Relatable podcast 

Susan Guthrie:
Do you really want to be with someone who doesn't want to be with you? They want the person back, but they really want, I think is that fantasy they have of that perfect relationship or that perfect family, not the reality of it.

 

Dr. Liz:
Right. And my ex and I laughed so much because when we informed our friends that we were getting divorced and they said, What? You guys are the couple that likes each other the most out of all of us.

 

Susan Guthrie:
You guys can't make it. What the heck does that mean for us?

Dr. Liz:
This is relatable. Relationships, unfiltered. Hey, welcome to Relatable Relationships Unfiltered. Today, I'm hanging out with Susan Guthrie, retired divorce attorney and mediator. We chat about the do's and don'ts of this process and provide some insights, including from my own relatable experience with divorce. Well, hello, Susan. I am so excited to chat with you today. We were talking before we started recording that we've done a few different projects together and it's always such a pleasure to hang out with you. So I'm excited to talk about normalizing divorce today.

 

Susan Guthrie:
Me too. And I'm so glad to be back here with you. I always enjoy having a chance to talk to you.

 

Dr. Liz:
Well, thank you. Yes. So I want to talk about in when we when I came on your podcast, we talked a lot about like navigating healthy divorce and what that looks like. And then even I think when you came on and connected, we talked to a similar conversation and I definitely want to explore that, but probably a little more unfiltered as that's what we do here. But I think first and foremost, just talking through the normalizing in terms of like there is such a stigma, even 2023, there's such a stigma around divorce and what that means if you are divorced or you want to get divorced. And I think about so many clients that I sit with and you probably the same throughout your career, you just have so much shame around it. And so when they come in to first bring it up and it's like this topic that they haven't brought up to anyone, or maybe if they have, they tap dance, tiptoe around it, they don't want to talk directly about it. What do you think that's about? Like from your experience, you know, where does that kind of come from and how has it been perpetuated?

 

Susan Guthrie:
Yeah, you know, and it's something I've been in the world of divorce, I guess I'll call it, for 33 years as a professional and it's sadly one of the things that I would say has not changed much since I started practicing in 1990. The same around the stigma around that word. Divorce is still as strong today for so many people. And I really think it's the way that society chooses to. And it's not just divorce in the end of a marriage, it's how society chooses to look at the end of something. And instead of valuing what was what it what it meant while it was intact, people tend to just focus on the negative of it ending. It may not always end well. Many people behave poorly, unfortunately, when relationships and which I think is another symptom of the fact that we stigmatize it so much, people don't sit down and have mature conversations about You've been wonderful. I loved being with you, but it no longer serves me and therefore it doesn't serve you. So unfortunately, I think it is really something that we struggle with as a society, and it's not well-received for people to consider that not every relationship has to last forever to be a successful relationship.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah. And that being so important that it can still be successful even when it ends in a career was still successful. It was still a stepping stone or is still a season of your life. Or even sometimes we look at friendships or hobbies, volunteers, projects, all these different aspects of our life that we can accept maybe are not permanent. But truly, when it comes to marriage, it is so indoctrinated it and as that it should, it should last forever. I did a sex therapy in form training recently, and she was talking about how like we live so much longer and we you know, there's all these other factors. And the reason that marriage even started to begin with and there are so many factors that come into the reality that you're likely not going to want to be with somebody for 50 or 60 years. But for some reason, we can't accept that as a society.

 

Susan Guthrie:
And we don't seem to want to, which is what I wonder about when I talk on this topic. I get quite a bit of pushback. You know, I put out a lot of messaging through my social media and just I speak so often on divorce and this particular topic, and I always get pushback from people of when you talk about divorce as if it's okay, you're normalizing divorce. And that's wrong because then it means people aren't going to try as hard as they should to keep the relationship intact. And I think there's something almost punitive in that because there's a mental space that people seem to have or want to impose on others of you should just buckle down and try harder. Doesn't matter how you feel, you should just buckle down and try harder or just stick it out for the kids for because you made a commitment, because it's supposed to be forever, because this, because that and you know, I've I've, I've been through divorce myself, but I've been through it with hundreds of other people. And, you know, universally people are happier on the other side of that process as they are able to live and grow into being new, exploring new lives and new relationships. And I and I believe that's for both sides of the paradigm. It's not just the divorce seeker. It's often the person who perhaps felt abandoned and in the relationship as well will look back and say that. So it really is an unfortunate thing that we aren't able to consider that for some people, maybe a lifelong mating or whatever we want to call that is is the right thing. And for others it may not be. And that's okay.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah. Yeah. And I think that is really the operative phrase of that, is that it is okay and that it is does not mean you're defective. It does not mean there's something wrong with you because you're choosing that this is this situation is no longer working for you. And so commonly I hear. So I like that you bring up that even the person who didn't want the divorce necessarily still ends up being okay or ends up even may be better on the other side. And that's a really important point because when I talked with a lot of my clients about that, to a large extent that becomes really unfair to that other person who who wants it. It's really unfair to both of them, but for different reasons. But the person who is wanting to be in the relationship, they're not getting so often, they're not getting the love, the attention, the affection that that connection, you know, the intimacy. They're not getting any of that because the person who's wanting to leave is often so checked out, whether physically and or mentally, that it leaves them both with a lack of intimacy. But often it's so much fear that keeps people stuck. And so even, you know, with the clients that you work with what is most commonly the reason that people maybe are afraid of divorce, like what are some things that become barriers to moving forward?

 

Susan Guthrie:
That's such a good question, and I think for so many people it is, you know, at least what I've seen is that people become very invested in two things. Their version of what the relationship is, which may or may not be the full picture of what that relationship is, just as you're pointing out right there, really not in a solid relationship If the other person is checked out and they're very invested in the future, that they've that they see. And the one thing that divorce does for everybody is takes that future that you thought you had the map that you see. And it leaves sort of an open page. It's a blank page for so many people because you just don't know what the future will hold. There has to be that faith and hope that better things are coming for both of you. But that's scary. A blank page is, I think, scarier for most people than a page that's filled out with writing, even if it's not exactly maybe the novel you want to read.

 

Dr. Liz:
Right in that uncomfortable comfort zone, as I talk about so often, is, you know, described as that that place that we the environment, the relationship, whatever it is that we tend to complain about, we express discontentment around. We don't want to really necessarily be a part of it. And often, again, it's for the person who wants to leave or the person who wants to stay, but they're both not experiencing contentment in that dynamic, but they choose it anyway, and so they're not doing anything about it. So I don't want to be here, but I'm not going to do anything to change it. And it's exactly because of what you're describing. It's that fear of the unknown, because, you know, as they say, the crazy, you know, is better than the crazy that you don't. And so a lot of people maybe think that. Well, I agree. Yes.

 

Susan Guthrie:
In your field, you know. So. Yes.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yes. And I mean, you and I both know that is so not true that there are there is intimacy and connection and safety and there are relationships on the other side of it that can be self-fulfilling. But the fear is a powerful, powerful force in those those instances.

 

Susan Guthrie:
Yeah, it's I mean, fear is the number one emotion that at least as a divorce attorney and mediator that I experience in my clients. Right. They are in that that fight or flight, everything is falling apart around me. They absolutely cannot see that the blank page is an opportunity. Right. As opposed to a negative. They see a big black hole, an abyss ahead of them, of loneliness or being alone, which to them are very often the same thing. In the end, there is a lot of fear, I think, around that as well, of of being alone when someone has become very invested in being a part of a couple or a family. Right. We are, I don't know how many times you've heard it, but I know I have heard. I just don't understand. We're the perfect family. Everybody looks at us as the perfect family. We're the ones in the neighborhood or the school or the whatever that, you know, everyone is always like, you have the perfect family. How can this be happening to us? And, you know, one, is there even a perfect, you know, what's what's a perfect family or what is perfection? But, you know, I've always said to people, I've said it back way before I was a divorce attorney, but just to your friends, who's going through a breakup, Right. And they're like, no, I just want them to come back. I don't even care what they, you know, And you're like, you know, do you really want to be with someone who doesn't want to be with you? Is that truly what you want for yourself? And they want the person back, but they really want, I think, is that fantasy they have of that perfect relationship or that perfect family, not the reality of it.

 

Dr. Liz:
Right. And my ex and I laughed so much because when we informed our friends that I don't know if I've ever told you a story, we informed them that we were getting divorced and they said, What? You guys are the couple that likes each other the most out of all of us.

 

Susan Guthrie:
If you guys can't make it, what the heck does that mean for us? Yeah, it was exactly it.

 

Dr. Liz:
The looks on their face of like exactly that. Like, what does that mean for us? But, you know, and you know our story, we have a very unique divorce and we were like, yeah, you're you're right. And probably to this day we we do we like each other more than most married couples do. But I do think that our divorce probably helped with that. Like, we are able to show up for each other in a in a different way, in a way that we choose to show up for each other and to be a part of each other's life because we are family. And that was something that was so important that was not going to change for us, that we didn't have to not be a wonderful family just because we weren't married. But I also know, and I've done a couple episodes on that, of people have a really hard time accepting staying friends or staying in a relationship with their ex. And I. I'm aware that's not always possible. I don't try to pretend like that can happen for everybody, but I believe that I have more people even saw that as an option. Like just what a different world it would be. What a difference to just to just even think how much we're able to show up for each other and support each other day to day and even co-parent so effectively because we chose intentionally to remain a family. I mean, it's just such a game changer.

 

Susan Guthrie:
Well, think of the gift you're giving to anyone who's listening right now or watching right now in saying that it's an option because you're 100% correct. And this goes back to, I think, society's norms, the norm is to hate your ex. The norm is to vilify them, to blame them, and to be a victim. In many cases, they did this, I mean, as a divorce attorney, all I ever hear are stories of, you're go to a cocktail party as a divorce attorney. All you're going to hear all night long are, you're a divorce attorney. Let me tell you about my divorce. And then it will be usually 15 to 20 minutes of my ex did this and then he did this or she did that. And I just had that conversation. Not long ago. And it turned out that woman had been divorced for 27 years, 27 years, and she was still living it right. I expected it to be like last week. But, you know, you're saying that that's even a possibility is a gift to people in that then they know. And I will say I agree with you, It's it may not be the thing that happens right away. It may be something you need some time and some space. But I think the key word that you said is that you're still family and people become very focused on we're no longer family, right? You're ruining our family. I hear that very. Your dad cheated on us. US? You know, in that conversation to the children and ruined our family. And we're not family anymore.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, Yeah. And on that note, let's talk about some of these do's and don'ts, because some some ways that people can navigate. And you're right. You know, it's not always right away that people can be friends or be close and have that relationship. And it's definitely going to just depend on the circumstances. It is going to depend on betrayal and behaviors that took place throughout that process, of course. But when we really think of it as a continuum, as is anything in life, you know, it could still fall somewhere on there. But what are some common things that probably happen? Okay, let's even start from the beginning. Even the way somebody tells somebody that they want a divorce. what are some ways that are maybe less effective than others?

 

Susan Guthrie:
Well, I can tell you one that is not effective drunk, because that's that is a big no no. And I will say it is one of the most common things that I hear. I had to have a couple of drinks to get my courage up or I didn't mean to say it then, but a couple of margaritas in. I just couldn't hold it back. And that is honestly one of the the absolute worst ways to have that conversation. Just start things off. And I do want to say to talk about don'ts, starting your divorce off on the wrong foot, whether it be telling your spouse the wrong way, other things that you can do to start it off on the wrong foot. It's really one of those things that's hard to recover from because divorce tends to go downhill fast. So if you started off on the wrong foot, it it's not impossible to recover. But I would say those first moments of starting the process, be it telling your spouse or deciding who to hire on your team or whatever that might be, though, that can get out of your control very quickly unless you put some thought into it.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah. And a common thing that I see as a major don't is choosing to maybe have an affair or do something that's really painful, really hurtful, because they don't they would rather be caught doing something, a betrayal, something that would give that other person a reason to say they're leaving. Then just say they want to leave. And I will add that to our list. Along with drunk and having an affair. Two definitely ineffective methods.

 

Susan Guthrie:
Ineffective and basically setting yourself up for for a horrible transition to the next phase of all of your lives. Right. And that that unfortunately the affair is you know, I went back once and looked at the my divorce files for a year and this is probably ten years ago in my practice. But I looked at each one of the files and just made a little list. You know, there was an infidelity or betrayal or there wasn't. And 70% of the cases one of the parties had cheated. And I mean, in a sexual relationship outside the marriage, there are other kinds of infidelity that can be as devastating or even more so financial infidelity, other other ways. But, you know, that's 70% of people. And I think that that is so many people see the affair as the thing that broke the marriage. And unfortunately, the marriage was probably broken long before that. But people because it's so hard to end that relationship because of all the things we talked about at the beginning, people will just post in that I call it roommate territory, just not involved really in an and whether it be a sexual relationship or just the intimacy of true partnership, they coast in sort of that roommate space and then someone shocked when someone else finds one of them find someone else. So I see both sides of it because I've I've had clients who have been both the betrayed and the betrayer. But it's the saddest way that I see people and their marriages.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah. And when you're saying 70%, the first thing that comes to my mind is that 70% that found out or 70% that admitted or said that percentage was probably closer to 90 or, you know, it's like probably so much higher than that. And you're exactly right. That is so often what we see happen is that it feels so impossible. And again, going back to the stigma, going back to the shame that is put on it. And so because this feels too overwhelming to hurt them or, you know, and I did a post recently on Instagram and all the reasons that people do stay in very valid reasons. You know, there are there are times when it's just not possible to leave, and I definitely get that. But that is most often then when we see these other factors come into play, you know, when the intimacy is missing and really understanding that a healthy, sustainable, fulfilling relationship requires companionship and eroticism. And when one and or the other are missing, I do believe that's when the affairs start to take place, these other factors start to come in. And so the idea is like, Well, I'm just going to use this as a Band-Aid because I can't bring myself to leave. But that Band-Aid ends up like becoming this gaping hole that is, as you were saying earlier, it makes it so much harder to come back from.

 

Susan Guthrie:
Yeah, well, in you know, it's 100% right. And I've seen those instances where I've had very you know, I love your you know, the way you put this, as, you know, the eroticism as well as the companionship, because I have seen over and over couples who have the ultimate companion relationship. They absolutely love to spend time together. But the the intimate part of their relationship has has left the building for whatever reason. And in those situations, it's even more it's sadder. I mean, it's even more devastating when those end, because there is that element of a relationships still there. This is not a relationship. This is 100% dead. They have so many things that bring them together. But you're right, those two elements go together. And, you know, the other problem with affairs is, by their nature, their secrets and secrets require lying. Right. And so it's not just the fact that you slept with someone else. It's the hundred and 50 times you lied to your spouse about where you were going, what you were doing. You know, those are those things that people it's the death by a thousand cuts, Right? You know, so it's really incredibly difficult for people to come back from and, you know, as a therapist, I'm not saying anything to you that I think would be a surprise. But I wonder at least if people who were in that situation were able to be honest with their spouse about and have communication around what they felt was missing in the relationship, even if the companionship were there. But if they could have a real level of communication about that, yeah, I wonder what that would do to continue to help that relationship continue, or maybe help both of them come to the realization that it's not going to continue, but instead everybody stays quiet about that stuff. They don't want to talk about it.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, because it is it's harder to talk about, you know, how do you tell your partner I'm not physically attracted to you anymore.

 

Susan Guthrie:
Or.

 

Dr. Liz:
I don't feel chemistry with you or, you know, I don't want to be intimate. Those things that are just so hard to say and not wanting to hurt that other person. And so they end up hurting them that much worse. But thinking they're protecting them. Yeah, I mean, it definitely spirals very quickly. So what are some suggestions that you give even just like maybe a couple do's of. Yeah, I mean yes. Okay. Obviously sit down. Protected time. No one's around. Have an open, honest conversation. Is there anything that's like out of the norm that comes to mind when you talk to people about how to present this in a way that does feel as safe and respectful as possible?

 

Susan Guthrie:
Yeah, I love that question. And I'll be honest, these tips come from my phone friends, Kate Anthony, who this is kind of her wheelhouse, is helping people in that space of should I stay or should I go? And if go is the right thing, how to tell their spouse. And two things that she emphasizes that I think are really important are setting aside, as you said, that space to have this conversation, making sure it's private and all the things that it needs to be. But realizing two things. One, it is not that you're putting it out there that I think I want a divorce or I want a divorce. You have to agree with me. It's I have made the decision that I want to divorce or I'm going to get a divorce or that our marriage is no longer working for me and we need to divorce it should be not presented as a you can talk me out of this because you're really opening a door just to a conversation you don't want to have. It is not helpful. And you also have to limit that conversation because the first thing that people do when they hear they're getting a divorce is they start to spin into, well, who's going to keep the house and what are we going to do with the kids? And I can't afford to pay alimony or whatever those are. And you have to say, you know, those are really important and difficult questions and we are going to have to deal with those. But for right now, we can we can put those for another date. I just want to I want to make sure that we have some space to talk about the decision that's been made. And I think those are both such critical, critical and then the ability to separate well, the other person, give them some grace and dignity, you know, and I mean that physically, like you go somewhere else so they can have some space, so they have a little grace and dignity in allowing them to to absorb what what has just been said.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah. Yeah. To process that. So that I mean it really sounds like addressing it with healthy boundaries skills is what I'm hearing you say, because that is often and when I talk with my clients about it, you know, I've obviously had so many conversations around what does this conversation look like? And I love that suggestion. And that's exactly what I say as well, that don't open it up to negotiation. Don't open it up to allowing them to tell you all the reasons this is a horrible idea or all of those questions of what are we going to do? What about the kids? And that is just immediately going to sink in for you. That's going to exacerbate that shame and guilt that you already had to work so hard to try to get under control to even present this. So as soon as you give them an opening to shame and guilt you even more, there's a very good chance you're going to be backing out of that pretty quickly and then ending back up in the same cycle.

 

Susan Guthrie:
Yeah, and it will continue. You know, people in that moment will promise all change will go to therapy, will do, you know, whatever Doctor Liz told us to do, you know, I'll do it this time, whatever those things are. And you know that first conversation. The other thing I think people need to realize is that it's the first conversation, but it is the first of many, many conversations. It's just like when you sit down, hopefully as parents and speak to your children together and let them know what's happening with the family that you realize you don't just tell your children once that a divorce is happening and then never speak of it again. This is an ongoing conversation that we need to have, and that just goes to that core of communication. And yes, it's hard. I mean, it's it's so, so hard to talk about these things. I sit in a mediation room all the time with a couple talking about these hard things, which I would it's not therapy or even close, but there have to be elements that are similar because I've got people, you know, my yeah. And it's hard to take in but I can tell you it's in those conversations that they need to have to move through their process, that they come together, that they find the common ground and they start to lay the bricks to that path of continuing to be a restructured family like you talked about earlier.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah. Yeah. And that's such a good way to put it. That's exactly it. You are just you are restructuring what was and to what now can be and can be healthy and can be safe. I would suggest for people, you know, when kids are involved to even go to a therapist on your own leading up to it, to get some verbiage around that, and also to learn how to validate and provide empathy in those conversations, because I talk to my clients about when you talk to your kids about divorce, they're going to often they're going to have a million questions as well. It's not always appropriate or necessary to answer every question or to answer every question in detail. Yes, we need to make sure they have the information they need to feel safe and secure and stable. But when they start asking intimate questions or they start asking questions that there maybe are no answers to you, that's when the validation actually becomes most effective. Because what's going on is they're afraid, they're anxious, and that's what's coming out in those moments. And so when you can validate their feeling and their experience versus feeling, forced to answer the questions, that kind of protects you from saying something you might regret later, we're seeing something that changes and now you're just throwing them even more for a loop.

 

Susan Guthrie:
Yeah, and unfortunately, I think that happens a lot for parents. And what you're pointing out here I think is so critical is getting some support thoughts before you have that conversation with your children as you try. You know, there was just a study that came out. I can't remember where it was, but there was a poll of parents going into divorce and people they asked them, what's your biggest fear in going out of the divorce? And 100% are very, very close to it was the effect this is going to have on my children. Right. And both parents are united in that. That's that's across the board. They may not be united in how to make sure that they protect their children, but every parent wants that yet again because it's a difficult conversation. Many will just blurted out in the moment and and often overshare with their children. I've been I've acted as counsel for minor children that as a guardian ad litem in cases and it's a little heartbreaking at times what children have access to in their parents lives. I agree with you. You can't just say everything's fine. Don't worry, they're not idiots. They know something's wrong, right? You can't make them nuts by telling them. The reality is, you know, that reality is different than their perceptions. But your kids probably don't need to know that Mom cheated on me with the tennis instructor. Your tennis instructor, Right? They probably don't. Although, Mom, it's always the tennis instructor or the golf pro or the secretary or assistant, although these days it's virtual assistants. So maybe not so much anymore.

 

Dr. Liz:
So yes, that's making divorce rates go down a little bit. We switch.

 

Susan Guthrie:
To that. Yeah.

 

Dr. Liz:
So the other big factor that comes up a lot is money, right? That is often one of the biggest. Well, I still think that my ex and I would have had a very amicable divorce anyway. That was that we were blessed that we were able just we make our own money and we were able just that was easy. We you know, but that's not the case for a lot of people. And so money becomes such a source of conflict. Let's talk around like some do's and don'ts for that as well. And I guess I don't I don't even have any direction to take that. So, you know, what comes to mind for you when I say that?

 

Susan Guthrie:
Well, I think one of the first things that people need to do, because you're correct, you know, we talked about fear being the most common emotion. Fear around money for both parties is absolutely right at the top of the list. And that's whether you have a breadwinner and a stay at home parents or even often when you have two breadwinners because reality, you don't need to be a Harvard trained economist to say that one amount of income or this, you know, the amount of income that was coming into the household, split into two households now doesn't allow for the same lifestyle, but you have to be in the uber wealthy ranges for that lifestyle to absolutely not be impacted. And so people will go into divorce one without acknowledging that right thinking, well, this is your this is where false will so often come up into it because there's a mind pattern that people will go through. Well, this is your fault. You broke up the marriage, you cheated to take our thread forward. And therefore, my life in the children's lives should not have to change at all. But you should go live in a hovel, you know, under the bridge. And that's just that one. That's not a reality of how the process works. It's not good for your children to go have one of their parents living under a bridge, and it's not what will happen. But people become so very invested in that and unwilling to face that. That's not reality that they then are having to be dragged kicking and screaming through the entire divorce process, which makes every step of it harder. And that's where that conflict cycle will start.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, and I see that so often that money becomes this source of feeling justified, you know? So if they felt betrayed, then they feel like if they get more money, that's somehow going to make the betrayal less painful. Or the person who feels like they are the breadwinner, well, I'm the one who works for it. And now I'm having to give it to you without keeping in mind like, okay, well, they were taking care of your children and your home and your food and, you know, it just becomes so illogical a lot of times, but feels so it's so self-righteous on both sides. And then what we see happen is like you're saying, they start getting so emotional about it that now it turns into this divorce is lasting months or years or whatever the case, and possibly the.

 

Susan Guthrie:
Person, warts and all, that money that you're arguing over ends up with the lawyers.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, it's so interesting to me how emotional money becomes in divorce like that. Is that really what I've noticed with my clients? What it boils down to is it is so tied in with emotion. If somebody feels like they've been wronged that there has been an injustice, they fight for more money thinking that's going to make it better.

 

Susan Guthrie:
Well, it's such a good point. And I think unfortunately, it's tied into our overarching litigation and legal system as to how we treat divorce, because it's treated as a lawsuit. Right. It's treated as party versus party. B So think of a rear ender. Somebody's rear ends. You. my neck. my back. You take them to court and you've got injuries. They can't wave a magic wand and put you back in to your physical space that you were in before the accident. So what do they give you? They give you money to make you whole, to make you better to make up for the wrong. They did you. Well, our legal system takes your marital relationship and puts it in that same box. Right? That same litigation box. Right. And so it's it's actually quite logical that people start looking at divorce and wrongs that have been done them is something that need to be compensated because that's how we deal with all other. Yeah. And, you know, suits.

 

Dr. Liz:
And even from an emotional standpoint, as you're saying that, that takes me back to. So Richard and I, we went to the courthouse all three many times. We had a go to do it. We went together every time I went and had breakfast after. I mean, we're just as weird as they come. And so, like, the whole thing was I love it.

 

Susan Guthrie:
I yeah.

 

Dr. Liz:
We just did it together. But I do remember that when we had to, when we were doing the paperwork and it was like party, whatever party versus, party, you know, we were like, This is so yucky because it just then it's like, Yeah, me versus you, which we're like, No, we're like, we're in it together. We're doing it together. But you're so right. I've never thought of it from that perspective. So many or otherwise. Divorce has literally being set up as a me versus you.

 

Susan Guthrie:
Get go right from the get go. And there are states I do I want to point out four lucky people who live in a certain few states in our country. They have added a process for people who have agreements who are like you and your former spouse, who are going through that process as equals on equal footing where neither party is designate as the petitioner or the plaintiff, the defendant, the respondent. Connecticut, where I practice, is one of those states, but it's rare. And so it's an unfortunate hangover because you are a limit. You are untying a legal relationship. So there is a legal aspect to a divorce. But as you know, and I've learned in my many years of practice, there's it's so much more than an untangling of a legal relationship and the emotional aspect of it. You're you're weaponizing the entire process by turning it into a lawsuit. That's why I, you know, one of my biggest dos for anyone who's looking at divorce is to stay out of the legal system. You do not need to participate in that process at all, except to finalize the legal portion, which would be the determination of the legal status and to approve your agreement. But you can go through mediation and you can go through a collaborative process totally out of court. You can negotiate amongst yourselves at the kitchen table. You can, you know, do whatever you go to divorce attorneys, but they never go to court. They just negotiate between them on your behalf. There are a myriad of different ways to go through this that don't involve treating it like somebody did a bad job on your roof and you're trying to get them to give you your money back.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, that's such a good insight. Do you have any dues off of the top of your head for dealing with the financial? I mean, I know every situation is so unique, but let's say even when there is maybe just such a discrepancy in what you think you should get versus what they should get, and I don't really know from what angle to address this, but how do you often, you know, when you mediate and things like that, how do you help them to kind of work through that?

 

Susan Guthrie:
Yeah, there's there's two ways. And they involve bringing in people who know what they're talking about. When it comes to money. There's a professional out there, a designation called a certified divorce Financial analyst, and they are professionals who are our financial analysts who have had additional training to help people who are going with the particular issues of divorce. And I will often when we are having that those just completely imbalanced conversations around money or one of them has really unrealistic expectations. I will usually suggest either bringing in a neutral financial professional to sit with both of them and maybe have the come to Jesus. Right. Like you're living a $100,000 a year life and you're living $100,000 a year life and after tax dollars between the two of you is $75,000. So let's all get on train knowing you're going to live on less than $100,000 like sometimes it takes that sort of professional. Often it's only one of them, and it's usually the spouse who's feeling that they were betrayed or wronged. Sometimes they need an individual support person to help them understand the finances. And that's, you know, the good of plotting what they can do post-divorce with budgeting, etc.. But it's also somebody who has a reality test for them. They don't do themselves any favors when you're unrealistic and think, well, if I just go tell the judge my story, they'll see it my way and they're going to give me everything because that isn't what will happen. And so, you know, I look at every individual couple as to what support they need, but very often, yes, they do need someone beyond just their advocate whose will often advocate for what they want, not what they entitled to, and a mediator who's a neutral. Sometimes they need another step than that.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, that's great information. And yes, using your resource sources that are available to you to bring that logic, because as we are saying, it becomes so emotional. So bringing in that objective third party to bring logic to the situation and, you know, for for both sides also, again, getting the professional help that you need from a mental health professional, that is, you know, you have your feelings about being wronged and then you have your feelings with the guilt and the shame. And that's what I see happen so often, is that the person feel feeling the guilt and the shame they are struggling with maybe codependent behavior. And so they're willing to give up more than was necessary, or they're willing to let the process just continue to drag out because they don't want to say no or, you know, there's so many things that they are trying to do to protect their own shame and guilt that actually just makes the situation prolonged and that much worse. And so that I love what you're saying of bringing in professionals, you know what they're saying they're doing who don't have emotion attached to it, figure it out and move on with it.

 

Susan Guthrie:
Yeah. And I'm so glad you said that, because having a therapist, a coach, both people who can help you deal with your emotional content around it, it's making me think of the podcast episode you did on Divorce and Beyond, and you were talking about so often the wrongs we're feeling in our current relationship really have nothing to do with this relationship and stem from Dad not paying enough attention to us as children or whatever that is too. But that all comes up in this process because it's so primal right there. So it brings all of that to the forefront and everybody's triggered and you only harm yourself when you're making decisions and setting your expectations. And in moving through this process from that highly emotional place. My number one tip to anyone going through divorce is not to rush into any aspect of it, but to give yourself time to process do research. I call it the the grace of space. Don't push your spouse into running out and hiring the first attorney. Don't go out and hire the shark because you're mad. Give yourself some time to really make thoughtful decisions and probably the first person you need to talk to is the therapist and or coach. Get those emotions under control.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yes, Great, great information. And I think that that is so true. And you offer so many insights, so much valuable free information from your Instagram. That is, I've had friends go after you. We did. And then after you came on cool and connected. I've had multiple friends that are like, my God, I started following her. It's just you give so much good information. So I am very grateful for that. On that note, where can everyone find you? What is your Instagram? Your website?

 

Susan Guthrie:
Absolutely. So the podcast is divorce and beyond. You can find it on all channels. Then on Instagram, it's Susan Guthrie, Eskew and divorce and beyond. So it's both there and it's divorce beyond podcast. And thank you. And I have to tell you, same thing about your Instagram. I've been following you. That's how I found you originally, as I saw your fabulous Instagram and your posts are just so much great information in there. So I love that your friends will admit they're following a divorce attorney because most people are like, No, I don't want that in my feed.

 

Dr. Liz:
Well, I love it when there's good information out there. Yes, I guess that's good to go seek it out. But yeah, that's so funny. That actually makes sense. Like, I bet you have a lot of people consuming your content that don't follow you. That would probably make a lot of sense, right? Like, well.

 

Susan Guthrie:
People get yeah, people get very caught up in the it's like the old days that the same cocktail parties you'd hand your card to someone and they'd be like, no, I'm not taking that home. You know, family and family and divorce law or whatever on the card. So yeah, that's why I have the one account that Susan Guthrie asked and doesn't really say anything that I is divorce related, but divorce and beyond, you know, about my podcast is I do have a lot of divorce related information, but my goal is to really delve into the beyond and to the emotion and to the really deeper part of this. The divorce itself is that finite little period of time in your life. You will get through that, but your life after I mean, look, think about your life after. I know my life after. And I want that for everyone.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah. And I love that. I love and also how your content is so relatable as well. So give her a follow. Go check out her podcast. And Susan, thank you so much for hanging out. I really appreciate your time, your knowledge, your insights. You are just such a pleasure to be with. So thank.

 

Susan Guthrie:
You. Thank you. Thank you for having me.

 

Dr. Liz:
Thank you, Susan, for hanging out with me today and for helping to normalize divorce. And thank you all for hanging out on relatable relationships unfiltered. Make sure to subscribe to our YouTube channel, Sign up for my newsletter and find me on Instagram at Dr. Elizabeth Fedrick.