckoning was about a year ago where I was like, I want to like, fully go there or like, we need to examine other possibilities. And we like, had just several months of, like intense, like tears and like long discussions of like, you know, is divorce on the table? Is this something that we are going to like? What's the crossroads here? And we really looked at it and we're like, neither of us wanted to dissolve our family like we are such great life partners and we're such like great romantic partners too. It wasn't born from a lack in our marriage. There was no like, problems. It was always just something that, like I have wanted in addition. So, you know, so for me, like, it is an identity, but for him it's like a lifestyle. Like he would be perfectly happy, be monogamous. And he's also like, Well, we're doing this now. And, you know, I'm actually really surprised. Like he's been more into it than I thought he would be.

 

Dr. Liz:
Like, You're like, Whoa, whoa, buddy. No, I don't.

 

Dr. Han Ren:
Right over here. All right. What? Like, I'm also really, really delighted that he's, like, having fun, and it's like healing some of his early relationship trauma to where he had some ideas about his, like, desirability, his sexual capital. And he's getting to, like, rewrite some of those scripts and like, you know, have some healing there. And I'm so excited about that for both of us.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, I like how you were talking about it from the lens of it being more of a healing, a healing journey versus it being the result of it stemming from trauma, because I think that's one of the most common misconceptions and that's something I dealt with. I am. And you know, I was open with you right when we met about like I'm wildly aware of my attachment trauma is I'm wildly aware of how they still come up in spite of how many years and years of work I've put in. But that is the stigma that was with me in my marriage when I couldn't figure it out, you know, when I couldn't be content in this one relationship, this one romantic relationship. And that was what kept coming up, is that, yeah, I just must be so severely traumatized that that's why I can't stay committed. How do you kind of like we just in the research you've done in your exploration around that, what is your view on that when it comes to the stigma of, you know, maybe that people are going to say you're choosing this lifestyle because of your trauma or because of your attachment wounds? What are your thoughts around that?

 

Dr. Han Ren:
I mean, it's it's got some validity to it, right? Like, you know, but I also would say that, like my childhood experiences have colored every single facet of my identity and personality. Like, you can't extricate those things. And so, you know, you can't go back and change. That's like, if I didn't have those experiences, would I be here? Like, maybe not, but also like, I don't think we need to attach that shame to it. And like, not to say that every non-monogamous person is traumatized. There's plenty who are not. But yeah, it's just like, you know, the BDSM kink world. There's a lot of people who get to that place as a reaction and as a way to find healing and, you know, an outlet for some of their traumas. And you just sort of like integrate it and roll with it. And I don't think of it as like a a damage thing, but as like a colored thing, Like it's lots of colors the way that I am in relationships. And that's not inherently a bad thing. It's just giving myself the opportunity to look beyond that as like I will forever be missing that I can integrate something else that maybe is nontraditional and like find joy in healing with a different journey. And, you know, it's very much challenges like our capitalistic, you know, norms when it comes to relationships that, you know, like being non-monogamous is also a political identity for me. Like, I don't want to be, you know, beholden to these structural norms.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah. And that was, you know, one of the main the foundations when we look into the Union of Marriage and we talk about that from the agriculture perspective and that it was so much more about a financial gain or a a trade than it really was about this is how we are wired and this is how we're designed. And I think that that's what I continue to come back to. And I don't know if my personal preference, you know, like as a single person, I whatever, you know, whatever I so choose. But I don't know if my preference would be if I was in a relationship to be non-monogamous. But I do think I've realized back to our earlier point that I don't know that I will that my choice is to be with somebody long term either like I. I think that that's where my non-monogamy comes in. You know, that's how mine kind of plays out, is that giving myself space and grace to be okay with.

 

Dr. Han Ren:
I find, yeah, have relationships be so deep and rich and meaningful and not have to last forever or look a certain way. And we're like to just form different ways of collective and community care in like taking care of each other in lots of different ways and not having, you know, the relationship escalator or external values determine how we want to care and love.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, yeah. And I completely agree because the shame that I carried of like the thought of being with somebody for the rest, like, holy shit, that's a long time the rest of your life. That's a really long time. Yeah. Yeah. And when you're exploring though from the lens that you, the way that you and your partner are choosing to do it, I think that there is value in that because then you're not holding on to that that really long time maybe doesn't you have these other things coming and going. Yeah.

 

Dr. Han Ren:
Yeah. And it's like you know, in this journey it has really solidified our commitment to each other. Like, I feel so much more like sure of this because he is also sure of me, right? Like he's like, willing to do something that he may not have chosen because he loves me and is so committed to me and my wellness and our life that we've built together. And so I think in a lot of ways it has deepened our relationship with each other. And I find so much joy in that, right?

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah. And that I was thinking the same thing when you were talking earlier, that there it does say a lot, right, about how committed he is to you, about how much he loves you, that he's willing he's like, this is not my preference. This is not what I would choose, but I'm willing to do it for you. How have you dealt with like the shame? Has there have you told family members? Have you told like, how are you navigating all of that?

 

Dr. Han Ren:
I mean, this is kind of my like coming out party.

 

Dr. Liz:
Coming out party.

 

Dr. Han Ren:
Like here I'm I feel finally.

 

Dr. Liz:
So.

 

Dr. Han Ren:
Honored that like, more publicly, I mean, all my close friends now like, they're there's no surprise there. And I think when it comes to family it's like they will I don't think anyone would truly understand. And I think their biggest thing is like, well, are you getting a divorce? No. Okay. I'm like, okay, what? You know, whatever. I don't think they I think it'd be very confusing to them. I think like, yeah, we've got to navigate like telling kids, but they also grew up like in such an inclusive environment where we talk about everything that this wouldn't be that big of a stretch. I think like one of the things that I have some fear about is like, okay, my like friends, who are the parents of my kids friends, like that's a whole layer of like social circle that this doesn't naturally come up in conversation that like, yeah, there's still some, some work to be done or you know, even with like, like clients, right? This is not a part of my identity that I have been very open with. But know we are here.

 

Dr. Liz:
We are. I am honored to be part of that conversation with you. I think that's a really interesting point when it comes to even your kids, friends, parents, the polyamory gets almost categorized as sexual deviant, so to speak. Like it gets categorized as, you know, again, like almost a moral. It not almost. And I think it does get stigmatized as that way as a moral issue. That's a really great point. Does that create fear for you?

 

Dr. Han Ren:
Because there's anxiety around it, But also, like, you know, we have very firm boundaries of like how we navigate this and what we protect our children and family from and like what we keep separate. And it really doesn't have to have any really influence on how we do family life. So, you know, and also in terms of just like our solidity as parents, like I have no, you know, questions about like our ability to be good parents regardless of what we're doing. And I think in a lot of ways, like it's so much better than what people are doing other places, right, where they're just like cheating on each other and like hiding it and, you know, being super secretive and still doing it and like not taking care of their hearts or each other's hearts or safety.

 

Dr. Liz:
Physical safety is such a beautiful point because you're right, the percentage of people who engage in non-monogamy, right, is far beyond that. I tell clients that all the time it comes up in conversation when either they're coming in because they or their partner, you know, there's been infidelity and and it breaks my heart every time that people think they're so alone in it because it does feel so isolating. It doesn't mean that such a betrayal so devastating. But feeling the humiliation around that of like that, it happened to them for a reason. There must be something wrong with them. How do you navigate that world with your clients when you're dealing with the infidelity like around that? And then, I mean, such an important comparison that it's it's not the same as being obviously open with your partner.

 

Dr. Han Ren:
Right, Right, right. I mean, I think, you know, for a lot of us, like that was the path before, right, where you're just like, I really struggle. Like I personally have really struggled with monogamy and there's been such this, like deep, chronic shame around what that means about me as a person, as a partner, as, you know, drive and deserve, be someone's therapist. If I'm, like, struggling with this and, you know, the the ways that, like, I think about it is like in a generational term too, right? Like if I was born ten years earlier, like, I don't think I'd be here. I think I would just continue to, like, be very secretive and, you know, shutting it down and trying so hard to, like, stay within the confines of traditional marriage. If I was born ten years later, I think I would have arrived here way earlier and had not had to experience all of that shame. Yeah. And so I think our times are changing in such a liberating way where this can be a conversation again and it's so much more normalized. Like if you go on the dating app like so many more people are putting like ENM or poly in partnered whatever on their dating profiles, especially since COVID when people are like examining, okay, I'm spending all my time with this person. This is what I really want for myself. Is this the life that I want to create and how do I expand in ways that feel rich and fulfilling without blowing everything up? And, you know, I remind my clients like, you know what? Like there's two different things, right? There's the betrayal. And like, everything that needs to happen with, like, trust, you know, and reestablishing and healing and repairing from that. But then there's also like, there's more than, you know, break up or never do this again, right? Like, there's there's lots of different ways that relationships can look now. And you don't have to be so confined to what you think you know, the choices are.

00:30:29:12 - 00:30:50:03
Dr. Liz:
Yeah, such a good point. Like, so important, finding the gray in between. It doesn't have to be that all or nothing. And even this idea that when infidelity takes place that doesn't have to be the deal breaker of a relationship, that doesn't have to be the end, like there can be exploration, there can be healing. And then like you're saying, there could be a pivot if that's appropriate.

 

Dr. Liz:
But there are so many other options available. I love how you said, Well, I don't love it for you and I'm sorry that you experienced this, but let me validate for you how you're being so honest with what does this mean for me as a therapist, because I have gone through that so much and I have been so transparent with my ex about that. He knows it's one of my biggest fears. I was a big reason even for this podcast was that I, I was like, I can't keep showing up as this thing that everyone wants me to be because that's not who I am. And it feels really inauthentic to me. It feels really trapping to me. But that's something I've talked to him about before is like, What does that mean for me as a therapist? That I've struggled with monogamy and I have struggled with making decisions that people come in and seek therapy for, you know, that they're like, What's wrong with me? That's so validating to hear you say that as well. But even as therapists, we are so human.

 

Dr. Han Ren:
We're so human. And I think that's like, you know, part of like the liberation psychology journey, the decolonizing journey, is that like, you know, part of this is flattening that hierarchy. We're like this that expert blank slate model of like, I'm just there. Like, you know, with my pen and paper, like making observations and, you know, completely detached from just humanity. And, you know, part of it, it's like, sure, you got to have boundaries and, you know, be like judicious in your self-disclosure. But there's also like a lot of just connection around being able to say like, Hey, I've experienced that too. And like, you know, this is all just part of my process because I have been able to be more frank about like my lived experiences as a woman of color growing up, as, you know, an Asian-American immigrant and all of these different factors that have very much colored my world view and how I approach the work of therapy. And this is just another layer of like how my identities do impact how I show up in the therapy around.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, I think social media has been really valuable. There's a lot to be said about social media, but I do think that that's where it brings in a lot of value is is that relatability piece and that normalizing piece. And I know for me that's made a really big difference in every so often, you know, that a post will be really I'll provide transparency of like, I see you and I hear you and I feel you in a way that you don't even realize because you come in thinking I have it all figured out. But let me assure you that is not the case.

 

Dr. Han Ren:
Yeah. Yeah. Do we ever have it all figured out? We are. I mean. Right? All journeys.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, absolutely. And yes, and always pivoting. And that's, I think what this season of your life is really representative of is this decision to do something to finally really own what you've known and pivot accordingly, which is, as you know, incredibly brave and hopefully can be even through this conversation or as you start to become more open about it, that people can really see it as more, okay, more normalized. Do you plan to share it more, to be more open? Like what is your own?

 

Dr. Han Ren:
Like, I don't I don't think I'm going to change like the sort of the focus of my social media platform to this level. Like it's just part of it, just like all these other parts of, you know, who I am show up on social media and what I share with the world. And I mean, I think it's also just like you like this kind of like a culmination of like, now like we are here, we're doing this thing. But like the seeds of it, I think have really been planted for the past ten years. We've been like deconstructing and interrogating and iterating. Like, you know, before this it was like, you know, special friends. And before that it was like, you have like a pen pal, You know, there's this all of these different iterations that we have had trying to, like, scratch this or like, meet this need, you know, under the, like, guys or, you know, comfort levels of where we were at the time. And so it's just here we are at like this chapter, right? Like, who knows what's going to evolve into and you know, what's going to happen next. But it's all been a process.

 

Dr. Liz:
From your expertise in the field of how culture really does it influence our decisions in general in and you know, all that comes along with that. Have you found that there are cultural influences, even maybe for certain cultures that or certain populations that maybe can own this in a different way than other populations? I'm sure you've done research around that.

 

Dr. Han Ren:
I mean, I think it's really hard because on the one hand there is like, you know, existing in a marginalized body like there's so much that tends to like, stack up and come with it, but there's all of this stigma. But, you know, when when you kind of look in like the apps of like who's, you know, who's who's swiping on here, who's doing this, like it tends to be very white. And like, maybe part of it's is like where I live and, you know, sure, it's a white town, but yeah, but it's I mean, it is it's hard to find more like people of color who are doing this. And, you know, there is a additional layers of stigma to the point where, like, you know, I don't really have any hopes that our families would really get it or like celebrated or like, be along for the ride with us. I think it's you know, we are we're doing that for us in our way. But it's like an extra layer of like deconstruction to have to you know, it's hard enough to talk about mental health and as an Asian person because it's already so stigmatized. Now we got this like thing that is even more taboo that we are bringing into the fold.

 

Dr. Liz:
Adding on top of it. Do you think it's tied into the I mean, this again, sounds like a very ignorant question, but I would like to hear from your perspective the white entitlement that, you know, when we're thinking about people of color, that they have all of these additional things, that stressors that navigating day in and day out that a lot of white people are not. And so it's almost this additional freedom to be able to do this. So when you're saying on the app that there are a lot more white people, like what do you kind of attribute that to?

 

Dr. Han Ren:
Yeah, I mean, because it's a privilege rise of privilege to be authentic. It's a privilege to not have to worry about, you know, estrangement or rejection or to get fired from your job or, you know, all of these other factors that, like not only is it, you know, being non-monogamous, but like if you are in the queer community at all, like there's it's very hard to come out as a queer person of color because of the addition and all stressors of just existing in an already marginalized body. And then you have the double, triple, quadruple layers on top of it like it is, you know, more, more pressure, more expectations and more fear. And I do wonder about like the next generation where there's a more celebration and more inclusivity, like if it's going to be, you know, the same type of pressure, I'm sure there's going to be different, different, but it might be a little bit different.

 

Dr. Liz:
How do you help your clients to kind of navigate that? You're lines of color who are, you know, maybe dealing, as you're saying, with this additional marginalization? How do you help them to process through that or even come to terms with it? Like, I don't even think that's the right way to manage it, I guess. How do you. Yeah, work through it.

 

Dr. Han Ren:
I mean, I think there's there's always this balance, right? Cause, you know, you got to, like, dismantle capitalism, but we required capitalism to live. That's a system under which we live. So we all have to, like, make a paycheck. Like, that's just what it is. It's like holding the paradox and dialectics. And it's not that different from all the other dialectics under which we live, right? Incremental change will never be enough, but environmental change is better than no change. And, you know, so I really try to help my clients challenge the status quo and the systems under which they live. Like, is it because you suck or is it because the standards for which success, you know, has been taught to you has never been accessible or really a fair playing ground and really understanding like how much of this is like because of you and how much of this is because of the systems under which you live like. And in both cases, it's still your responsibility to cope with it. And I think that's sort of the area that like people get stuck on is like, but then people are just going to like, you know, be entitled or complicit or complacent. And, you know, regardless of like where it came from, it's still our responsibility to live with it. So how do we bring on some compassion and understanding so we can like navigate this in a way that feels, you know, true to who we are, and yet also acknowledging the barriers that very much exist?

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, so important, so empowering when you can look at it from both perspectives that that there are these barriers, there are these things in the way and there are things within our circle of control to do something about that, to manage it, how we respond to it and what a difference that makes. And we can hold both truths, truths simultaneously, that it's, you know, we do have more power maybe than we realize in a lot of situations, and there's a lot of really shitty stuff that we're powerless to.

 

Dr. Han Ren:
Yeah, Yeah, for sure.

 

Dr. Liz:
I know that I agree.

 

Dr. Han Ren:
But it's like we're all just trying to survive. But I think that's one of the, you know, silver linings, I guess, of this pandemic where like, people are trying less hard to survive based on someone else's standards for them like realizing what this collective trauma, this collective grief, like life is short. There's a lot of fucked up things going on in the world, and we're all just trying to, like, find our pockets of joy and make it make sense for us in our unique ways. So like, why are we trying so hard to live up to somebody else's standards for us? And yes, that also comes with privilege to be able to choose what makes sense for you. Both are true. Yeah.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, for sure. And we try to live up to those standards because we want acceptance. We have attachment issues. So that's what's going on for us. What would you say before we wrap up? Yeah, people who are listening and they're like, Yes, I can relate, I can resonate. I it's what I want. Where even to start with that, you know, what is, what is the conversation that we had? What's a good way to start the conversation? Maybe just like a couple ideas on where to get started.

 

Dr. Han Ren:
Yeah, I mean, start reading. There's a lot of really great books out there that are super helpful for understanding and navigating this. I mean, there's like books for therapists all about like understanding this as well. You know, some of my favorites are like not kind of the first wave stuff that I didn't really find helpful, but I really love Polly. Secure by Jessica Fern I really love Falling, but follow Polly Philia blog on Instagram and Tick Tock. There's a book called Open Monogamy by Tami Nelson, which like for people who maybe don't want to go all the way to the polyamory relationship anarchy side, but just want to like, you know, stay committed but like open up a little bit here and there and like there's a whole spectrum and the more we can, you know, let that be a thing, right? Like this doesn't have to be like all or nothing. You can choose what works for you and your own relationships and you can change your mind. Maybe you try it out like, that's not for me. You know, these are all, all possibilities. But, you know, I will say, like, if you're having problems in your relationship and you want this to be a fix for you, that's not going to happen. Like this is not something that you can add thinking that you will no longer have your core relationship problems is just going to add more. And in fact, like when we had that really, you know, kind of come to Jesus, like interrogation of like what's going to happen in our marriage. Like, I stopped all dating. Like it was just like we spent a good like eight months of just intense couples work and focusing and talking and connecting. I'm just like, no, we've got to figure this out for us. This is our, you know, foundation and basis and everything else is like, you know, maybe it'll be there, maybe it won't. But we cannot move forward for either of us until. We are good, the two of us, and on the same page and like that, like core work was so fundamental to everything else. And also, like, part of that core work was revisiting early relationship trauma, which, like nobody likes to do because, like, we're not the same people that we were when we got into these relationships ten, 15 years ago. But some of those foundational wounds still impact the way that we interact and the way that we relate now. And so we had to really dig deep and interrogate and excavate some of those old, old traumas and heal from that before we were able to actually move forward in, you know, new frontiers.

 

Dr. Liz:
Which again, is just so beautiful and so profound. And like, like that is what I want really to be heard, is that you are not choosing this lifestyle because you are defective and damaged. It's complete opposite that you've done your healing. You understand who you are, your partner understands who he is, and because of that you're able to explore this lifestyle. And that is just so crucial because it it really does work to destigmatize that. This decision is not coming out of a place of trauma. It's coming out of out of a place of your truth.

 

Dr. Han Ren:
Yeah. And that's powerful. And we got to a point where we're like, okay, maybe we won't ever, you know, open up. And that's okay. Like, because we had just done so much deep relationship excavation between the two of us, and we're both feeling so much more at ease and peace with each other that like, you know, it no longer was the point even though it started the point then we still kind of ended back here. Like that just is what made everything that much more like, you know, liberating.

 

Dr. Liz:
Right? Yeah. The major takeaway being that there are so many gray areas in relationships and you are allowed to choose what is best for you and you are allowed to do what makes the most sense, you know, assuming and ensuring that you are protecting your heart in the process, you're protecting your partner's heart in the process. But you I mean, you have choices and you're not stuck within the bubble that society wants to tell us that we are so such an empowering conversation. I really appreciate you, hon. Where can people find more about you? Where are you on social media or website?

 

Dr. Han Ren:
Yeah, I'm on TikTok and Instagram as Dr. Han Ren and my website is just Dr. Han Ren dot com.

 

Dr. Liz:
Well, I really, really appreciate you being here and I am truly honored. I know I am, like I said it a million times that you would come and share this story. I mean, this is what you share today is the foundation of this podcast that we are having real conversations about relationships and we are making them relatable and normalizing them so people can feel less alone. And I am so grateful for you coming to share with us.

 

Dr. Han Ren:
Thank you so much for having me, Liz. Such an honor.

 

Dr. Liz:
Absolutely. Truly so grateful for her transparency and vulnerability today. Thank you for hanging out with me on relatable relationships, unfiltered. Make sure to subscribe to our YouTube channel and also find me on Instagram at Dr. Elizabeth Fedrick.