Relatable podcast 

Dr. Kate Balestrieri:
The healthier you are, the more thriving your sex is going to be, no matter what kind of sex you like. Right. Because you'll be able to be present with it in a different way. You'll give yourself more permission to experience all the pleasure that is available to you. Andrew More creative with partners to think about, like, how do I get off?

 

Dr. Kate Balestrieri:
How do you get off? Let's make this happen. Get healthy so you can get off.

 

Dr. Liz:
Okay, look, we just got our whole new tagline for this show. Thank you for that. This is relatable. Relationships, unfiltered. Hey, and welcome back to Relatable Relationships Unfiltered. I'm so excited for our guest today, my friend Dr. Kate. She's a licensed psychologist and certified sex therapist. Dr. Kate is also the founder of Modern Intimacy and a passionate advocate for relational and sexual health and wellness.

 

Dr. Liz:
Dr. Kate and I explore all things teen today, including what we can do about getting rid of the stigma and some ideas for getting more playful in the bedroom. Well, hello, Ms.. Kate. Thank you so much for coming to hang out with me tonight.

 

Dr. Kate Balestrieri:
Well, thanks so much for inviting me. I'm so excited for this conversation and it's always good to hang out with you.

 

Dr. Liz:
Absolutely. And I know our relationship has evolved in such an interesting way. Like you have been such an inspiration for me in so many ways when I found your account. It's been close to a year or so that we've been interacting and just the work that you do and you're how do I even sit like you're just so you.

 

Dr. Liz:
The authenticity of it was just so inspiring. Like, you just don't give a fuck. You're just like, This is me. Take it or leave it. And I so admire that about you.

 

Dr. Kate Balestrieri:
Well, thank you. I think that's the first time I've had that feedback come to me so directly. So I really appreciate that. And I know really, I appreciate that that that message of authenticity is coming through because I think there are a lot of ways to talk about sex and mental health. And I think the more real we are, the more real and the more quickly people can align with that messaging.

 

Dr. Kate Balestrieri:
You know, we we have too much prescription in this world for how to be.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, no, I agree. And especially when it comes to sex and that is why I'm so happy to be having this conversation with you today, and especially about the topic of kink. And so there is so much stigma. There's so many opinions. I want to talk about this from like every different angle today, because even when I think about my clients comments on this from one extreme to the next, and it's just let's start with even like how you would define kink.

 

Dr. Kate Balestrieri:
Yeah, it's a great question we have. Well, let me just say this. In the Western world, we have grown up in an incredibly puritanical culture, even if we don't maintain those beliefs for ourselves. So there's a lot of negative information about sex in general, and especially kink that just sort of floats around in the zeitgeist as common knowledge.

 

Dr. Kate Balestrieri:
And I'm going to put that in air quotes because frankly, a lot of what we know, again, in air quotes is misinformation about kink. So when we think about kink, it really the term really means to sort of, you know, literally if you think of a line, it kicks in a direction. It's not a straight line. So any kind of kinky sex play is anything that would take people outside of a typical heteronormative foreplay to penetrative sex trajectory.

 

Dr. Kate Balestrieri:
We usually would call this vanilla or like people make fun of missionary position as being boring, although it can be super hot. But kink is anything that takes us outside of whatever we believe to be the mainstream.

 

Dr. Liz:
Okay. Got it. So that's even an interesting perspective. So kink for one person is going you don't you can't really define it, it sounds like, because it's going to be really subjective to what you consider to be almost like the baseline of sex.

Dr. Kate Balestrieri:
Yeah, I would say there are degrees of subjectivity here, but typically, whatever is considered vanilla, right? If the mainstream idea of vanilla sex is that heteronormative penis to vagina penetration, PTV, and anything outside of that could be considered kink in a very narrow context, I think some folks have a broader definition of what is considered, quote unquote normal or everyday sex, and that can include things like anal sex, oral sex, other kinds of out, of course, in foreplay.

 

Dr. Kate Balestrieri:
So we might think about kink as something that adds an element of play to amplify intimacy between partners and by intimacy that can be emotional or physical or sexual intimacy. But kink is really designed to amplify the play experience by introducing new or different kinds of avenues for pleasure that may fall outside of that mainstream definition.

 

Dr. Liz:
So even putting it in this context would be really debunking a lot of what the stigma that society puts on this idea of kink. It is so often referred to as like, What the fuck is wrong with that person if they're into this or that or you must, you know, must be really traumatized or what happened to you.

 

Dr. Liz:
Where does that all come from? That we have decided the way that somebody chooses to have sex or not is pathologized?

 

Dr. Kate Balestrieri:
Great question. It comes from a very distinct framing of white supremacy and patriarchy, shaping a lens of purity culture that again, even if folks are not religious and don't ascribe to purity, culture has influenced so much of how we see sex and we have an interesting bifurcation in our culture right now where there is a push for more sex negativity and restrictiveness around sex.

 

Dr. Kate Balestrieri:
We're seeing that play out right now in the political landscape around reproductive rights. But that argument and that political power play is actually a bigger conversation about who has the right to pleasure. And so this has trickled down into what our understanding of acceptable sex is. And there's so much erroneous over coupling of sex and connection that is forced upon us when we think about what constitutes healthy sex.

 

Dr. Kate Balestrieri:
Again, Air Quotes. So I define healthy sex, and most sex therapist would define healthy sex as anything that is pleasurable and consensual. Right? And pleasure can be defined in lots of different ways. So as long as it's a consensual experience, it's healthy. And that really blows the minds of people who want sex to only exist between a man and a woman and in a dark room and for procreation sake.

 

Dr. Kate Balestrieri:
So we've just been given a lot of messages that we accept as truths because most of us are born into the culture of hot water in which we live. And we assume that the facts are what we've been told. But most of us have been lied to about what is really healthy and what isn't.

 

Dr. Liz:
And I mean, I guess that's really across the board with any of our beliefs about anything religion or politics or whatever. A lot of us, how we operate in relationships like that is just been instilled in us. And we often don't even know that a different option exists. So I can see. And then it's just so perpetuated because especially when it's societal or cultural norms, because we all believe it, it just is reinforced in that way.

 

Dr. Kate Balestrieri:
Totally, totally. And we've gotten to a place where we have really over coupled self-worth and social power and social status with what we believe to be sexually healthy and appropriate. So again, factoring in consent as a given, because without consent there is no sex. It's just violence. So when I talk about sex, I'm assuming consent is is in place.

 

Dr. Kate Balestrieri:
You know, we have to frequently talked about like who gets to be considered worthy if they are sexual. And there are so many double standards about who is allowed to have pleasure and who has to get pleasure and give their pleasure away. So when we look at all of that and we think about sort of this landscape type of rigidity around sexuality, it makes a lot of sense to me that people would be scared about kink because they've been told that it's not normal and it deviates from some idea of sex.

 

Dr. Kate Balestrieri:
But the reality is so many people want to be kinky. I think it's something like 70 or 80% of folks endorse kinky fantasies and a desire to bring them into reality. So there are a lot of people out there who are practicing kinky, even if it doesn't align with their social values or who want to. And that's a good thing, because I think when we give ourselves permission to engage in pleasure, then we get to honor ourselves as more holistic beings.

 

Dr. Liz:
I absolutely agree. And I that, I mean, comes up in sessions quite frequently in the sense of I mean, all across the board. But whether I have clients that are religion is a big part of their life. And so they'll they'll talk about maybe desires they have, but that are just so far fetched to them and really processing through the why of that.

Dr. Liz:
But then also I have clients ask me all the time, maybe they'll tell me they're into whatever it is they tell me they're into and they want to know what's wrong with them. So they want to know, you know, is this from my trauma? Is this from my daddy issues? Is this what is the link between trauma and sexual preference if if one does exist?

 

Dr. Kate Balestrieri:
Well, sure. I mean, are arousal templates or erotic orientation, depending on which language you want to use, they all they form. Let me just say that a little differently. What turns us on is established based on a combination of our genetic and biological predispositions and then what we experience in life. So certainly for some people, trauma can have an influential role on what turns them on piece that doesn't make it wrong or bad to be turned on by those things right.

 

Dr. Kate Balestrieri:
We can't really get into our minds and hijack what turns us on in a way that would allow us to necessarily eradicate those things. So I think sometimes when folks do have sexual preferences and fantasies that align with a traumatic experience, they see that as some sort of confirmation that they liked what happened to them. And that's not true.

 

Dr. Kate Balestrieri:
That's not.

 

Dr. Liz:
True. You elaborate on that. That comes up a lot.

 

Dr. Kate Balestrieri:
Of course. Of course. Are bodies respond to stimulation, Right. And our bodies encode stimulation and sensations in the body, even if our mind is screaming. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. So that arousal, non concordance is something that happens very frequently for people who experience different kinds of trauma, especially sexual trauma. And it can be very confusing to them when later their body has now incorporated an element of the trauma into what they want or need to get off.

 

Dr. Kate Balestrieri:
So I think, you know, first people have this idea that if you like something that is rooted in trauma, it's bad and you have to eradicate it. That's not true. What we can do instead is find empowering ways to incorporate that aspect of what turns you on into a new or an empowered Word script that allows you to have a different relationship with the same stimulus.

 

Dr. Liz:
And so then are those when you're working with clients on that, is that something that they are maybe roleplaying with a partner, or is that something they're fantasizing about? Is that something you're rewriting the narrative through EMDR? Like what kind of what approach do you take for that empowerment?

 

Dr. Kate Balestrieri:
Yeah, that's a great question. A lot of normalization, right? Because our our brains and our arousal develop outside of our conscious awareness more often than not. So it's really about learning how to give ourselves permission and to explain the way that the brain works. When we have a traumatic situation, often there are a couple of ways to think about it.

Dr. Kate Balestrieri:
We can engage unconsciously in what's called a repetition compulsion. And when that happens, our our minds are trying to find a winning outcome instead of a traumatic outcome to a similar dynamic that happened when we originally experienced the trauma. So what that can look like in using kink or any kind of sexual experience consciously a way to get out of the unconscious repetition is to consciously lean into what is interesting about that and to take a position of I am in control now.

 

Dr. Kate Balestrieri:
And so for a lot of survivors, Kink gives them a form of healing because it's the opposite of what happened in their traumatic experience, in the sense that there is consent. They do have control to stop it at any time, and that can be incredibly healing. It can give them a corrective experience. So with a safe partner, so many survivors find healing through kink.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, yeah. That is a really powerful point. And that I mean, that is a huge part of this show and even why it's called relatable because this, these topics and you and I know this because we sit with the clients, we sit with the people who struggle with this so alone. And so many times they say to us, like, I've never said this out loud or never tell anyone else this because there's so much shame and embarrassment.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, for enjoying things or being aroused by things that are not, as you're describing what has been what we have been told is okay and is appropriate. And so if we're aroused by anything outside of that, there is so much shame around it. And so I think the insight you just provided of that sense of empowerment, that you can like it and you can like it on your own terms.

 

Dr. Kate Balestrieri:
Absolutely. And that's really the key part, is that kink, whether you are a survivor or not, gives people the ability to play and to play safely. And when we remember that sex is about play, it can help us destigmatize so many different fantasies and things that we're aroused by because we can look at the meaning that it might give us.

 

Dr. Kate Balestrieri:
Right? So, for example, if somebody is interested in temperature play, it might not be that they're turned on by hot wax stripping on their skin, but they might be turned on by the sensation of pain that their skin has when the wax hits it. And so I think we we have a lot of misconception tions and a lot of unnecessary morality attached to the things that turn us on.

 

Dr. Kate Balestrieri:
Because for a lot of folks, it's really about a physical sensation or an emotional experi science. And we use the different kinky constructs to help us evoke those emotional experiences or tap into a pain sensation. Again in a contained, constructed, safe way.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah. What are some different ideas of like, whatever? We wouldn't describe it like, is there different categories of kink or different? I know you said, you know, maybe across the continuum. How would you kind of categorize some of this?

 

Dr. Kate Balestrieri:
gosh. I mean, one of the great things about kink is that it really can't be contained or defined. And it's it's something that King starts would say like, we don't want to box or rules or labels around us. And so, yes, there are some definitions and subcategories that are fairly common right here. Things like cuckolding is a common kinky context.

 

Dr. Kate Balestrieri:
BDSM So fun fact BDSM has multiple meanings. Do you know what the B, the D, the and the M stand for bondage?

 

Dr. Liz:
Maybe that's all I've got, right?

 

Dr. Kate Balestrieri:
I so appreciate you being honest about that. It's something even like I learned this to reading the book The Leather Couch by Stephanie Gala. It's a great book for any providers who are trying to educate themselves on kink, but so the B stands for bondage and then the D has two meanings. So it's bondage and discipline. If you look at the B and the D together or domination and submission, if you're looking at the D in the S together.

 

Dr. Kate Balestrieri:
And then the S also has two meanings. The submission fits with the upper case domination. But when you're looking at it s an m, then it's sadism and masochism.

 

Dr. Liz:
Interesting. Okay. So that I mean, that can open up multiple different categories then and, and then B so I don't cut you off. Was there is there other common categories beyond that or.

 

Dr. Kate Balestrieri:
There's so many different kinds of kink, But if you think about it, kink typically surrounds a few different themes playing with control. So who's in control when we're talking about bondage and discipline, Who has authority when we're talking about a dominance sub? And then when we're talking about sadism and masochism, it's really about sensations and evoking sensations. Who's invoking them, Who's receiving them?

Dr. Liz:
And when we even talk about like, well, I guess I vary. Side note what is your views of how 50 Shades influenced the worlds? In a nutshell, I was thinking about this when I was when I was thinking about the rear and talk about this today because I'm like for the people I've talked to, like, I think for some people it really was actually kind of empowering and normalizing.

 

Dr. Liz:
But then I feel like the overall message was probably not beneficial, like it continued the stigma again of what the fuck is wrong with these people? What is Just in a quick nutshell, I was just thinking about that earlier today. What is your view of how that influenced it?

 

Dr. Kate Balestrieri:
I mean, I agree with what you're saying. I think what the film did well is that it brought the conversation about BDSM out into the the Zeit guys for us to pick apart and to get more clear on it also did give people permission to think more about their sexuality in expansive ways which is great. What it did poorly is a common, I would say, roadblock in the conversation about kink in pop culture.

 

Dr. Kate Balestrieri:
It conflated abusive relationship dynamics with the idea of kink. And that's why the film got so much criticism, because there were a lot of aspects about the way their relationship dynamic flowed that were not, in fact ethical in terms of how folks in a kinky situation would actually set up their play.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah, I think that I found that to be disappointing and how that was even how he was so shame based for her. Like obviously they both had their own shame in that. But that that is so let's just kind of direct it to that because I think that that is so common that when women enjoy that let's say a seven DOM dynamic that it becomes and again, we understand all the cultural and cultural nuances of this, but it's so empowering for the man because of course he wants to be dominant.

 

Dr. Liz:
But then it's like, so shame based for the woman if she wants to be submissive. And again, talking to women who are high powered. Yeah, like being in the submissive role is enjoyable and so what is But then it's shamed. Like what are your what are your views on that?

 

Dr. Kate Balestrieri:
I'm so glad you're talking about this because regardless of gender, I work with so many people in high powered jobs who in the bedroom want to be submissive. And it makes perfect sense because again, our sex is a form of play. And so if people in their everyday lives have a lot of demands on them, they have very responsible roles.

 

Dr. Kate Balestrieri:
They can't let things. They have to make sure everything's buttoned down. That's a lot of pressure. So in sex play, they want a context where they can just lay back a lot of the time and let somebody else take the reins. And so it's an easier entree into pleasure for them when they're submissive, because in essence, they're just letting someone else be in control.

 

Dr. Kate Balestrieri:
And so, again, here's a great example of how when we get curious about the play, do they really in their real lives want to be without power? No. But sex is the one place where they get to throw their hands up in the air and let someone else take the reins. Right. Or the, you know, or the flag or whatever other whatever else they're playing.

 

Dr. Kate Balestrieri:
Right. So, I mean, they get to to live in that space and it's a release for them. So I get this question a lot and I'm gathering you might too. But I'm curious. I work with a lot of high powered women who are executives. They're sea levels. They have a lot of responsibilities. You know, they're they're the domestic engineers at home.

 

Dr. Kate Balestrieri:
They've got all of, you know, all of this responsibility and they identify as feminists and they are absolutely confused and have a lot of shame about the fact that they like to be submissive in bed. Because if I'm a feminist, how can I like something that's so patriarchal? Do you hear that a lot?

 

Dr. Liz:
I mean, yeah, you're talking to her and I think that is life and it's been shamed to me like, But you identify as a feminist, so why would you want somebody to control you or why would you want to be dominated? And I do. I have a lot of my clients that say that as well, and they say it in a way that they're they're embarrassed to say it like.

 

Dr. Liz:
But I am you know, I'm in control in every other area of my life. And for heterosexual. So why would I allow a man to have that much power? And yeah, I hear them on that.

 

Dr. Kate Balestrieri:
Yeah. Yeah. That's the thing about our arousal is it doesn't always make logical sense. Right? And so I want to just highlight that for a lot of folks who like things that go against just socially what they believe in, often that is a big part of why it's so exciting to them because it is that, again, contained space.

 

Dr. Kate Balestrieri:
We're agreeing that outside of this sex play we're equals, right? And that's what allows us to be in this space and to play out this role of submission. I get a lot of men or penis owners who will say things like, I love small penis humiliation. Why? Even even if they don't identify as having a smaller penis, it goes against their ideas of masculinity and the ways that they should be validated as men and so it can be really confusing for them to like this kind of kink.

 

Dr. Kate Balestrieri:
And their partners often don't understand it either. Because why would you want to be shamed for something like that? It goes against how we believe men to be valued Again, I'm putting that in big air quotes for people listening, but that's just it. I can control the humiliation in that setting. I can sit with what it feels like to squirm and be uncomfortable because that's not my everyday experience and it gives them access to something within themselves that feels good.

 

Dr. Liz:
Right? Right. And I like how you keep describing it as play, which is how I would describe it as well and how I think of it. But I don't think I use that term as often and as frequently as you are in this way. And I really like that. That's how you're describing it, because I think that that really shifts the context for a lot of people that maybe we don't have to take it so seriously in that way.

 

Dr. Liz:
Maybe we don't have to read into every, you know, overanalyze every aspect of it. Maybe we are just playing.

 

Dr. Kate Balestrieri:
Totally, totally. Yeah. I think if there's something that folks take away from this conversation, I would hope that it be this sex is not a performance. Right. And I think so often we get stuck in this like performative relationship with sex, and that's how we know that it's not about pleasure when we're performing the act of sex. It's about ego, it's about validation, It's about tell me I'm doing this right and I'm good enough.

 

Dr. Kate Balestrieri:
And so even in role play, right, I would hope that folks remember the play part and don't think about it as a performance because really, sex at its best is a creation of pleasure if you're by yourself and there was solo sex act or when you're partnered, it's a co-creation of a pleasurable experience. And when we can take that mindset, then it's like, Wow, the possibilities for fun and pleasure are endless.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah. And that that performance piece of it I think becomes such a hindrance. I mean, we know it becomes such a hindrance in general and that tying back in to the cultural expectations or on on all genders like that is just that the way, you know, you're supposed to show up a certain way you're supposed to do. How do you see that influence your clients?

 

Dr. Liz:
I mean, we know from a from a very obvious way how it's going to influence it, because if you're in your head, if you're worried about that, but I guess even further than that, how do you help them to come out of that? How do you help them to sort of shift that perspective?

 

Dr. Kate Balestrieri:
Yeah, it's it's tricky because in in society, you know, we're all a part of society, right? We're not this society's not this sort of like other group over here judging everyone. We're all a part of it. And so I think it starts with a shift in considering how you think about sort of the idea of sex and really starting to deconstruct your own personal worth from the way that you are sexual and what you what your motives are for being sexual.

 

Dr. Kate Balestrieri:
A lot of people have just conflated their value with what their relationship to sex is. And I see this in people of all genders, men or people who identify as men, often will over a couple the number of sexual partners or the number of times they've been sexual, or how hard their erection is, how big their penises, how many times their partner has an orgasm with how good of a man they are.

 

Dr. Kate Balestrieri:
Right? It it erroneously tells them something about who they are as a person, as a man. And for a lot of folks who identify as women, you know, it's the opposite. It's like, is my partner having a good time? Am I doing this right? Do they like the way I look and my moaning the right way or not moaning in the right way is my pleasure in service of their pleasure appropriate.

 

Dr. Kate Balestrieri:
And I think when we start to sort of think about centering the experience of pleasure and not judging or shaming people based on the kinds of pleasure or the frequency of pleasure they experience, then we start to shift this whole amoeba like experience that is society. We take personal responsibility back for our pleasure and for our own confidence.

 

Dr. Kate Balestrieri:
And it's easier said than done, but that deconstructing work is really powerful.

 

Dr. Liz:
Do you notice whether with your friends or clients yourself, whatever the case, that there is as much judgment put on sexual partners as this is a tongue twister as we fear the judgment is being put on. Okay. So like as much as people talk about the fear of being judged, do you have that many conversations about people actually judging other people's sexual performance.

 

Dr. Kate Balestrieri:
At sexual performance or their sexual interest and are all of the above.

 

Dr. Liz:
So performance really? I mean, yes, I hear lots of judging of interests for sure, and preferences and things like that. But I guess I'm just trying to like normalize potentially if you come back with a different response than I'm thinking, then I guess I'm not normalizing. I'm just perpetuating eating. But I guess I'm just thinking for the people I've talked to with my friends, my clients, it is so much more often that there's so many more people fearing judgment than there really are people, judging from what I've experienced.

 

Dr. Kate Balestrieri:
Well, I see a pretty clear demarcation. There certainly are a lot of people who judge, and those people, I would say, are very immature and they're under informed about sex. And so are there folks who do it. Yes, I know a lot of the people in my social circles don't. Maybe they don't because they don't feel that way or because they know I'll correct them.

 

Dr. Kate Balestrieri:
I don't know. But certainly it's a lot of the work that I do with clients is helping to challenge any judgment that might come up judgment of themselves or their partners. But I really think, you know, people we say this about addiction all the time, and I'm going to say this about sexual biases. We come into them honestly, right?

 

Dr. Kate Balestrieri:
Like we really are socialized to believe a lot about sex. That takes a lot of unlearning. So I see a lot more people who are much more kind and much more understanding and mature about sex. And so we think there's a lot about experience that can change the way we see sex, because the reality is that not every sexual experience will end in an orgasm for one or both partners.

 

Dr. Kate Balestrieri:
Sometimes their body parts don't don't cooperate with us. Sometimes they make funny noises, sometimes we smell. That's just all part of sex. And like when we can just stop the judgment around that and make room for just the realities of what it means to be a sexual human. You know, I think when when you have enough sex and you kind of get over those things and just understand that there's like a human, a participating in the experience with you.

 

Dr. Liz:
In a conversation I'm going to be having with a good friend here in a couple episodes coming up. But I want to kind of touch on just for a minute with you is something that I have noticed recently, is that people don't talk about sex together. So whether you just started you have a new sexual partner or you've been in a relationship for ten years, it's hit me like straight in the face recently that people are just do not talk to their sexual partners about preferences or desires or kinks or fantasies.

 

Dr. Liz:
I get how stupid that sounds. That that blew my mind. So much. But literally I was like, Y'all don't talk about sex with who you're having sex with.

 

Dr. Kate Balestrieri:
I know. Well, I think, you know, you and I are psychologists, so we talk about a lot of things that most people might not talk about.

 

Dr. Liz:
That's what they keep telling me. And I'm like, No, but I haven't been a psychologist my entire adult life. I'm talking about sex.

 

Dr. Kate Balestrieri:
Yeah, Yeah. But that might be a part of like your overall openness, right? That led you into this work. But but also so many people get the message directly and indirectly that it's impolite to talk about sex or that they should only talk about it with a marriage partner or that I think sometimes even there's some cognitive dissonance.

 

Dr. Kate Balestrieri:
Like if I don't talk about it, it means I'm not doing it, and that means I'm good, right? For some people, especially if they have some mixed feelings about what they like sexually, or think that their partner will judge them. You know, fear is a big motivator in silence around this topic, but I'm a huge proponent of helping folks break that tradition.

 

Dr. Kate Balestrieri:
And I encourage my clients to find safe people to have these conversations with whether especially if they're your sexual partners, but also like friends. And let's remember that sex is a part of who we are, whether we're having sex or not, Right? Not being a sexual person is also a part of who we are. So being able to just recognize that integration in our whole personhood is so important.

 

Dr. Kate Balestrieri:
And when people do take the leap and practice non judgment around what they are saying and what they're hearing, then I think they can really find a lot of liberation.

 

Dr. Liz:
How do you help your clients to kind of start talking about it if that's not something they're comfortable with?

 

Dr. Kate Balestrieri:
Well, we explore what they're not comfortable about. Most people want to talk about it if they feel it's safe. So we might start by identifying who are the safer people in their circles and who aren't right and using discretion is an important thing here, because there are still folks who will exhibit judgment or have all kinds of other big reactions.

 

Dr. Kate Balestrieri:
So, you know, thinking about how to evaluate if someone is a safe person to have this conversation with is important, and also seeking out other like minded people who are open to having the conversations about sex can be a good start, even if you choose to have those conversations anonymously, like in different message boards or groups online, there are always there will always be outliers who maybe make things less comfortable.

 

Dr. Kate Balestrieri:
But for the most part, in these types of forums, it's about people wanting to have real conversations about these topics so they can be a place where people can practice for sure.

 

Dr. Liz:
And what about for when you're working maybe with a couple and they have just such differ int preferences or fantasies or what they want to be doing when it's just on completely different ends of the spectrum, you know, And even for people listening and that like where should they start with that?

 

Dr. Kate Balestrieri:
It's a great question. There's a couple of places that folks can start. I was just having this conversation on my podcast today actually about how couples can introduce kink into their dynamic. One is to create a culture between the two of them of safety and non judgment, right? I think that's really important right off the bat to talk about, Hey, I've got some things that I'm kind of curious about or wow, I saw this in a movie the other day and I didn't hate it as much as I thought I would write.

 

Dr. Kate Balestrieri:
Like, Are you open to having a conversation about what that even consists of and whether or not it would be something that's interesting to both of us. So that can be a place to start just watching movies or watching porn that's around a topic that's interesting to see how you both feel and if it's even something, you know, do it in a non-sexual way.

 

Dr. Kate Balestrieri:
So so that it's safe for you both to say no if it's not something that is actually curious or interesting to you. But couples can download a yes no maybe list. We have one on my website that has just a bunch of different kinds of sexual activities, and each of you sits down and says, yes, I know, I'm interested in that.

 

Dr. Kate Balestrieri:
Or No, I definitely know that's a deal breaker for me, or maybe in the right context, or maybe I need more information and then you can compare notes and see where you overlap and where there are big differences. And sometimes there are big differences and mismatched sexual interests getting curious with each other is the starting point to bridging that gap.

 

Dr. Kate Balestrieri:
Because when you're curious about what is it about bondage that that is interesting to you, you might learn that it's not really about the experience of being tortured, for example, but it's about being restrained in a way that removes off of your mind, right? You can clear your mind and clear the to do list because you literally can't do anything when you're restrained.

 

Dr. Kate Balestrieri:
So couples might say, okay, well, I have a negative reaction to restraining you, but I wonder if maybe what if I swaddled you instead and wrapped you up in blankets? That's an easier access point. Would that have the same energy for you? And they might say, yeah, I think so. Or I don't know, let's try it. Or No, I don't think so.

 

Dr. Kate Balestrieri:
Right. So getting curious allows couples to find solutions.

 

Dr. Liz:
Yeah. So that I mean, goes back to they you have to be willing to have these open conversations in order to do that. Do you find that if one partner if if there's too much of a disconnect, that it becomes a deal breaker? Like, is that does that come up for you frequently?

 

Dr. Kate Balestrieri:
It does, yeah. I think when when couples have sort of an immovable thing, one person needs this to be aroused and the other person as opposed to it. That can create a lot of disconnection for them, but it doesn't have to mean the end of their relationship. Sometimes those couples will become more expansive in how they define fidelity, right?

 

Dr. Kate Balestrieri:
So they might not have been open to watching porn on their own together, but maybe, you know, partner A really needs to see this specific kind of kink in order to feel aroused. So Partner B says, I'm okay with you watching porn that's specifically about that because I know I can't be present with you for that sort of interest.

 

Dr. Kate Balestrieri:
Or they might consider consensual non-monogamy and create a paradigm which partners can play with like minded partners, but it doesn't jeopardize the solidarity of their primary partnership.

 

Dr. Liz:
Sure. Yeah. And I mean, again, it's it's the conversations and the I guess the even the compromise. I like how you were talking about, you know, if this is one person's desire and the other person is opposed to it, then how what is a step towards it at least? But I guess a lot of that even comes down to to the couples like desire to make it work in general.

 

Dr. Liz:
I think that it's really easy for couples to maybe one or both to really not identify how important physical intimacy is, how important sex is, and in what however, whatever way you define that. But well, yes, it is this pleasurable extra add on, and it's this fun way that we get a naked play with our people. We like whatever that looks like.

 

Dr. Liz:
I believe that it really is more significant than that to to a couple to a partnership and so I guess it you know, sometimes it really comes down to is is this going to be the deal breaker or I don't want to lose you. So what can we figure out here?

 

Dr. Kate Balestrieri:
Yeah, I think there's so glad you're pointing that out because first, I think it's important for each partner in the relationship to decide how important sex is in the relationship. Not every couple prioritizes it the same way, and every couple may have a different prioritization of the importance of sex at different parts in the relationship. We have different chapters in our relationships, so it might be really important at the start, not so important a few years in and then really important again a little bit later.

 

Dr. Kate Balestrieri:
So I think it's important to sort of assess like how how much do we actually both want and need this and that can sort of get you started in the conversation of how much do we want to fight for this relationship, given where we are in the prioritization of this as a whole and in this chapter of our relationship?

 

Dr. Liz:
Sure. And I and that there's not a right or wrong and I'm a big believer in life is about seasons and that partner, you know, maybe you really met each other's needs for a certain amount of time and and maybe you did watch a movie or you saw something that's pique your interest about something and that is the direction you want to go in.

 

Dr. Liz:
And so just moving to a different season, and I think that that's for some couples, that's not the case. They're like, No, we're in this together to the end and to them, I would say then, then you've got to figure it out because I don't think it's fair that one of the partners is consistently being neglected, but it's this requirement of there's no other option.

 

Dr. Kate Balestrieri:
Yeah, that can be really hard because we're we're crossing a lot of other needs in the relationship too. And some people sort of define their happiness by whether or not they make a marriage work. And so their priority is not necessarily the health of that relationship, but more so the social status of staying married. So people have to be willing to get really honest with themselves when there's this kind of a discrepancy, because you may find that in some of your values, you're super aligned and that gives you enough momentum to make it work and to find a negotiation that allows you both to get enough of your needs met.

 

Dr. Kate Balestrieri:
And it's worth it. And sometimes it's just not sure.

 

Dr. Liz:
Sure. Circling back to King in the last few minutes that we have left, do you find that there are certain personality types that are more interested in King than others?

 

Dr. Kate Balestrieri:
So I'm hesitant to talk about any sort of like diagnostic occurrences because I don't want to perpetuate stereotypes about King being pathological or healthy. But what the research does say overall is that folks who are open to King tend to be more open minded in general. They tend to be more well-adjusted in their lives and their relationships tend to have better communication.

 

Dr. Kate Balestrieri:
They tend to honor boundaries more effectively. So that can fit a lot of different kinds of personality types, introverts, extroverts, you know, all of the different constellations on the Enneagram and the Myers-Briggs. But, you know, it's important to just sort of remember that kink is something that happens across pretty much every demographic. And it's not unique to any one group of people.

 

Dr. Liz:
And I was hoping you were going to say that because I think that is something else that comes up a lot when when I'm working, you know, I specialize in relationships. And so that is when I'm working in that relational dynamic of working with an individual. And there may be working through their attachment style and they're trying to become healthier and more adaptive in general.

 

Dr. Liz:
And I frequently here. But that doesn't mean I want to have boring sex. And so I'm glad the fact that I guess that's what I was hoping you're going to say because I'm I'm like, no, they don't. That that's not a thing.

 

Dr. Kate Balestrieri:
No, no.

 

Dr. Liz:
The healthier you are does not equal the more boring your sex is going to become.

 

Dr. Kate Balestrieri:
my God. You know, just the opposite, right? The healthy, the healthier you are, the more thriving your sex is going to be, no matter what kind of sex you like. Right? Because you'll be able to be present with it in a different way. You'll give yourself more permission to experience all the pleasure that is available to you.

 

Dr. Kate Balestrieri:
And you're more creative with partners to think about, like, how do I get off? How do you get off? Let's make this happen.

 

Dr. Liz:
Absolutely. Yes. So you guys heard it here. Get healthy so you can have better sex. They they go hand in hand. They're not opposing.

 

Dr. Kate Balestrieri:
You know, things so you can get off.

 

Dr. Liz:
Okay. Exactly what if we just got our whole new tagline for this show? Thank you for that. We're good people. Thank you, Kate. Social media website. Where can you be found?

 

Dr. Kate Balestrieri:
Yeah And probably the best place is my website, Modern Intimacy dot com. We've got a blog with like 150 different articles on it, lots of free downloadable resources. And then on social media, I'm on Instagram and Tik Tok at Dr. Kate Balance, Dreary and on Instagram at the Modern Intimacy and TikTok app, Modern Intimacy. And please, please check out my two podcast, Modern Intimacy.

 

Dr. Kate Balestrieri:
You can sense the theme here, and then I'm also launching a new podcast called Without Consent, which is a deconstruction of sexual violence in the true crime genre that launches December six.

 

Dr. Liz:
Wow. Okay. And The Your Modern Intimacy podcast. What is that touch on?

 

Dr. Kate Balestrieri:
It's all about topics related to social issues, mental health, sex, relationships and healing from trauma. So it's sort of a potpourri. We cover everything.

 

Dr. Liz:
Okay, Well, very good. Yes. And go check out her social media. Such good stuff. So informative on just so many different levels, like you just touched on so many different things. So I so greatly respect you and admire you. And I am grateful for your time tonight. Thank you so much for hanging out with me.

 

Dr. Kate Balestrieri:
Thank you so much for having me here. I'm really excited to have this conversation with you. Thank you.

 

Dr. Liz:
Thank you. Thank you again to Dr. Kate for spending time with me today talking all about sex. And thank you for joining us on this episode of Relatable Relationships. Unfiltered. Make sure to subscribe on YouTube and give us a follow on at Dr. Elizabeth Frederick.