Relatable podcast 

Dr. Liz:
Have you noticed that, like people in toxic relationships really do have like pretty steamy erotic sex?

 

Whitni Miller:
I see. That. And I think it's because they're starving in all the other categories. They're so hungry that they'll take those crumbs. They'll just scarf them all because there's just so much missing elsewhere. So they take like the proximity of skin being together as closeness, because that's the only closeness they can get because it's not happening any other way.

 

Dr. Liz:
I think that that's exactly it. That's often the only time that there is maybe not fight. Well, that's not even true. Maybe sometimes you're fighting. You're still fucking like, I don't.

 

Whitni Miller:
Know, whatever.

 

Dr. Liz:
This is relatable relationships, unfiltered. Hey, welcome to Relatable relationships unfiltered. Today I'm hanging out with Whitni Miller, sex educator and pleasure coach. We talk all about the five types of intimacy and foreplay, and we get candid about our personal favorites. Okay, Whitney, Well, I have got you here finally to chat with you. And I am so excited about this We were just talking about before we started recording, we connected over my intimacy well that I had posted months ago, and you did a really cool TikTok video on it. So thank you for being here. It's such an honor to have you.

 

Whitni Miller:
Thank you for having me here. I was so excited to meet you and to be here. This is. Awesome.

 

Dr. Liz:
And your content on intimacy and on connection and not just on the types of intimacy, but you. I repost your stuff sometimes about even how to show up, say for your partner and what that means for intimacy and how to create that connection. And so I want to start by talking about those five types of intimacy that we connected over, and then we'll kind of go from there. So let's start with, well, why don't you pick where where do you want to start? What's most.

 

Whitni Miller:
Comfortable? Start with, man, I. Love the one about experiential intimacy, like having sex with your partner, I think as well. And people kind of especially in long term relationships, it feels like that kind of fizzles out.

 

Dr. Liz:
Right. And the novelty of that is so important. And I think that that that's one of my favorite types of intimacy as well. My favorite types of foreplay is that the adventure, the going on journeys together and trying new things. What are some of the things that you, you and your partner like to do when it comes to the experiential foreplay?

 

Whitni Miller:
my gosh, we're into food. We're like big foodies. So anytime we can go somewhere, eat something new and just like next to each other, it makes her later. Exactly. Do you guys.

 

Dr. Liz:
Like, get your own meals? Do you share? Like when you go together, do you have to share? What do you.

 

Whitni Miller:
Do? We always order. Something different so you can eat off each other's plate. Yeah. So it's always like, what's the thing that you want to get? And then, okay, I'll get the second thing that we wanted to get. And that way we get to try the. Whole exactly same.

 

Dr. Liz:
And then when it comes to even trying new activities, so whether it's traveling together or just going somewhere or you know that you've never been. But I do agree that the novelty piece of that is such a crucial part of intimacy and connection. So when you're keeping that dopamine.

 

Whitni Miller:
Flowing.

 

Dr. Liz:
That is so crucial.

 

Whitni Miller:
That's the word.

 

Dr. Liz:
What about emotional intimacy? How would you define that?

 

Whitni Miller:
my gosh. Emotional intimacy. That's like showing courage. You know, when you're going to be vulnerable with somebody, you're showing them that you have courage. And courage creates consistency and consistency creates trust. So if you're willing to open up your chest and be openly emotional with someone, then you're starting to create trust in there. We got safety. And once we're safe, then we can really get turned on.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah. Yes, I agree. And that really is, I think the foundation of any of these types of intimacy is the safety when we can feel safe just to be in each other's presence. There's so many relationships. I don't know if you have any personal experience with like the toxic Cycle or in your past relationships of just a lack of safety. Can you relate to that?

 

Whitni Miller:
Yeah, I mean, I think it's where. It just felt like there's no way, there's a way, and then I just don't want to take off my clothes with that person and be vulnerable with them because it's like, man, it's not safe here. Like, it's this conversation with you. Yeah. Going against yours. Like, have you had experiences like that?

 

Dr. Liz:
No, absolutely. And I think that that the, you know, toxic cycle that I referenced quite a bit. I it is it's like the polar opposite of intimacy it is creates such a guarded ness and such a disconnect that you don't know what to expect. You're on eggshells. You know, like at any minute things can just blow up and I agree wholeheartedly with what you're saying. It's hard to have intimacy, physical intimacy, intimacy, sexual intimacy when that's the case, however. On that note, have you noticed that, like people in toxic relationships really do have like pretty steamy, erotic sex?

 

Whitni Miller:
I see. That. And I think it's because they're starving and all the other categories, they're so hungry that they'll take those crumbs. They'll just starve them all because there's just so much missing elsewhere. So they take like the proximity of skin being together as closeness, because that's the only closeness they can get because it's not happening any other way.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, Yeah. And I agree. I think it does tie in to that intermittent reward system. The way that I describe it, when it's super spicy and almost addictive when you're in a toxic relationship, I think that that's exactly it. That's often the only time that there is maybe not fight. Well, that's not even true. Maybe sometimes you're fighting. You're still fucking like, I don't.

 

Whitni Miller:
Know, whatever.

 

Dr. Liz:
But I think you're right. It is like the only time when there is that skin to skin that there is the closeness. And so it's perceived as closeness. When it's really just sex. It's really just fucking.

 

Whitni Miller:
It really is. I mean, do you feel like that it's part of that runner chase or dynamic like that classic like anxious avoid it Chase back and forth.

 

Dr. Liz:
Absolutely. Which is where we see a lot of those breadcrumbs come in with the anxious void in dance. And we also see the toxic cycle I think is really wrapped up in the anxious, avoidant dynamic when that anxious, avoidant dynamic is done correctly and when you're aware of the strengths of it and aware of how to really tap into what can go well with those type of attachment styles, it's a different story. But when you both are operating protectively, I think that's when that happens.

 

Whitni Miller:
my gosh, that's such a scary going because it's such a beautiful point because we can work from those insecure attachment places if we're aware of what's happening. Like you don't have to stay there. You can use your awareness to notice what is happening and communicate from those points. And that can be your emotional intimacy is like, I'm scared. This is triggering my abandonment and like sharing your interior world, which is the true intimacy.

 

Dr. Liz:
I love that. Such a good point. When we can be vulnerable, that is a big aspect of this emotional intimacy. And you're right, when we talk about our insecure attachment styles, that's a big part of that. Like to allow someone to see that side of you.

 

Whitni Miller:
gosh, that's like, it's you. So it's almost that thin line of like fear and excitement. And then, gosh, the heightened states of arousal that you can get from that level of vulnerability.

 

Dr. Liz:
It's while Yeah, yeah. When when somebody can show up for you safe in those situations.

 

Whitni Miller:
Absolutely right. It's just like feeling super safe with somebody. So it's just like that vulnerability almost feels high.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yes. And it's so interesting because I've had so I was married for 17 years and I've been divorced for about three and a half. He's still a very important person to me. And we had so we have so much safety. And that was never like a big concern. It was more the chemistry piece that that we you know, there's lots of contextual stuff there, but that was not the issue. But then when I had my first relationship out of being divorced was with somebody who there was a lot of chemistry but a lot of chaos. And so it was a lot of toxicity was wrapped up in that. And so it was like all of a sudden I had this really like high high, but also these really fucking low lows that it was not the high, high was not worth it.And then I've been dating somebody the past few months where it's this balance of it, like we still have conflict with like that. All still exists for sure, but his ability to hold space for me and be safe and for us to still have chemistry and that sexual connection and attraction. Yeah, that's been a bit of a wild experience.

 

Whitni Miller:
Would you mind.

 

Dr. Liz:
That your partner a lot and I think you can relate to that.

 

Whitni Miller:
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I love the consistency and the stability. Like I know some people, they fear that like, isn't that going to get boring? And I'm like, Whoa, it's we can go so much deeper because it's so safe. There is almost, you know, just infinite how deep we can go because there's so many, like safety nets there, like she's going to catch me. So if we if we're really high, I know I'm not going to hit the ground on a low.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, that's, that's a really good point. And then also that boring piece, which is a really common question, but because you're you can go so much deeper, you're talking about so much more, you're doing so much more, you're exploring so much more.

 

Whitni Miller:
Yes. And you're growing and that's what's really exciting is watching yourself grow. Because that's the thing about humans. Like we're driven for attachment. So a lot of our healing happens in these relationships, whether they're friendship or romantic or sexual or whatever, is that there's this like weird thing that people think. Some people think that you should heal, do all your healing before relationship, and it's like, Honey. Yeah, that's healing that way. So like.

 

Dr. Liz:
How did you do your healing, though, to find this safe partner that you currently have? So if you went through these toxic cycles and then now you guys have so much safety, well, what did go on for you in order to find that?

 

Whitni Miller:
Yeah. So I was with my son's father for ten years. So there was that relationship that taught me a lot, taught me how gay I am. And, and then. I started dating after that. And those relationships that just like, I don't want to say that they weren't enough. They just weren't for me. They sharpened me. I got more specific the more I dated and was like this This isn't quite right. It's kind of like the three bears in the porridge. Like this was a little cold, this one's too hot. And just trying to find the one that was just right was about me having a tolerance for uncomfortable conversations like I heard someone say that they were like, Your ability to find satisfying relationships is directly correlated to your tolerance for uncomfortable conversations. Interesting that hit me big time, because I see that, like, I have those conversations that feel awkward and they make me feel like you get that fear of rejection because you're putting your wants and your desires on the table in front of somebody. And you're asking that person like, Do you want to do this with me? And you wait and you're like, Got your heart is out there and it's exhilarating and it's scary. But like, that's the only way I feel like you can get what you want is to be very sharp and specific.

 

Dr. Liz:
Right there in those hard conversations. Even just even last night, I'm like, and as a relationship expert and then I'm like, What the fuck is your problem? That you can't have hard conversations? And like, so he and I were having a conversation last night and like, he just needed me to be safe. But then I got triggered, so then I couldn't, you know, and it's like we're able to identify like, okay, this is just a hard conversation. Like, we can have hard conversations. But even my point being, no matter how long you do the work, no matter how much healing you do, no matter how much knowledge you have, hard conversations are.

 

Whitni Miller:
Hard. They are. Do you ever catch yourself like when you're coaching a client or when you're with someone, you hear yourself and you're like, Maybe I should apply that?

 

Dr. Liz:
What I'm saying, my God, all the time. And I think that's like his favorite thing when I'm like, I was working with this client on his were you okay?

 

Whitni Miller:
Tell me more about that. How you would help this one.

 

Dr. Liz:
I think that some of my best insights for myself comes through that, you know, because I'm able to remove myself from it. And so help them to process through. But I see so many similarities that I'm like, shit. yeah, okay. I guess I should probably apply that too. There's a lot of my own healing that comes from that for sure. What about for you?

 

Whitni Miller:
my gosh, I love my client relations because it's like holding up a mirror for myself. I feel like if you're going to coach, then you have to be doing the same thing. Like you have to be living the life that you're trying to coach people toward because otherwise, what are you talking about? You know, you read them a book you have to like have that experientially intimacy with this work. Yeah.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yes. And then also having grace, though, for yourself that yes, you do need to be doing the work and you do need to have self awareness and you need to be able to identify where your areas of growth are. And you still have trauma and you still have trauma triggers and you still have an insecure attachment and all of that.

 

Whitni Miller:
Absolutely going to make mistakes. Go series of grace. We're humans fallible.

 

Dr. Liz:
Absolutely. Okay, let's talk about the nexus. Let's see. We did experiential. We did emotional, intellectual. Intellectual foreplay is my that's my jam.

 

Whitni Miller:
Well, my favorite. And I'm going to have to find that brain all touch. Yes, that's slightly that's what I.

 

Dr. Liz:
Would in some ways. You describe intellectual foreplay.

 

Whitni Miller:
my God. Intimacy. My partner and I love to read the same book. Like, I'll be like, Babe, I'm reading this and do you want to read it with me? And she's like, Yeah. So we started getting into BDSM. So we started reading like the new topping book by Janet Hardy and Darcy Easton, and she was reading the bottoming book and she would like highlight and we would call each other and like discuss these ideas and like the energy that's created by that. And I would get so hot for her just the way that she could dig deep into this stuff, like way past the surface and get underneath to like the emotional intimacy this created by doing these trust exercises and like on consent and like enthusiastic consent collaborating together to create heightened states of arousal. I was just like, This is the one right here. This one did it.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah. And that intellectual foreplay, that intellectual intimacy, that being the connection through these deep conversations, through learning, through teaching each other things and yeah that is the Sabio sexual thing is no joke, I will tell you that right?

 

Whitni Miller:
You're sure when you. Like, teach you something and it just you're like goose bumps.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yes. Or even just talking about like, what? Their act. You know what? They're an expert in or what they just talking about their own stuff. But you're like just learning as you're listening to them talk. And it's like, why are you so smart and so sexy? And please just take me because.

 

Whitni Miller:
Like, you're really passionate. About something in there. All this is going on. It's just like, all right. Yes, right.

 

Dr. Liz:
So for me, it's like museums go, you know, art museums or, you know, anything like that. Going to. Yeah, places where you can learn and experience. It's just which ties into the experiential. But I think it's also about, like you're saying, being able to dig deeper into it and so like so he and I will love to go to a museum and then maybe go have lunch or something like that after and dissect all of that. And it's that is by far my favorite thing ever.

 

Whitni Miller:
my gosh. Like listen to someone's interpretation. Like if you both looked at the same thing and then go, Right. What were your feelings and thoughts about that?

 

Dr. Liz:
So that is.

 

Whitni Miller:
It. Yes.

 

Dr. Liz:
Okay. Spiritual, spiritual intimacy.

 

Whitni Miller:
Yeah. So that one was easy for me and my partner. We're both yoga practitioners. We've both been doing that for I've been doing it for seven years and she's been doing it for about five. And we take it deeper than like the physical practice on the mat. Like it's very much meditation and pranayama and like what we find inside of ourselves and then seeming to share that. Like last week I was struggling with anxiety and I was like, I'm going to have to reintroduce my meditation because I feel like that negative default in my brain is taking over. You know, I'm kind of a slave to it. At this point instead of it working for me. And she's really encouraging and supportive of that. And then I can just come to her and talk to her about what I experience in meditation. And she does that with me or what she experienced on the mat. When we do physical practice, we both do hot yoga, you know, like sweat and that need to like, dive really deep inside because 105 degree room. Right? So I love sharing that passion.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah. That and that the meditation the that the soul connection really. But also a lot of people you know even if it's more religious based versus spirituality, like still finding connections through prayer, through Bible reading together really when like I get I mean, that's really it. Like when your souls are doing a dance together, I think that's a big piece of the spiritual.

 

Whitni Miller:
Yeah. That's so deep, because then it's just like two bodies in one mind at that point. It's very heady stuff. What about.

 

Dr. Liz:
So tantric.

 

Whitni Miller:
Sex, right? That's. Did do you practice?

 

Dr. Liz:
Wait, am I allowed to ask that.

 

Whitni Miller:
That ideally I can dig in? Yes, I know. Tantra to me is like the Buddhist practice as a whole. So we practice this kind of mindfulness. But yeah, I feel like definitely we're incorporating like tantric practices, like we breathe together and do gazing and things like that to ramp up the connection and bring this present. You know, arousal works best when you're present to the moment. So right when you're drifting above your self judging kind of.

 

Dr. Liz:
Can can you break down what that like kind of explain what that is I guess for me as well Hold that for, you know, people listening. What exactly is that practice and how does it usually work.

 

Whitni Miller:
About like the engaging and the breathing together practice.

 

Dr. Liz:
For the tantra in general? Like, what does that even mean? What's it about? How is it practice?

 

Whitni Miller:
I guess. So. Tantra is a is a Buddhist practice. So it's a philosophies. An entire philosophy is hard to break down. But basically what it is is much like yoga, the word yoga, Sanskrit for union. So you're trying to find the oneness of everything. Everything is one is coming out of the singularity and you come back home to the point of like, I'm no different than that blade of grass out there. Like it's all just living in or connected to it. So it's very huge spiritual practice, but there are six practices that come out of it which are which are great, and that comes from like in the yogic system, tantra kind of forked off because there's a lot of nonsense in renunciation where people are like saying that celibacy was like the path to one and like torture was kind. Now, now we don't have to do that. But they are very big on consent. So certain tantric practices talk about like how children are deepest karma. So when you go to make a child, you do it very intentionally. And no, like, like a person with a penis is to answer a person with a vagina without the person with the vagina inviting them in. So they're actually part of the practice will be to grab the details and gently guide it into the yoni like you were invited into your and I will.

 

Dr. Liz:
And so it's it's empowerment then it's really it's safety.

 

Whitni Miller:
Yes a lot of consent safety, empowerment. And we present with teaching.

 

Dr. Liz:
And when you're talking about the eye gazing or and what was the other one that said.

 

Whitni Miller:
Breathing together. So there's different breath practices. Okay. So sometimes we'll do like circular breathing. You sit in front of each other and you match, inhale and exhale, and then and a point one of you will exhale and one holds the breath. And then when the other person inhales, then you exhale. So now you're like, sharing a breath because you're in different times. So that's great because it gets you locked into your partner's breath rate, which is something you should always pay attention to.

Like when you're having intimacy together because this tells you how fast, how slow, when they like something when they didn't. You can tell by the way somebody is breathing.

 

Dr. Liz:
So is that often something that takes place like almost like a meditative practice leading into sexual intimacy or that's something that takes place during or what? How does that I mean, obviously probably unique for everyone.

 

Whitni Miller:
But yeah. It can be utilized before, during and after. So it can be a part of your aftercare is like co regulating and breathing together. That can be really helpful for people especially if they have those orgasms where they cry and sometimes it's startling to people and you be grounded, but we like to use it before is like part of foreplay. Just like coming present with one another before we get started. And then I just make it an anchoring practice during sex to pay attention to my partner's breath.

 

Dr. Liz:
Okay. Yeah, that's that's really beautiful. With when you're working with clients and you're introducing this idea, do you have people who say like, my God, that's just too awkward? There's no way I could absolutely him.

 

Whitni Miller:
Okay, Cause.

 

Dr. Liz:
I'm just picturing, like, we're just so silly and, like, laughing about everything all the time. And so to think being so serious, but it is such a beautiful practice. How do you get people to get to warm up to it?

 

Whitni Miller:
You know, I encourage them to be silly. I'm like, if you need to laugh about it, like, laugh about it, like be silly, like sex should be playful, it should be polite and just allow it to be silly until it's not. You know, some things are funny until it's too hot for them to be funny. And I really should not so any more playful. You get into that and it's just you need to laugh about it or be silly. Do That is how I instruct people. Like when they're putting a strap on for the first time, it's no different because they feel really silly with like this big dildo hanging off the front of them. So I'm like, Do the helicopter swing that thing around. The table. A little bit. It's funny. And so you take pride in that thing.

 

Dr. Liz:
That's that's a great suggestion, though. I mean, I'm thinking even when I'm teaching clients new communication skills and teaching somebody how to use the validating statements, as silly as that might sound, is really awkward for a lot of people. They're like, That sounds so corny, that sounds so cheesy. And so I say the same thing, then laugh about it, tease each other, and that's yeah. And then it starts to become more comfortable.

 

Whitni Miller:
Do you feel like that's like a self-aware thing that makes them kind of deflect that self validation work?

 

Dr. Liz:
I think it's a self judgment thing because I even think about a lot of the like if I'm worried that my partner might judge me or think that I look stupid or silly about something, even I identify as a really confident person and there's a lot of people that I don't give a shit what you think when it comes to my partner. I do care. Like I notice that I'll get a lot more insecure about things that normally I wouldn't even think about. And so I think that that's probably what happens for a lot of people that it's like, you know, if they're just with a group of their friends or even you and I both know the shit we post on social media, like you've got to have some level of confidence to put some of that stuff out there. But then when it's just the one on one intimacy, I'm like, can be kind of shy.

 

Whitni Miller:
Yes, there is more. Pressure when it's just you and one other. Person, right? about me.

 

Dr. Liz:
Right, exactly. So, yeah, I do think that has to do with like the self judgment piece. What do you think when it comes to that?

 

Whitni Miller:
I just every it's almost every time I'm working with a client, we're working with some people pleasing tendencies and there's just a lot of self worth things that come up. And I feel like sex is that conversation where you're asking for what you want and you're asking the person you want it from and boy, that just makes it really awkward. Like, yeah, because people love to talk about sex, you know, you talk to them, they're always hungry, like foaming at the mouth, ready to talk about it, but they don't want to talk about it to the person that they're going to have it with. That's like the. Last. Person they want to. Talk to about.

 

Dr. Liz:
That is exactly. And I talk about that all of the time. When I'm clients will come in and tell me everything and tell it right. But then when you tell them to talk to each other about it, more changes. What do you think that's about?

 

Whitni Miller:
I just feel like it comes back to that. Like you talking about self judgment and self-worth. Like they start to ask themselves internally, Do I deserve this thing? And then they take it when someone tells them, No, I don't want to do that, then they internalize it as well. I didn't deserve it because they said no. And I'm always like, No, just means not here is not rejection is redirection. So it's like maybe you want to find a compromise that feels like growth between you, but like also maybe if that thing means a lot to you, you still deserve it.

 

Dr. Liz:
So then at that point it kind of becomes this acceptance or change so they can accept that their partner is saying no to that. And so what does that mean for them? Or if it's something that they still want and desire, what does that look like of how they go find it?

 

Whitni Miller:
Right. Because that, you know, that's that's the kicker is like you still deserve this thing. So how much does it mean to you and what do you want to do with this information that you got through this conversation? That's something I say to clients a lot. Like, what do you want to do with this information?

 

Dr. Liz:
Well, that's a, that's a deep thought. Yeah. Because they are empowered to decide that circle of control.

 

Whitni Miller:
Like, really. Get your life here. Yeah.

 

Dr. Liz:
So let's talk about physical intimacy then.

 

Whitni Miller:
And what I.

 

Dr. Liz:
Notice after I, maybe I'm going to have to do a modification to that. So I notice like, I kind of combine sexual intimacy. That's probably the missing one. I guess if I were to redo the wheel would be that sexual intimacy being its own thing versus I tied it in to physical, which there's an argument for both sides. But how would you describe physical intimacy?

 

Whitni Miller:
I love touch. I love to reach out and touch my partner all the time. Like she'll be passing me in the kitchen and I'll reach out and just like, touch her really softly. Just be like, I see you there. I just want to make contact with you. We're very big on cuddling, holding hands, forehead kisses. She calls an eye socket kisses, but it's eyelid kisses. She'll say, I want eye socket kisses. Feel like butterfly kisses. You need. To press my lips into her eyelid and like, push in a little. Bit. And so it does kind of become an eye socket kiss. But that's, you know, it is precious. And I love it. And like, if we were only having sex and I couldn't do eyelid kisses and little touches in the kitchen anymore, I would just feel really big gap in my relationship.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yes. So physical intimacy really being anything from the nurturing touch all the way.

 

Whitni Miller:
To.

 

Dr. Liz:
The sexual.

 

Whitni Miller:
Yeah.

 

Dr. Liz:
Whatever that is, the sexual intimacy piece of that. But yes, I agree. And that I think what often gets missed in a lot of relationships is the physical and the physical foreplay. I guess across the board. That means that it's happening all day, that we're building tension all day leading up to it. And I think that that a lot of people are only touching, you know, they're doing the awkward like reach out with to the leg under the blankets at night or, you know, they're doing the awkward leg. That's the only time you're touching, trying to initiate. And it's like.

 

Whitni Miller:
You know, and then you get people who are now doing What is it, Vanessa calls it the the bristle, because now your partner is like perceiving every touch as you want to initiate sex because this is the only time you touch me.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yes. And that's exact. I was just working with a couple recently on that of how can we how can we break that? And so for them, it was really communicating that, okay, I want to cuddle, but that's all I want to do is I want to cuddle or I want to hold hands. But that's, you know, and so it was really creating communication around, I want to touch you more, but I don't want all those expectations that come along with it all of the time.

 

Whitni Miller:
Absolutely. You know, because then we start doing that thing where we don't go to bed at the same time because, yes, they're going to start that thing. So I need to go to bed after they're already asleep and then. not a pillow. It's all of such a thing. You do. It is. The thing. Are they even sleeping in separate bedrooms? And then I've had clients who go spend the night at friends houses for weekends a time. I'm like, just talk about the thing. Like, speak it. The elephants in the room. Talk about it.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah. And the other piece of physical intimacy that I don't think is talked about enough, which I know you'll be happy to dive in with. Dave in this with me is two things. So first of all, self-care, like physical self-care when it comes to being attractive to your partner. So like just because you're in a committed relationship does not mean your partner has an obligation to find you attractive or sexy, especially if if you're not putting any efforts into that. So let's start with that. Like, what are your thoughts around that?

 

Whitni Miller:
you know. My partner is the most attractive to me after we have like, either like deep emotional intimacy or we very have experiential intimacy. So it's like, yeah, I love to see her taking care of herself. But the thing I love most is to see her feeling herself. So it's like, yeah, if you're not taking care of yourself internally, there's kind of like a shutdown and it's like you start feeling negative about yourself, it starts showing up on the surface. So it's like an inside thing that really needs to be addressed that makes your outside appearance better. So it's that lift and like, so whatever my partner needs to do to be like, I'm a bad bitch, you know, feeling like she's mad, bitch. And the more I'm here to support that, if it's a face mask or if it's going to see a therapist, let's do that. Like everything in between.

 

Dr. Liz:
I completely agree. I do. I do think it impacts in an individual how they feel about themselves and then how they feel about themselves. I mean, how many times have you heard, well, I don't want to have sex anymore because I gained weight or I don't want to have sex anymore because X, Y, and Z where their partners like, no, that's that's not.

 

Whitni Miller:
I don't have sex with you.

 

Dr. Liz:
But I really do think the lack of self-care impacts self esteem. But then also I think about it from the lens, which is probably very controversial. So it is what it is. But if you get in a relationship with somebody and they look a certain way or they and then all of a sudden they just don't even care about those things, I mean, this could even come down, which is what we're going to head into. Let's actually head into this next part. So hygiene.

 

Whitni Miller:
Yes. Let's talk about how do you eat because there's another.

 

Dr. Liz:
Aspect that comes up a lot. You all can't just be splashing some water down there.

 

Whitni Miller:
That somebody no check. That's what I do. If my partner is about to go down on me, I reach down and do a little swipe and I'm like, I just do it right in front of her. I'm like, I'm just going to check it. I'm like, and see if I would eat it. And if I would eat it, I would let her eat it.

 

Dr. Liz:
And if not, then you're like, Let me go take a quick shower.

 

Whitni Miller:
I just say that like, I'm going to go wash. Like if you want to go do that, I'm like, I wouldn't eat that. I'm going to go.

 

Dr. Liz:
Which is also, I believe it, which again, I know people have different preferences because there's plenty of people that are like, I don't they don't care. And I think that's fine. I think day to day hygiene, though, probably needs to be maybe attended to a little more than it.

 

Whitni Miller:
Is, right? Well, I mean, the main thing about self-care is you're doing it to communicate to yourself that you care about yourself. So if you don't care about yourself, it's hard for you to feel sexy. Yeah, it's just.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah. Yeah. And I think also then having the expectation and I think so whether it's the hygiene or it's the physical self care or just the emotional self care, I think the expectation of my, my partner should just love me just, just the way I am, no matter what. I'm going to say yes and I'm going to say yes. They should love you the way you are. Yeah. And you should want to be your best self or your partner. And so that does require self-care.

 

Whitni Miller:
Yeah. I mean, there's like, there's self maintenance and there's there's the self care and like, you need to care about yourself. Like, that's what gets you out of that. Like having body image issues to the point that you're shutting your own arousal off kind of thing. And it's like at the end of day, love's a verb. So it's expressed through effort. It's something you do. It's not a noun, it's not a feeling, it's an action.

 

Dr. Liz:
Which also means that, yeah, how can you take care of yourself? How can you put it work towards personal improvement? How can you show up your best self for your partner? But as you bring up the term or the word arousal, let's talk about that as well.

 

Whitni Miller:
What is the.

 

Dr. Liz:
Difference between desire and arousal? How do you how do you describe that?

 

Whitni Miller:
The way I describe that to clients is like desire is the mental want. So mentally you're like, I want to have sex. And it may just be like, I want to masturbate. So it could be want to masturbate or I want to have sex with a person. And then arousal is the issue in your body, your physical feeling of being turned on. And I mean there can be arousal, non concordance where you feel turned on in your mind, but your body's not getting the message around is usually the felt experience in the body being like horny. That's usually the word that people can understand in the general population. yeah, I know what you mean.

 

Dr. Liz:
Now, how do you help people who struggle to feel horny? How do you.

 

Whitni Miller:
Help people.

 

Dr. Liz:
To increase that arousal?

 

Whitni Miller:
yeah. So that's usually a mind body disconnect. So then I ask them questions like you are you aware of your body? Does your body feel like a safe place to be? Is usually like the top questions like use your body. So like a safe place to be because if they're like no, then it's a slow trek to get from because they're usually like in their cognitive space. These live in their head. It's a survival mechanism. So usually there's trauma behind there. So we want to be slow and gentle and easy as we walk them from their brain back down to their body. Because if you've been ignoring your body for a long time, usually when you get down, there's going to be alarm bells going off. You know, it can be as simple as like cracked heels because you've not been moisturizing, but you could be like frozen shoulder, big deal stuff where you just not been paying attention and so you've not been taking care of your body because you didn't hear the signs of deal them right.

 

Dr. Liz:
And then that creates definitely quite the barrier when it comes to. So any of these physical, emotional, spiritual, experiential or spiritual experiential, what did I miss in there, intellectual when it comes to any of these types of intimacy? If there's a disconnect between your your heart and your mind, between your body and your mind, that makes it really hard to dig in to any of this intimacy or because if you don't feel safe in your own body, how are you going to allow or invite somebody else and feel safe with them that close to your body?

 

Whitni Miller:
Absolutely. Well, you're probably most likely just going go through the motions. So now you're just having sex done to you instead of with you because you're just kind of along for the ride. Because now we're to performance based sex where it's like, does this look good? Does it look good? Does it look good? And I always ask clients, like, does it feel good like this? Like what? She should be asking it doesn't matter how. It looks like really great sex is bad for camera angles because her bodies are so mushed up, you can't see anything anyway. Like so it's not about how it looks. It's always about how does this feel?

 

Dr. Liz:
Yes, I love that pleasure over performance is so, so important. And I agree that yeah, a to make a beautiful porno, they're probably not being very intimate.

 

Whitni Miller:
In that moment. They're so far away you know include some guy doing a. Plank on top and it's just like popup poking away. Right. I mean yeah.

 

Dr. Liz:
Everything that gets going when there's that true intimacy for sure. How, what are a couple pieces of takeaway that you would give to people for just in general improving intimacy like what would be a couple nuggets there.

 

Whitni Miller:
my gosh. Like, yeah, just right back to that performance space. So stop asking yourself, how does this look? Stay with how does this feel? And don't hold your breath. that's a big one. People are always like, I was such short time having an orgasm in summer. I have a hard time being present. I'm like, Do you hold your breath? And they're like, Yeah. I'm like, yeah. Once you're holding your breath, you're in the future. You're like, in my clothes, in my clothes and my clothes and I'm not here, you know, I hear everything's happening here in the present, so breathe and remind partner to breathe. Like if you notice that they're holding their breath, just get in their ear and just be like. Breathe, baby. It's just hot.

 

Dr. Liz:
I think the the staying present part that's such a good I there's a book did you have you read come as you are.

 

Whitni Miller:
Absolutely. Is that what it's called. Yeah. By Emily Nagorski.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yes. Yes. Such a good book about even talking about I think my favorite take away the break in the accelerator for women specifically. And so like you're saying, if if a woman is in a stressed out state, which could be this stressed out state could even be like, I'm trying to reach this orgasm and I'm I'm trying to hurry up, and then you're you're no pun intended. You're screwed at that point because you're not going to reach it at that point.

 

Whitni Miller:
my gosh. How often do you hear that When where It's like the case of I it takes me too long. That that's too long to come with. Well.

 

Dr. Liz:
And statistically speaking, I mean, so for for a female, you are the lucky one in the dynamic that you're in because when you look at statistics, the heterosexual relationship, right. Like the women has the least amount. I think that it is in lesbian relationships that it's the highest.

 

Whitni Miller:
It's like I think it's 86% for lesbians, something like that. And then like, isn't it 65% for the hits for the heterosexual women? Yeah.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yes. And I think also the for faking it also is a lot higher.

 

Whitni Miller:
And I mean, yes.

 

Dr. Liz:
The beauty of that is there's going to be a different level of understanding like in your dynamic. And I don't want to sound ignorant, so please correct me if I'm wrong here, but I think that there is there's just a maybe a different level of patient sensitivity, understanding to like take your time.

 

Whitni Miller:
To an extent there is. I mean, I still have lesbian clients who speak or feel like they take too long. You know, we're in a patriarchal society, so everybody's kind of mimicking that same rhetoric, whether it's a queer relationship or a straight relationship. They feel like they need to have an orgasm in a certain amount of time. And I'm like, Honey, do you have an egg timer? Like, besides, it's like, is somebody making you feel rushed? And I hear an equal amount of stories from these people where their partner is making them feel pressured to have an orgasm because it's abusing their ego. They're like, my, This is me out about it so much. I tell them that it feels good and I'm enjoying myself like I don't have to have an orgasm every time I'm the same way. Like I don't have to have an orgasm every time for sex to be satisfying. And as a general population, we don't understand this. We're keeping score. Like, how many did you have? And we asked that boring ass question after sex. Did you come with this? Well, you. Should like an orgasm. Could feel like, man, it can be painful, it can be unsatisfying. You need to ask your partner what was your favorite part? When did you feel the most? What was the hardest part for you? Like, I had written like, you're.

 

Dr. Liz:
Going to see a post come in.

 

Whitni Miller:
Out there against this content. I will add you in it. Did you come? It tells you nothing. Yet, but I love.

 

Dr. Liz:
That that you're giving options because it does seem like I. Okay. So I do think a follow up question is needed. They're kind of like you guys flop down next to each other or, you know, on each other's chest or whatever the case. A question is going to happen. And so I love what you're saying. What was your favorite part?

 

Whitni Miller:
When did you feel the closest me is one of my favorite sighs or reporter or, you know, what was what do you want to do again? Like. Yeah, yeah.

 

Dr. Liz:
And make that part of the aftercare of that, of checking in. What a difference that would make. Because then it's not about bruising egos, it's not about feeling rejected a lot of women, if their male partner doesn't orgasm, there's feelings of rejection. Yeah, I'm sure you talk to your clients about that all the time.

 

Whitni Miller:
Yes. They feel like their partner's not attracted to them. And I've talked to me in where they feel like the pressure to do it. And, you know, underneath that feeling of obligation, we get decreased arousal. So it's like arousal is, is the main event. That's what my partner always says because she'll tell me, I don't want to come yet. I don't want to come yet. I want to immerse in this. I want to swim in this feeling of arousal. She's like, If I come, then this what I'm basking in, it stops and I have to build back up or it's like it becomes something else.

 

Dr. Liz:
So there's a lot of communication then that goes on of even where you guys are at in like what part of the arousal you're in?

 

Whitni Miller:
Yes, we talk the whole time. She tells me if she wants to build, she wants to immerse in something. She's like, I'm going to stay here. So I try to keep her there, like messing with the sensation, like decreasing it or stopping it. She hates when I stop it. That usually gets my head grabbed. And I was like, You. Said, you didn't want to come. You missed the base. But yes, I'm valid. She wants to come. She tells me when she wants to stop coming. Like I just keep going until she taps out.

 

Dr. Liz:
So that's I mean, where did you guys come into the dynamic that open already, or did you guys build that together?

 

Whitni Miller:
Well, she recognized me from Tik-tok when we matched on Bumble. So when we match is like the first thing she said, she was like, I know who you are. And I was like, I feel like you've got the unfair advantage here. And I was like, I hope you're using this for good and evil. But it was like a lot of pressure on me because who I am on TikTok, I was like, Whoa, I hope you don't think I'm going to like, blow your mind without gathering information about you, because I need to know how your body works before I can really do it well. So that I felt like a lot of pressure on myself. But because of. My. Education and she just had it, she was very open and she's done a lot of personal work. So she was just like this very sturdy, grounded person. So she had a lot of confidence and that just with that, we're able to just go deep with it in that She loves the banter and like the back and forth during like we laugh, we joke and then we and it gets really hot at some parts. It's just really easy because it's so safe. It can just go anywhere.

 

Dr. Liz:
And so you were already doing what you do prior to meeting her then is what? Okay, so you had already been deep diving into this type of work.

 

Whitni Miller:
Absolutely. Yeah.

 

Dr. Liz:
And thank you for normalizing the pressure that comes along with that because yeah, that wants to be every man's joke. When they find out I'm relationship expert and like, yeah.

 

Whitni Miller:
I'm like, know you're hoping that was another question. Did you feel that pressure? my God.

 

Dr. Liz:
Like yes and I, I have people comment on the like on Instagram or in my dreams and they'll be like, my God, you you probably be like such a dream to be in a relationship with. And you would be. And the guy I'm dating is just like over here cracking up as he's he's like, Yeah, a real fucking dream.

 

Whitni Miller:
I'm like, I'm.

 

Dr. Liz:
A human at the end of the day, like, and of course he's.

 

Whitni Miller:
He's teasing. Maybe he's not. But the point.

 

Dr. Liz:
Being no matter if we're an expert in what we do or not like, Yes. Be aware of just like as basic, basic people, the lay person. Be aware that just because we're experts at this does not mean that we are perfect in this.

 

Whitni Miller:
no, we just have a lot of tools. But the work is still the same, you know?

 

Dr. Liz:
Exactly me. I love that. Very well said. When where can people find you and all of your brilliance and all of your wisdom on all your socials?

 

Whitni Miller:
Yeah. So the easiest way to find me is my website. So it's very dash moves dot com and that has all of my social. So if you like getting on social media, I'm on Instagram, I'm really big on Tik Tok. That's where I'm the biggest and all of my playlists are organized on Tik Tok, so I have everything nice and tidy so you don't have to like swim through all of them. You can hit the pleasure base playlist, the attachment theory playlists or different desire styles. That's a big one, because when couples have desire discrepancy, they don't know how to communicate. So one person wants it all the time and one person wants it twice a month. How do we connect and how do we talk? So those playlists are there. And then I have a Patreon community so I can talk uncensored because you have trouble on Instagram like sharing your type of content. Have you any issues on there?

 

Dr. Liz:
I have not as of yet, no. But I, I've had I have friends that have. And on Tik Tok as well.

 

Whitni Miller:
Tik Tok is I've gotten in big trouble over there. This is my second account that I have there, but. I've. Done well on Instagram. It's not been too bad, so I'm glad that you're doing well there.

 

Dr. Liz:
But on the paper you're on, you can speak, you can do whatever.

 

Whitni Miller:
I can pull dildos out, I can do demos like I do oral demos and things like that for a lot of the late blooming community. So like women coming out of the closet like 35 plus, they're scared to death. They're like, I don't know what to do with the woman. And I'm like, Come over to my Patreon, I will show you directly.

 

Dr. Liz:
That's so helpful. That is like and I mean, that's so genuinely, that's such a service that you're providing because I know that that is real. I mean, I talk to people about that. That is such a struggle of like, I don't know what I'm doing. So then there's insecurities that impact intimacy. So yeah, I love that you're, you're providing that knowledge.

 

Whitni Miller:
I'm just trying to decrease the performance anxiety. Yes.

 

Dr. Liz:
Which is much needed. Well, Whitney, thank you again. It really has been such a pleasure, pun intended, that. Time to have you here.

 

Whitni Miller:
I really enjoyed hanging out with you. Thank you so much. This is awesome. Okay.

 

Dr. Liz:
Thanks, Whitney, for that arousing conversation. And thank you all for hanging out. Unrelatable relationships unfiltered. Make sure to subscribe to our YouTube channel. Sign up for my newsletter and find me on Instagram at Dr. Elizabeth Fedrick.