Relatable podcast 

Dr. Liz:
So you have a history of working for a dating app, and that's what we're going to be talking about today. Pros and Cons of Dating Apps. What are some other things that you suggest even when it comes to photos?

 

Ilana Dunn:
I think there are a lot of low effort pictures that people really don't like for women looking at pictures of men. Like I mentioned before, like gym selfies, car selfies, any type of selfie selfies.

 

Dr. Liz:
What about the fish?

 

Ilana Dunn:
Yeah, the fish picture that was coming.

 

Dr. Liz:
This is relatable. Relationships unfiltered. Hey, welcome to Relatable Relationships unfiltered. Today I'm hanging out with Elena Dan, host of Seeing Other People podcast. It seems like everybody's on the dating app these days, so a lot of nice chat about what to look out for, how to show up better, and what personally drives me crazy. Hello. I am so happy to have you come hang out with me today. We know each other from your pod and now we get to hang out at mine. I'm so excited.

 

Ilana Dunn:
I am so excited. Also, I'm obsessed with a. First of all, your studio space is stunning. And did you just get your hair done? Because it looks amazing.

 

Dr. Liz:
I did not. But thank you. I appreciate it.

 

Ilana Dunn:
Okay. Well, I need, like, whatever tips, like, whatever you're doing, I need to know because this is not so funny.

 

Dr. Liz:
When I sat down, I was asking Melissa, the producer, I was like, okay, what? Something's off. Something looks bad. And so I come back and I'm like, This is the best it's going to get. And she's like, Well, as long as it looks good to you. And I was like, No, I didn't say that.

 

Ilana Dunn:
There's a difference. Yeah, it's not always bad.

 

Dr. Liz:
So I appreciate you. Yeah, that's so funny. So you have a history of working for a dating app, and that's what we're going to be talking about today. Pros and cons of dating Apps. So tell us a little bit about your background in the dating app world from a professional versus and then we'll get into it from a personal.

 

Ilana Dunn:
yes. So I actually kind of fell into this role at Hinge, where I worked for a little over two years. Prior to that, I was working in the music business. I was having a disastrous experience in my own dating life, and I was kind of using the same skills that I ended up using at Hinge and I'm using now, which is, you know, kind of reaching audiences and creating content about a specific topic. But at the time, my dating life was in absolute shambles. And obviously, I know you talk a lot about trauma and healing from trauma. And I was at rock bottom, and part of it was from dating somebody in the music industry. So I ended up feeling like, okay, I need to get out. I need to do something completely different. Like I don't even listen to music anymore. Everything is like triggering to me about music. And I felt really lost and I ended up finding this role that hinge where the job description, like the technical skills, were everything that I was doing in music but applied to dating and my thought was, Wow, if I could use my skills to make one single person not end up feeling the way I feel right now, it would be all worth it. And I ended up getting the job and it completely changed my life and changed everything for me. And I fell in love with talking about dating and really also being open about my personal dating struggles and hearing what other people are going through because it's really hard out there. We all feel really alone and isolated, but we're all actually experiencing a lot of the same things. And the more we talk about it, the more connected we can feel, the more we can realize, okay, nothing's wrong with me. It's just really hard.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, I love that. And that is definitely you and I share that mission, that vision, that passion to really make this topic of dating and relationships relatable and normalize the the tough experiences that we're all having. And that's, you know, we all have our unique stories and we all feel like they're so different. And in a lot of ways they are. But in so many ways they are very similar and there's a lot to connect on. And so I love that that's what you use your platform for. You do a lot of reels, a lot of stuff on your social media that is just really normalizing. I love you do that. But is it the.

 

Ilana Dunn:
That you know why.

 

Dr. Liz:
Love is so funny?

 

Ilana Dunn:
Well, for for those who don't know, I have this series called Did you Know and I'll take a very simple concept and kind of just put it out there at like face value is like, did you know if they watch your story, it means absolutely nothing. And I jokingly said, I think it's scientifically proven, because when you say that people think like this grand research backed statement is coming and then you get hit with like, if they like your picture, it means nothing. Or if they didn't text you back, they might be taking a nap. And it really I just want to kind of help bring people back to Earth because sometimes when we're going through it, we get so caught up in it when it's very actually like face value, just simple and we overcomplicate it, overthink.

 

Dr. Liz:
And our attachment styles really create that for us because we don't get the text back. It's like, Who are you out there fucking? And it's like, No, I was just literally taking a nap. So there's that.

 

Ilana Dunn:
But when you have been cheated on by somebody before, it's so hard for you to believe that they're just seeking an app. And that's what I went through and that's really what brought me to where I am now.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, Yeah. So when you worked for Hinge, what was like do you feel like you came away from like with this, like behind the curtain feeling about it? Like, did it make you feel more demoralized about dating apps to actually just give you more insight? Like, what was your takeaway?

 

Ilana Dunn:
I will be completely transparent. My first year there was incredible. I had a wonderful experience, worked with so many wonderful people. My second year there, it got really dark for me and I work with people who really, like, sucked the life out of me and made me feel like I wasn't good enough and all this stuff. But at the end of the day, you know, I ended up getting let go. They I was laid off. They shut down the social team in 2020, so I lost my job and people asked me constantly after that, are you still going to use that? And my answer was, of course, just because I had a bad experience with some people doesn't mean I don't believe in the app. And even though there were some bad people that I worked with, most of the company is built by, It's a team of wonderful people who at the core, they just want to help other people find love. And that was one thing that was so cool, especially about that first year that I was there. And, you know, I'm really glad that I had that mindset and that experience of like this really is, you know, we would joke, we would have these like all hands companywide meetings at the end of every week and we would joke that we were like in the business of baby making because we would get all these success stories that we would read out to the whole company because they were so magical and it just felt really special that we were actually making that impact. But I'm very glad that I had that outlook because two months after I was let go, I was still using Hinge, and that's when I matched with Jake, who is now my fiancee.

 

Dr. Liz:
And Jake is like, we put Jake on a pedestal. I know that on your podcast we talked a lot about that in the sense that Jake really provided a lot of evidence to the contrary for you. So these beliefs that you had that had to do with your attachment style and your fears around relationships and dating and all of that, the Jake really provided you this other perspective, which I just love that because I talk to my clients so much about, like there is that person out there who is the evidence to the contrary. There is that person who can show up different just because your experiences have been negative in the past.

 

Ilana Dunn:
I love that you said that, and that reminds me of a conversation I had. I bring listeners on my podcast regularly and they come on and share their stories anonymously. And I brought this woman on who shared her story of her two back to back serious relationships where the her significant others were cheating on her the entire time. And so my question was like, you've been through that not once but twice by people who you really trusted and you know that trust was broken and then you built yourself back up and allowed yourself to trust someone again. And that trust was broken again. Like, how do you move forward? And she brought up this conversation that she's had with her therapist that I just really thought was profound, where it's like, okay, how many people that she knows have done this to her, too? How many other people are there in the world? And for her to date and just because two people did this does not mean that all of those other people are going to. Yeah. And that's what she has to remind herself of. And I think that's a really interesting way to look at it.

 

Dr. Liz:
I agree. And so powerful when we're able to use that logical self-talk to really shift that perspective and reframe and to challenge because it is so easy, we only know what we know. And so if we have this whole history or like most of our experiences, even when it is only that the couple of people are pointing us in a certain direction, it can be really hard to push back against that. And so for myself, like I, I had a lot of trauma in my upbringing and then I had an incredible partner for almost 20 years, but I chose to end that relationship. And then I had a horrible partner for a little while after that. And so like I often go back and forth between this dichotomy of like, okay, I know this exists, but I also know this exists. And so I'm constantly caught in that. And then my ex, Richard, he he's, he's always like, you're comparing everyone to me, which is like, you know, And so a lot of times people are like afraid of repeating. And I'm like, Why can't I find somebody? So I can repeat how great he was right?

 

Ilana Dunn:
Right, right. Yeah. It's so tough. It's comparing sometimes apples to apples, but also often we're comparing apples to oranges. And sometimes for the most part, we shouldn't be comparing at all.

 

Dr. Liz:
Right. So when it comes to the apps, a lot of times so like so even that example of like ending up in the same type of relationship and, you know, I talk a lot about relational programing. You and I talked about that together. And the idea is that while in a lot of ways it might be coincidental that you end up with this same type of person, in a lot of ways it really is not. And so when we think about dating apps, we think about even what to look for in the bios. Let's talk. Let's start there. Like, what are some things that you suggest people look for or maybe like could be a concern.

 

Ilana Dunn:
I think for a certain format, it's important to look for people who have actually put effort into their profile. You know, if you want if you're looking for something serious, obviously the goal is to find someone who is also looking for something serious. And if you are just matching or swiping right on people who are writing that they're overly competitive about everything and their pictures are like gym, mirror selfies, those people are not putting in thoughtful time and effort to crafting a profile that properly represents them and shares their values and what they're looking for. Yes, people will push back and be like, Well, guys don't have that many photos or they're just not good at writing profiles. Like they can take the time and put effort into it. So can women, so can anybody. So I think really looking for someone who's actually saying something about themselves in their profile is a great place to start when it comes to looking for something serious. I think there are I don't love really the Internet loves the term red flags, and sometimes I do too. But for the most part, I, I don't love that term because my red flags may be different than your red flags might be different than my best friend's red flags. But I do think some kind of general red flags in dating apps negativity, people whose problems are like the like my biggest regret downloading this stupid app or like my my dream in life like deleting this app. It's like, okay, I get it. We're all here. We don't have to like bash the fact that were on dating app are all trying to find love here. I do see a lot of negativity, but at the same time it's tough because I'll talk to people who are so wonderful and are genuine and are looking for something serious and they'll have that in their profile because they don't know any better. It's really tough.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, and I crack up at that because I do the beat, the beeline, so I'm Bumble and so like I can see the people who are liking me, right? That's how that works. And so it cracks me up in there is when they're like nobody that's really big into social media. Nobody I my handle is in my bio, by the way. So like, you can kind of see what's going on there. And so that one cracks me up always. Like if you use social media, if you're heavily into social me, I'm like, Right, did you swipe on me?

 

Ilana Dunn:
Yeah. Or people do a whole list of a thing that like things that they're not looking for. Okay, well, what about what you are looking for? But the thing about what people are looking for, people will right then this whole list of what they're looking for, it's like I want someone who's emotionally intelligent and witty and likes to be challenged and this, that and the other thing. We're all really hard on ourselves. So even if at the end of the day, we are all of those things and maybe our best friend would describe us as those things, we're not going to look at that list and say, check, check, check. Yeah, that's me. We're going to say, No, this person has really high expectations and I don't know if I'd measure up to all of that. So I'm probably not who they're looking for.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, that literally just happened to me today as I was swiping through. It was like really feminine, nurturing, kind, gentle, like all these things that I'm like, Bitch, that ain't me. So, like, you kind of left all that out. There's a good chance I would have swiped. But now you just set the bar right? Like, and here's the thing.

 

Ilana Dunn:
Maybe this person will meet you and think that you're those things, but also maybe the person they ends up meeting is not nurturing, but that doesn't mean that they're not great. I think we often get wrong what we think is right for us.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, yeah, and true. And also great point that it is so subjective. So when we put those things of all these aspects, Asians, what we're thinking that other person could be, but to your point, they might be hard on themselves. Like clearly I was today when I was like, Well, I'm not all that, so let's move it along.

 

Ilana Dunn:
And I thought you were.

 

Dr. Liz:
What are some other things that you suggest, even when it comes to photos? Like what are your feelings around? So for men like topless ones or for women like bikini ones, what are your thoughts around all of that?

 

Ilana Dunn:
Listen, I think there's a difference between a picture where you're having fun on the beach or you're at the pool, you're in the pool, whatever, and the picture is there to show off personalities to show off that, you know, you went on a hike and jumped into this lake. I think there's a difference between that. And I'm posing here. Look at how hot I am like that I don't think belongs on a dating app because guess what? You could put that out there and just all the people who are going to end up liking you, then it might just be because of that picture. They're not even looking at the rest of your profile. And maybe they're just people who are want to date somebody who's hot. They literally don't care about anything else. And sure, at the end of the day, is it validating to have all of these incoming likes because of that really hot thirst trap you put on there? Yeah, but that doesn't help you find your person. So save that for Instagram. I think there are a lot of low effort pictures that people really don't like for women looking at pictures of men like I mentioned before, like gym selfies, car selfies, any type of selfie, please.

 

Dr. Liz:
What about the fish?

 

Ilana Dunn:
Yeah, that's the fish picture you knew that was coming. Like, go take other pictures. And I say, take other pictures because I recognize not everyone has a camera roll of favorite photos of them, but everyone has the ability to say to a friend or to pay a college student 60 bucks for an hour to go with them, do a few outfit changes, take photos, doing things that you enjoy doing that tell a story. So I think it's important to, you know, take time to put effort in. You would never send out a resume or a cover letter for a job without researching the company, figuring out why you're right for this role and putting the time and effort into it. This is the same thing, but arguably way more important, you're trying to find your life partner for pictures of women. I think there's a lot of cliche pictures out there that people are very sick of seeing one popular one is a wall mural of butterfly wings standing in the middle of that. No, get that off. No, no, we don't need that. Apparently, every girl on every dating app has been to Bali and been on an elephant in Bali. Like, okay.

 

Dr. Liz:
We're laying on the infinity pool right on the edge.

 

Ilana Dunn:
ALL Yeah. Pictures where you're looking out into the distance. It doesn't show who you are. It doesn't show anything about you. I think it's so important to make sure every single picture you're using and every prompt spot you're using is telling a story and really sharing something about who you are. And so I think general rule of thumb, the first picture of you for any gender, any person, you should not have sunglasses on. It should not be too far out. You should not be with other people. It should be a nice portrait of you where somebody can easily look and just see what you look like. That's that. You should be smiling. No, like trying to be artsy or anything like that. My biggest critique for many women's profiles that I see is this. This is an Instagram profile. This is not for your dating app. You get all of these off. You're not trying to show off and have other girls think that you're cool. You're trying to share your personality. Too many group pictures just make it complicated. If you're putting emojis over people of the opposite gender or your desired gender to show like, this was like, this isn't my person or like, ignore them. Like, that's just find another picture. Don't make it hard for someone to figure out who you are, what you look like. Don't use too many filters. Just just be you.

 

Dr. Liz:
That's such a common one. That's so like my male friends who use them. That's such a common one. And then they show up to the date and it really is deceitful. Like there's no other way around that. Or if you're using one that's from a couple of years old, or maybe your weight has fluctuated like that's a really big deal that they're kept updated and not because, you know, it's not about the vanity. It's not like, well, they should like me for who I am. Well, absolutely. But also you just told them something through an image that is not actually true. And so what like what does that tell you about your character? If we really zoom out on that?

 

Ilana Dunn:
Yeah. And I'm glad you brought up the weight thing because I get questions about this a lot and my philosophy on it. And I've been someone who has had periods of life where I've gained a lot of weight and felt so uncomfortable in my skin. But I would rather put that out there and have current pictures and know that the person who has swiped right on me, who has matched with me, who has talked to me and who is going on this date with me, they already know what I currently look like. There's no surprises. They're not going to be confused. They're already looking forward to meeting me for me. So yeah, you could use pictures from four years ago, from before college, before you gained the freshman 15, the sophomore 20, whatever. But then you're going to be so stressed and self-conscious of what happens when I walk in this into the state. Are they going to be disappointed? And you want to feel confident going into a date?

 

Dr. Liz:
Absolutely. And it's just it does make it awkward and it's really unfair to that other person. Like, it's definitely we can have a lot of empathy around. If you're feeling uncomfortable, that makes sense. You don't want to put that out there. But at the same time, that other person took time out of their day to show up. And so if they're if it's not what you have presented, that's that's not okay. On the flip side of that and what I tell my clients a lot when maybe they are struggling with a weight gain, don't let that stop you. Like still go take the new pictures, you know, present in the way that you want to. You can still put on a cute outfit. You can still get ready for it, whatever that looks like. But don't let that stop you because quite honestly, it's probably not going to stop the other person. You know, there might be some people it does stop that might not be the person you want. There's a lot of people that's not going to stop.

 

Ilana Dunn:
Exactly. It's your point. I know. So many beautiful women, for example, who actually are self-conscious that people are only matching with them and going on dates because of how they look and they don't care to get to know the person. And I that's so unfortunate and so sad that they have to feel that way. And I think here's the thing. Like we're all so self-conscious. I don't know anyone, even the people on like, on social media who I see who seem like the most confident people. And I'm like, like, if only I looked like that, all my problems would be solved. Or if I looked like that, I could go on this beach vacation and not have to worry. Guess what? I become friends with some of those people and they are just as self-conscious as I am. And I think the most important thing you can do is really just be yourself and find someone who likes you for you.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah. Yeah. So let's talk about that then in terms of matching. So you've matched with somebody conversation gets started. What does that usually look like? What should we be aware of and how can we also show up better so that we're not the people to look out for?

 

Ilana Dunn:
Yes. Okay. I love this question. First and foremost, do not start a conversation just by saying hi or Hey, you know, how was your weekend?

 

Dr. Liz:
I like that one. Makes me cringe. Like, please, whoever is listening, don't start with that.

 

Ilana Dunn:
Like, I'm not going to fight you because you said more than higher. Hey. Okay. But at the same time, it's such a difficult question to create a conversation out of. And that's the problem. It's not like, it's rude or it's insensitive. Like, No, it's a normal question, but it doesn't often lead to a meaningful conversation or even a fun conversation. And I think the most important thing you can do the best practice for starting conversations is actually looking at their profile and finding something to connect with them on. And that's why I say make sure your your pictures and your prompts are telling a story, sharing your personality. I mean, I'll give the example of how my conversation with Jake got started. I had a prompt. Definitely did not make me sound cool, but it showed a lot of personality. It said, I won't shut up about my dog, Zoe, Sugar Fish, the Jonas Brothers, and whatever song I'm listening to on repeat right now. And Jake messaged me and said, I also love the Jonas Brothers. And then we had a great conversation about which was our favorite brother and what our favorite song was. And it wasn't just, Hey, how was your weekend? Because how was your weekend? You could end up going back and forth for a week when you're not like constantly responding to each other in real time. Just about how the weekend was. And then it's already the next weekend and the conversation kind of just drops off. So make sure there's something in your profile for people to connect with. Look for those types of things in their profile. Maybe they just went on a trip somewhere you're interested and maybe they talked about their running club or their softball league that they're and ask them, you know, if they've ever run a marathon or say, my God, I'm just getting into running. Do you have any tips or what position do you play in softball? How long have you been doing the league for? There's so many ways to show interest and to show, Hey, I'm actually genuinely interested in having a conversation with you. That being said, don't talk for too long on the apps because you are not here to just find somebody to text all day. You're here to match and go on a date and see if you have a connection in real life and try and remind yourself, like just a few years ago, 20, 20, even 2021, we wanted to have real life connections so badly we would have done anything to be able to go on those dates. And what matters is, is there a connection in real life? You could have the best textual chemistry with somebody, put them on a pedestal in your mind, come up with this whole story about how they're the one try their last name on for size of their first name and then get to the date and there's literally nothing there. And you just feel like you wasted so much time and got yourself so excited just to get disappointed again.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, and that is a good point. I think that those initial conversations can be really difficult. So since I mostly use Bumble, the woman has to be the one to start it. I hate that because like, I hate it in general, but I'm like, What's the difference? Because he's likely just going to empower women. Well, yes, I don't want to be empowered. I want to like your question. So yeah. So that's usually I'll like, you know, try to look through like their bio and see if there's something to start conversation on. But to your point, that's a really good way to even if they don't have anything on there, that's a really good indicator of how much even effort they've put into that. Or, you know, like if it's just pictures or it's one word answers, that's probably a good indication of how they might show up in conversation. But it is really hard. I and I want I want to talk about in a minute because I know that I am, like overly critical and I pull in all my attachment style stuff when I'm doing it. But like one word response is or not asking questions back. Like all of that is so cringeworthy and you have to wonder, like, why are you actually on here if you're not asking questions back, you're on mute.

 

Ilana Dunn:
Sorry, that's going to be my next point. And probably my most important point is you have to move the conversation forward and I have friends and I get so frustrated with them where they, like test the guy that they're talking to and they won't ask a follow up question to answer the guy's question, but then they want to see the guy continue the conversation. It's like, no, like 5050 effort. You're just trying to have a conversation. So then get to a date and whatever. Like stop if you're already playing games from the start and try to tell someone, Why are you here? Yeah, because that's not real.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah. And that's a great point. And so I think the awareness on both sides of any gender, however you guys are interacting that there has to be follow up questions responding to what has been asked and then asking a follow up question and trying to expand the conversation. Besides, how about you or asking the same question back? So I think that is super important. What are some things, though, that if we're going to talk about potential red flags that you do suggest people look for in those initial conversations?

 

Ilana Dunn:
That is a good question. I'm trying to think I mean, one of the things, patents, I know some people who will have conversations where immediately the person says, like, let's grab a drink. And to them, that's a red flag because they don't know this person yet. They want to like talk a little bit. I think the same goes for the opposite. If you're continuing to talk, continuing to talk, and they're never asking you out, what are they really here for? But at the same time, the power is equally in your hands to make that move and transition and ask about a date if anyone says anything. Actually, I'm glad you asked that. I will. Maybe once a month someone will do me a screenshot of something like incredibly inappropriate that somebody says over message. Maybe they're calling out some body feature of yours from your pictures in a first message, or they're saying something about like what they can't wait to do. And like, how like, how do I respond to this? And and for me, I just I would not I would immediately unmatched this person. I'd probably report them because that should not be happening on a dating app. But that would be an immediate okay, this is not my person and not somebody I am interested in getting to know further. So I think it's really important to know your boundaries. If something feels uncomfortable to you that's put up a boundary, you don't. No one's forcing you to see this person. You don't owe anyone anything to be a decent human if if they're not doing anything wrong and you just decide you're no longer interested, like maybe you can send them a message or whatever, but you don't owe anyone anything before you meet in person.

 

Dr. Liz:
And that goes to what you're saying about everyone having their own red flags. And you're allowed to have your own red flags. I have my client use dating apps as practice for a lot of times when they're practicing it, setting boundaries or expressing wants and needs. Like that's a really good opportunity. Like you don't know them, you don't owe them anything, as you're saying. And so that's a good opportunity to say, Hey, I'm not comfortable talking about that yet or I'm not comfortable meeting yet. We've been chatting for 3 minutes. Like that's a really good time to be doing that. But then also, if something's making you uncomfortable, remove yourself from the situation. That's also a great place to practice that.

 

Ilana Dunn:
Yeah. And I also think another thing you could do, if you're not sure about this person, you're not sure what their intentions are, you're not sure how you're feeling about the conversation. Ask them to do like a ten minute face time chat. Yeah. And if they say no, then there's your answer, because that is not a ridiculous request by any means. And I know a lot of people who have done it and have had great experiences or who have saved themselves a night of going out and meeting someone that they actually had no connection with.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, And I think going back to your other point about sometimes you feel like people are asking too soon and sometimes it takes people too long. And I think that is also subjective as well, because I know for me I get super annoyed if people ask that within the first couple sentences I'm like, No, no. I was like.

 

Ilana Dunn:
What are you trying to do? Just fill up your Thursday night? And you're like, You have someone every night of the week like, No, get to know, right?

 

Dr. Liz:
And it feels like if you think that I can drop what I'm doing to come meet you, you have no clue what my real life schedule looks like. And so it's probably not a good match. But then for Richard, right, right here, like we left dinner the other night last week and I called him like, a cup, like, I don't know, like an hour after dinner or something. And he in answer, I'm okay, whatever. So, you know, waited for him to call me back. He calls it back and he's like, I had a last minute date, like while I was in the parking lot. After dinner, I started messaging and they literally met within like 20 minutes of messaging. And I'm just like.

 

Ilana Dunn:
That's impressive. That is.

 

Dr. Liz:
So impressive. And so it never happened in my world.

 

Ilana Dunn:
I did that once. One time I matched with somebody and it was one of those times where and I think that's so fun when this happens, which is why I encourage people to not play games. Don't wait for someone. If someone waited an hour to respond, don't wait 2 hours. Just get into the conversation because that's when you really going to click. But I matched with somebody and we started getting in a conversation that morning and we were talking about like Nintendo 64 and Mario Kart and then by like 5:00 he was like, This is crazy. But any chance you're free tonight? Because we had said like, like we'll have to get in person, like challenge each other and see who wins. And he was like, Any chance of Friday night? I'm like, This is crazy. But yeah, we ended up meeting that night and we went to like a bar that we knew had Mario Kart at it and we ended up having a great time. We I think we saw each other one more time after that and then it kind of fizzled, but it was great. And that's because it flowed. Because it flowed, it made sense. It wasn't just like, let's meet up now. And I'm like, okay, sure, Stranger. Hi. It was like, okay, we there was this connection and we were trying to figure out our schedules and that night works.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, yeah. Which is like, maybe don't put so many rules on it is a good takeaway from this particular part of the conversation that it is going to be so subjective and so different for everyone. And so it doesn't have to mean it's a red flag. If someone asks you to meet up right away, doesn't mean it's a red flag if they don't. But you can just really kind of feel it out. I think that that part is hard for me. I struggle with like connecting with men in that way in general. And so the chemistry piece of it, which we could go down, yes, I'm very aware everyone who's screaming at their podcast right now, chemistry is anxiety and trauma and all of that. Yes, I'm aware. However, I do want to spark like I do want some type of like connection and like interest, and that's so hard through the chatting. Like it's especially when you start with things like how is your weekend? Like writes Please just know.

 

Ilana Dunn:
I don't even know how to answer that. In a meeting on a monday. Like, I literally have to think back to what I did and I'm like, is it weird to say this? Like, I didn't really do anything. that thing happened, but I want to get into it exactly.

 

Dr. Liz:
I worked all weekend like I do every weekend. Don't I sound really appealing to you? Right?

 

Ilana Dunn:
Like, that's not what's what you want to tell someone or what someone wants to hear?

 

Dr. Liz:
Yes, exactly. So let's talk about ghosting. So ghosting is not to abruptly transition, but let's abruptly transition. I'm so I mean, we know. We know the main actually, I want you to define ghosting. I want you to define it on a broad level, but then I want to bring it into the app.

 

Ilana Dunn:
I've never been asked to define ghosting.

 

Dr. Liz:
Well, I feel like you're the expert on all of these things.

 

Ilana Dunn:
Yeah, this I love it. Ghosting is when someone unexpectedly stops responding. Maybe you've been on a date or a few dates and you're. You feel like there's a connection or you're interested in continuing to talk and out of nowhere, over time, they kind of just disappear. Usually there's a slow fade involved where they'll start to answer fewer far between messages farther between. But ultimately it is a sign of their no longer interested. It can definitely be prevented. There is a cure for ghosting and that is open and honest communication. Did you know? It's scientifically proven that it is possible to not go somebody that's it causes a lot of pain and anxiety and confusion and frustration and it would just be solved by someone. The ghost taking 10 seconds to send a text that they're no longer interested.

 

Dr. Liz:
So do you feel like there's a certain time frame? So I may or may not. Don't judge me. I can already feel you're judging me.

 

Ilana Dunn:
Fall. I'm not. I'm not.

 

Dr. Liz:
Okay. I fall into the category of like if you are boring me, if you're not asking questions, if you you know all of those things, like, I don't feel like I owe it to you. I'm. But to be fair, I generally don't talk with anyone past, like 24, 48 hours before I feel that way.

 

Ilana Dunn:
Are you talking about just talk like on the apps you haven't met yet?

 

Dr. Liz:
Yes, absolutely. Yes. No, if I've met somebody, I. You could judge me for that because I would judge you for that. No. So I don't mean it when there has been a human connection. But let's say you are talking on the apps. What is your do you have a time frame of like when it's just like, okay, this doesn't make sense versus you owe them or should be polite?

 

Ilana Dunn:
Listen, if you're talking with somebody for like a week or more and you feel like you've really connected, like you're talking all day, every day, which you shouldn't be in the first place, but if you are, then yeah, it's the right thing to do. But I'd say, general rule of thumb, if you haven't met them, you don't owe them anything and it's a nice thing to do. But at the same time, if you talk to somebody for a day and then decide, it's also a little bit aggressive to say, I'm not interested anymore, or it's just unmatched them. I think it's very different once you meet in person. But here's what I'll say about what happens on the apps, because I think most of the time it's actually not intentional ghosting or intentional fizzling out or an end of a conversation. I think more often than not, what happens is, let's say you are to Wednesday night you on a plans, you're aimlessly scrolling your tick tock going into a black hole there then you know you got a notification from Bumble you open Bumble you look at the notification then you end up in your little feed there and you just start swiping and you're swiping and you end up spending 25 minutes swiping. Maybe you swipe right on 50 people. And then over the next few days, let's say you get ten matches out. Those ten matches, you decide to start four conversations. Out of those four conversations, two people respond immediately. The other two don't respond yet for another day or so, you have those two conversations. It starts to pick up with one of them. You get excited about that person. The other conversation you're not as invested in because already excited about person. A So it goes person to person B Then there's the other two people who are now days later responding, and then there's all of your other matches who you haven't even given the time of day to because you don't we don't have that much brain capacity. Suddenly you're planning dates with maybe with person, maybe person B, you haven't even thought about person C and D, but now you're starting to message them just in case it doesn't go well. You want to have like a fallback, but we can't maintain all of these because guess what? If it goes well with one of these people, you're going to be excited about them. You're not going to be as invested in those other conversations looking for those to turn into dates, because you're going to want this conversation with this person that you now are meeting. You're going to want that to go well, you're going to want that situation to play out. And I think that's what happens more often than not, where it's not intentional. It's not, I decided I don't like this person. I'm no longer interested in them. I looked at their profile again and now or they said this thing. And by I think it's just there's only so much we can do at one time. There's only so much our brains are capable of processing. And I don't think our brains were ever supposed to be processing all of this either.

 

Dr. Liz:
Right? Right. I agree with that. And for me, I have difficulties texting people I do care about back in a timely manner because I have my schedule set up. And so then when I have maybe multiple people messaging and no one has really actually piqued my interest, it's hard to be like, okay, it's literally like add it to the to do list. And so then that doesn't that doesn't feel appealing. But I think it gets difficult because rejection is going to feel like rejection no matter what. And so, like I have a client and he recently told me he was really upset because he had been messaging with somebody and then she just unmatched him. And so he was really in his head about like what created that. And, you know, like, couldn't she have just told me? And it's really unfortunate because either way, it's painful. But I guess my feedback to him was if she was willing to do that and by the way, and he knows a.

 

Ilana Dunn:
Person.

 

Dr. Liz:
Not she that does that. But yeah, that's not the person. That's not who you want to try to build a partnership with.

 

Ilana Dunn:
That's exactly what I say. When people come to me and say, like, this person ghosted me, how am I supposed to feel? Like, how do I move forward? Well, if this person was capable of ghosting you, that's not the same person who's capable of being in a honest, communicative relationship.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah.

 

Ilana Dunn:
Yeah. Doesn't make it hurt any less, but it's not always personal.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, and I think that that's a really important takeaway, that it's not put personal. Like sometimes people don't have the words to say or whatever the case. But yes, that is not in somebody goes to you that is not going to be the person that you are going to build a safe dynamic with probably at all or ever. So I want to hear a little bit about how your story with Jake evolve, though. So you guys started messaging about the Jonas Brothers and then where did it go from there?

 

Ilana Dunn:
Well, I won't actually back up because I think there are a few really important takeaways in mine and Jake's initial situation on Hinge that I really want people to hear. So he messaged me and said, Hey, I also love the Jonas Brothers. I didn't answer. Honest to God, I don't know why. I don't know if I didn't see it. I don't know if I was talking to someone else at the time. So I just wasn't ready to start another conversation. I don't know. He messaged me a week later and said, Hey, I figured I'd try this again, and then followed up with, How was your weekend? What it's like, because it wasn't long. You said.

 

Dr. Liz:
It's Jake, we'll let it go.

 

Ilana Dunn:
Yeah, he said the Jonas Brothers thing. So there was more context. He was just like, I may as well try again. I saw that and I responded and I said, I'm so glad you tried again. And then we got on to a great conversation. So first of all, there's literally no harm ever in following up. You have nothing to lose and everything to gain. It's not desperate, just like I said, like maybe I was busy. Maybe I didn't see it. Who the hell knows? You have nothing to lose. The stakes are so low, and thank God he sent that follow up message. Thing number two about it. I learned later that we had previously matched. So I once I started talking to him, I didn't say I like to do a little research and I texted a mutual friend. I looked him up. Facebook, found a mutual friend and texted my friend Alaina and said, like, what's this guy's deal? And she just starts cracking up and she's like, Go on a scroll up in our conversation. You asked me about this a few months ago. Jake and I had matched before and I my God, did my little Facebook search, found holiness. A mutual friend texted Helena, and it's so funny because later, actually, a few months ago, I went and I looked back at a conversation with Helena and realized we had it matched In October. When I sent for that message in October, I messaged, I texted her and said, I'm not finding anyone new that I'm interested in. So I'm looking through my old matches and I matched with this guy like five months ago, but we never talked. What's his deal? Should I message him? And so there were all of these experiences where we had matched. We it was like a miss connection type of thing where for one reason or another we just never messaged each other, never got into a conversation, never ended up on a date. And I know that happens a lot where people will match with the same people over and over and not do anything about it. Like just do something about it. You never know. So I like to give that back story because I do think it's important. But yeah, we this was pre vaccine time and I was going back and forth between my parents and the city. And so we started talking. My roommates and I at the time were like in a pod and we agreed like, we're not going to see anyone for the next like 4 to 5 weeks while we're like going back and forth to our parents were all going to see each other. So after about a week of texting, Jake asked me to get drinks or dinner and I was like, This is going to sound fake, but like, I literally can't see you for five weeks because of COVID and my parents. But I will reach back out when I can. And he thought he was never going to hear from me again. And a month later I texted him and said, All right, we're in the clear, and we ended up getting dinner. It was 20 degrees out. We were eating outside because that's all we could do. But yeah, it was it was a good date. It was fine. I didn't leave saying, my God, I'm going to die if I don't see this guy again. But I felt comfortable and it felt easy and calm and natural. And he texted me after and said I had a great time. I would love to see you again. That was such a breath of fresh air for me.

 

Dr. Liz:
To get that follow up text or the what piece of that.

 

Ilana Dunn:
To not feel anxiety about it, to not feel like, my God, I'm going to die if I don't see this person again. But then to also get that confirmation of he was like, I got to go. You're going to be great. I could do that. And so I didn't have to spend days being anxious of, okay, well, like now we're talking, but we have it planned the next day. Is there going to be a next day? I don't know. Is he texting? Just text? I don't know. You know, it was just very easy and clear and open from the start. And then our second date happened and I more of a connection this time. And I was leaving for three weeks to go see my family. And he followed up and said I had a great time. I'd love to talk while you're gone and see you when you're back. And again, didn't leave any room for me to be anxious and questioning. What's he thinking? Am I going to like it? Does he have any interest in me? And I didn't even know if I was interested in him yet. But this gave me the opportunity to just feel calm and go into it levelheaded instead of being clouded with anxiety and overthinking and three weeks later we had our third date and I had gotten my vaccine the day before. I was so sick. Like I have pictures that I sent my friends getting ready that morning, like making my arm in a sling because I couldn't move my arm. I felt so I got a fever and he was like cutting my food for me because I could only, like, use one hand putting my jacket on for me. We ended up having a great time, despite how sick I felt, and at the end of the day I was like, I'm just going to go home and watch One Tree Hill for 4 hours on the couch. You're welcome to join me. And he did. And I got home. I changed into sweat pants and a sweatshirt. Felt so comfortable, wasn't questioning, is he going to like, think I'm weird for putting on comfy clothes? I mean, not impressing him any more. Like it was just so comfortable and easy. And our whole relationship has kind of been that way. Yeah.

 

Dr. Liz:
And I think such good takeaways there. First of all, starting with that follow up text and a client ask me a couple of weeks ago, like I read somewhere, you shouldn't text like a follow up too soon. I was like, No.

 

Ilana Dunn:
Get me started.

 

Dr. Liz:
Where ever you read that, please stop reading that shit. Because that was like, if I go out with somebody, I want to know that they had a good time. I want to be acknowledged for my time. So it sounds like you agree with that. Yeah, that is like, yeah, I mean, talk about playing games or out the gate. And then the other piece of that though is like that it wasn't about the crazy butterflies or the crazy chemistry or like this. It was just feeling comfortable and it was your nervous system was at rest. And I think that that is also really important takeaway is that we often are looking for that, you know, like feeling just so head over heels right out the gate and just being like thinking about them nonstop and and, you know, kind of following up to my point earlier about the chemistry, yes, we want to feel connection, but you don't have to feel obsessive. And that's actually I mean, in both ends of the spectrum, our dysfunction. And so being aware of like you can just feel comfortable and you can have without it being one or the other.

 

Ilana Dunn:
And every single time I walked away from a date and let me tell you, as I went on so many dates, like well over like 151st dates, every single time I walked away, I actually try and figure out the number that be interesting every single time I walked away from a date thinking, my God, I'm in love. Like, my God, this is I've met my person or I'm going to die if I don't see this person again. Every single time that situation crashed and burned was so stressful. So knowing that anxiety inducing and so unhealthy.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah. Yes. So allow it to be the slow, steady burn. Allow it to feel safe and comfortable for sure. I am so grateful for you hanging out with us. I am so grateful for your knowledge, your wisdom, your insights. Where can everyone find you on all the social media as and everywhere like that?

 

Ilana Dunn:
Well, thank you so much for having me. This absolutely flew by and it was so wonderful and I'm so excited to be here. You can check out seeing other people wherever you listen to podcasts or you can follow on Instagram and seeing other people and on TikTok at Amazon.

 

Dr. Liz:
Very good. Well, thank you so much. I appreciate it. And I really think there's some great nuggets in here. So thank you.

 

Ilana Dunn:
Thank you.

 

Dr. Liz:
Thanks so much for hanging out, Ilana. I'll be sure to send a follow up text about how much I enjoyed our time together. And thank you all for hanging out. Unrelatable Relationships unfiltered. Make sure to subscribe to our YouTube channel, Sign up for my newsletter and find me on Instagram at Dr. Elizabeth Fedrick.